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CBs vs Pass Rushers

tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

I'm probally looking towards free agency and if there is a free agency there's some pretty good options. Hali, Woodley

I'm not against taking Von Miller or Quinn I just want the best player available. There's a very high bust ratio amongst pass rushers and the difference between Brian Orakpo and Aaron Maybin is only one pick. I know that goes for every position but you can't pick people just because you have the need.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

I'm probally looking towards free agency and if there is a free agency there's some pretty good options. Hali, Woodley

I'm not against taking Von Miller or Quinn I just want the best player available. There's a very high bust ratio amongst pass rushers and the difference between Brian Orakpo and Aaron Maybin is only one pick. I know that goes for every position but you can't pick people just because you have the need.

Hey, I'm all for getting a veteran like Hali; I'm just worried about the ability to secure someone like him (or Woodley, or even Wimbley) given the unknown status/timing of the CBA. But I think when need, talent and value converge (and I believe that's the case for Miller and Quinn), you go ahead and make that draft pick IMO.

That said, I can see both of those guys gone by #7, so we may not have to worry about them.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.

The 7th pick should be a guy who can change the game. Whether a CB or an OLB, he should be one of those guys who has the best chance to dominate a game. Polomolu is a demon, running all over the field and knocking the heck out of people. Mathews in Green Bay is also unstoppable at times. I would take either of those guys at #7. The 9ers need the best player available and if it's a tie between a OLB and a CB I would think the 9ers have better CBs than pass rushers on the current roster.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.

The 7th pick should be a guy who can change the game. Whether a CB or an OLB, he should be one of those guys who has the best chance to dominate a game. Polomolu is a demon, running all over the field and knocking the heck out of people. Mathews in Green Bay is also unstoppable at times. I would take either of those guys at #7. The 9ers need the best player available and if it's a tie between a OLB and a CB I would think the 9ers have better CBs than pass rushers on the current roster.

WE TOOK A GAME CHANGER AT 6 V.D.... A tight end, but one that has a skill set the nfl has never seen. Now the question is who's that game changer in this draft is it miller, or prince... cam johnson... who's the guy we need bpa, and we need to fill a hole with this pick. No qb is worth the spot, so that leaves us with either cb, or Passrusher. Depends on who Jim, Trent, and Vic think will fit best in the system.
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.

The 7th pick should be a guy who can change the game. Whether a CB or an OLB, he should be one of those guys who has the best chance to dominate a game. Polomolu is a demon, running all over the field and knocking the heck out of people. Mathews in Green Bay is also unstoppable at times. I would take either of those guys at #7. The 9ers need the best player available and if it's a tie between a OLB and a CB I would think the 9ers have better CBs than pass rushers on the current roster.

WE TOOK A GAME CHANGER AT 6 V.D.... A tight end, but one that has a skill set the nfl has never seen. Now the question is who's that game changer in this draft is it miller, or prince... cam johnson... who's the guy we need bpa, and we need to fill a hole with this pick. No qb is worth the spot, so that leaves us with either cb, or Passrusher. Depends on who Jim, Trent, and Vic think will fit best in the system.

VD was a pretty good pick I think, even though he has tried our patience at times.

Quinn vs Miller or Peterson vs Prince? But then there's Green! Is he the biggest game changer? Glad it's Baalke and Harbaugh making this decsion!
Miller does remind me of lawson... I'm not sure about him, he looks as if he just tries the edge every play he's going to have to learn some inside move and bulk up!
Originally posted by tjd808185:


I give you the Giants. All they had was that defensive line and it won them the Super Bowl. So if you find me three great pass rushers with one of them being a Hall of Famer I'll go your route. Might mean we have to switch to the 4-3 though.

As for the Jets those pass rushers aren't anything special and you know it. It's a below average tandem. It might be better than ours but that's not saying much and that's not saying we can't upgrade the defensive line without using the 7th pick on it.

Maybe you should look at Pittsburgh and see how they did it.

Their front 7 can at least give them a push. Manny and Parys cannot do that. If it wasn't for Justin Smith we'd be even worse.

Look at the league...how many shut down corners are there? Revis? Asomugha? Who else? Bailey?

How many good pass rushers out there? Merriman(when he was healthy), Dumervil, Harrison, Woodley, Phillips, Ware, Spencer, Matthews, Wake and I'm sure I'm forgetting some obvious ones.

It's very difficult to find a type of corner who can completely shut down the other teams #1. I like Peterson a ton but I'm not even sure if he can be that type of player. I think Prince will be a good corner but he won't be on that level. The fact that some people talk about converting him to a safety shows just that.

You improve the pass rush and the guys who are there get better. Take a corner later in the draft and they'll play better.

Look at the Packers. They got Clay Matthews and their defense improved big time. You think Tramon Williams is actually a good player?

And you keep talking about the Jets...let's not forget that same Jets defense gave up 45 points to the same Patriots team earlier in the year and 38 points to Chicago.

The team with a good pass rush were never that bad.
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by tjd808185:


I give you the Giants. All they had was that defensive line and it won them the Super Bowl. So if you find me three great pass rushers with one of them being a Hall of Famer I'll go your route. Might mean we have to switch to the 4-3 though.

As for the Jets those pass rushers aren't anything special and you know it. It's a below average tandem. It might be better than ours but that's not saying much and that's not saying we can't upgrade the defensive line without using the 7th pick on it.

Maybe you should look at Pittsburgh and see how they did it.

Their front 7 can at least give them a push. Manny and Parys cannot do that. If it wasn't for Justin Smith we'd be even worse.

Look at the league...how many shut down corners are there? Revis? Asomugha? Who else? Bailey?

How many good pass rushers out there? Merriman(when he was healthy), Dumervil, Harrison, Woodley, Phillips, Ware, Spencer, Matthews, Wake and I'm sure I'm forgetting some obvious ones.

