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CBs vs Pass Rushers

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Throwing first round picks at OLB is not how the Steelers developed their pass rush. They have system guys and those vaunted pass rushers haven't always had great success when they leave that system. You can make the same case with Baltimore and Adilius Thomas.

The heart and soul of Pittsburgh is Polamulu. With Troy they're top 5 without him they've been average.

I don't think there's a wrong way here. Just look at the Jets. Hands down built around Revis and they stopped the 2 best QB's in the league in their own house without a good outside pass rusher.

Wow - good point.

Don't know if Prince is that guy however.

Nonetheless - good analysis.
It's simple.

Pass rush will make average corners much better.

You need to have top level corners all over the field to get coverage sacks. What the Jets did to the Patriots in their game is very rare.

We are a 3-4 Defense whose top 2 sack guys were a DE and ILB.

That should not happen.

All it takes is one good pass rusher to pressure a qb into bad throws. If you don't have a pass rush one of the corners will get beat.
Originally posted by genus49:
It's simple.

Pass rush will make average corners much better.

You need to have top level corners all over the field to get coverage sacks. What the Jets did to the Patriots in their game is very rare.

We are a 3-4 Defense whose top 2 sack guys were a DE and ILB.

That should not happen.

All it takes is one good pass rusher to pressure a qb into bad throws. If you don't have a pass rush one of the corners will get beat.
plain and simple.
Originally posted by genus49:
It's simple.

Pass rush will make average corners much better.

You need to have top level corners all over the field to get coverage sacks. What the Jets did to the Patriots in their game is very rare.

We are a 3-4 Defense whose top 2 sack guys were a DE and ILB.

That should not happen.

All it takes is one good pass rusher to pressure a qb into bad throws. If you don't have a pass rush one of the corners will get beat.

Good corners allow you to blitz more often and more creatively. Green Bay, the Jets they blitz all of the time because they know those corners can cover man to man. Great corners/ safeties take away options. You take Troy off Pittsburgh and they're an average defense.

Did you guys watch those Jets games? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were scared to death to challenge Revis. Best QB's in the league too. You know how much easier it is to gameplan for someone when they won't even look at their best option.

I'm not arguing for Patterson or Prince or Von Miller I just want the best player because you give me an elite player and you can win around them. Don't buy this pass rushers more important than corners stuff. Elite players and great coaching gets you to the promise land.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Throwing first round picks at OLB is not how the Steelers developed their pass rush. They have system guys and those vaunted pass rushers haven't always had great success when they leave that system. You can make the same case with Baltimore and Adilius Thomas.

The heart and soul of Pittsburgh is Polamulu. With Troy they're top 5 without him they've been average.

I don't think there's a wrong way here. Just look at the Jets. Hands down built around Revis and they stopped the 2 best QB's in the league in their own house without a good outside pass rusher.

wow...you're way off here man.

Saying the Steelers haven't gotten their pass rushers in the first round means little. Right now there are more 3-4 defensive teams than ever. For a while there there were like 2-3 teams who ran the defense the Steelers being one of them. They were able to take the so called "tweeners" and turn them into great OLB picks. That is no longer the case. They got Woodley because he dropped due to his small size. Harrison was a rare find who developed later.

Troy does help their defense a lot but he's helped by the talented linebackers in front of him. Put him on the 49ers and he's not nearly the player he is with the Stelers.

You mention what the Jets did as a good example? See my post above. They played 2 terrific games against receivers who they matched up against very well. The Steelers offered issues for them because they're faster receivers as opposed to the possession guys the Colts and Pats had.

The Jets also have a pretty decent front 7. They may not be on the level of the Steelers but they're pretty good.

As for the players leaving the system and not playing well - Joey Porter had his best sack season with the Dolphins after leaving the Steelers.

Like I said, to get a pass rush you just need one guy to pressure the QB. If you only have one top corner there is still the rest of the field that leaves you liable.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by genus49:
It's simple.

Pass rush will make average corners much better.

You need to have top level corners all over the field to get coverage sacks. What the Jets did to the Patriots in their game is very rare.

We are a 3-4 Defense whose top 2 sack guys were a DE and ILB.

That should not happen.

All it takes is one good pass rusher to pressure a qb into bad throws. If you don't have a pass rush one of the corners will get beat.

Good corners allow you to blitz more often and more creatively. Green Bay, the Jets they blitz all of the time because they know those corners can cover man to man. Great corners/ safeties take away options. You take Troy off Pittsburgh and they're an average defense.

Did you guys watch those Jets games? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were scared to death to challenge Revis. Best QB's in the league too. You know how much easier it is to gameplan for someone when they won't even look at their best option.

I'm not arguing for Patterson or Prince or Von Miller I just want the best player because you give me an elite player and you can win around them. Don't buy this pass rushers more important than corners stuff. Elite players and great coaching gets you to the promise land.

You're acting like the Jets can't get a pass rush at all. What happened with the Steelers? Revis didn't even match up against Wallace til Cromartie got banged up.

What the Jets did happens very infrequently. How about what the Giants did to NE in 07? That was more impressive. Who were their corners?

Look at Oakland - sure teams avoid throwing against Aso but that leaves the rest of the field. If there is no pass rush an average, let a lone a great QB will find an open guy.

The depth at corner in this draft is much better than at OLB. We need to fix the pass rush on this team. It makes the whole secondary better.

Blitzing can get you killed by a good qb. If you can have one guy who can consistently get pressure on the QB it makes everyone else better.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by genus49:
It's simple.

Pass rush will make average corners much better.

You need to have top level corners all over the field to get coverage sacks. What the Jets did to the Patriots in their game is very rare.

We are a 3-4 Defense whose top 2 sack guys were a DE and ILB.

That should not happen.

All it takes is one good pass rusher to pressure a qb into bad throws. If you don't have a pass rush one of the corners will get beat.

Good corners allow you to blitz more often and more creatively. Green Bay, the Jets they blitz all of the time because they know those corners can cover man to man. Great corners/ safeties take away options. You take Troy off Pittsburgh and they're an average defense.

Did you guys watch those Jets games? Peyton Manning and Tom Brady were scared to death to challenge Revis. Best QB's in the league too. You know how much easier it is to gameplan for someone when they won't even look at their best option.

I'm not arguing for Patterson or Prince or Von Miller I just want the best player because you give me an elite player and you can win around them. Don't buy