It's very difficult to find a type of corner who can completely shut down the other teams #1. I like Peterson a ton but I'm not even sure if he can be that type of player. I think Prince will be a good corner but he won't be on that level. The fact that some people talk about converting him to a safety shows just that.

You improve the pass rush and the guys who are there get better. Take a corner later in the draft and they'll play better.

Look at the Packers. They got Clay Matthews and their defense improved big time. You think Tramon Williams is actually a good player?

And you keep talking about the Jets...let's not forget that same Jets defense gave up 45 points to the same Patriots team earlier in the year and 38 points to Chicago.

The team with a good pass rush were never that bad.

It's not like Green Bay's secondary got good overnight. They've been a good *ss secondary for awhile now and they're anchored by Charles Woodson not Tramon Williams. Keep in mind that secondary led the league in picks in 2009. With the stud you can get some system guys to compliment him.

You make some good points, but you should know that defensive ends is a hard position to project, and there's alot of busts and alot of guys who take 4-5 years to finally emerge. The Jets tried to get that stud pass rusher with the 6th pick in the draft in Vernon Gholdston but he flopped.

Lol at your final point. Every defense gives up a ton of points once or twice. Remember the record breaking great Baltimore defense in 2001. Hey they gave up 30+ points to Green Bay. It happens.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?
Originally posted by tjd808185:


It's not like Green Bay's secondary got good overnight. They've been a good *ss secondary for awhile now and they're anchored by Charles Woodson not Tramon Williams. Keep in mind that secondary led the league in picks in 2009. With the stud you can get some system guys to compliment him.

You make some good points, but you should know that defensive ends is a hard position to project, and there's alot of busts and alot of guys who take 4-5 years to finally emerge. The Jets tried to get that stud pass rusher with the 6th pick in the draft in Vernon Gholdston but he flopped.

Lol at your final point. Every defense gives up a ton of points once or twice. Remember the record breaking great Baltimore defense in 2001. Hey they gave up 30+ points to Green Bay. It happens.

It shouldn't happen based on your comments. If the Jets corners are so good they can stop Manning and Brady and their offenses then they should be able to destroy lesser qbs/teams.

The record breaking defense was in 2000 btw. And before you look yes they did give up 1 game of 30+ points but that was to record setting day from Jimmy Smith. The most they gave up the rest of the year was 23 points.

It just further proves my point that with a pass rush you usually have better defensive output. If you rely on your corners to bail you out defensively and your pass rush struggles the odds of your defense getting beat goes up.

You're missing my main point here.

1 guy pressures the QB and the rest of the defense looks better because of an early/bad throw

Or you need to make sure ALL of the dbs have great coverage so the QB cannot find anyone open and gets sacked due to great coverage.

What do you think has a higher success rate?
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by tjd808185:


It's not like Green Bay's secondary got good overnight. They've been a good *ss secondary for awhile now and they're anchored by Charles Woodson not Tramon Williams. Keep in mind that secondary led the league in picks in 2009. With the stud you can get some system guys to compliment him.

You make some good points, but you should know that defensive ends is a hard position to project, and there's alot of busts and alot of guys who take 4-5 years to finally emerge. The Jets tried to get that stud pass rusher with the 6th pick in the draft in Vernon Gholdston but he flopped.

Lol at your final point. Every defense gives up a ton of points once or twice. Remember the record breaking great Baltimore defense in 2001. Hey they gave up 30+ points to Green Bay. It happens.

It shouldn't happen based on your comments. If the Jets corners are so good they can stop Manning and Brady and their offenses then they should be able to destroy lesser qbs/teams.

The record breaking defense was in 2000 btw. And before you look yes they did give up 1 game of 30+ points but that was to record setting day from Jimmy Smith. The most they gave up the rest of the year was 23 points.

It just further proves my point that with a pass rush you usually have better defensive output. If you rely on your corners to bail you out defensively and your pass rush struggles the odds of your defense getting beat goes up.

You're missing my main point here.

1 guy pressures the QB and the rest of the defense looks better because of an early/bad throw

Or you need to make sure ALL of the dbs have great coverage so the QB cannot find anyone open and gets sacked due to great coverage.

What do you think has a higher success rate?

they only have revis he guarded wayne he had 1 receptiion for 1 yard

wayne and manning is probally the top tandemn in the nfl
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Right now, Houston appears to be a reach in the mid-rounds, but if the 49ers do their homework and feel he's worthy of it, I'd be fine.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
tjd - If you're proposing we trade back a bit and grab a pass rusher in the mid-first as opposed to #7 overall, I'm onboard. But if you mean grabbing someone with later picks in this draft, who do you think would be around in the 2nd (or later) that would be considered an "impactful" pass rusher?

although could be taken in the first easily....your thoughts on Justin Houston?

Right now, Houston appears to be a reach in the mid-rounds, but if the 49ers do their homework and feel he's worthy of it, I'd be fine.

I hope you mean mid-first. He'd be a steal at 45.
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
Miller does remind me of lawson... I'm not sure about him, he looks as if he just tries the edge every play he's going to have to learn some inside move and bulk up!

Lawson is under-rated because his strength is not rushing the passer. He is extremely athletic and good at all other aspects of the game. If the 9ers can find a pass rush terror to work with Lawson the team will have a great LBing group. Lawson, Spikes, Willis and Rookie with Brooks, Bowman, McKillop and Laboy as backups is quite a crew.

Finding that pass rushing guy would seem to be a priority, unless the Fangio system can manufature a rush as has been mentioned. Stanford used a lot of movement to confuse the O, so perhaps they have what they need?

Its fun to play with options...how bout Willis, Spikes, McKillop and Bowman?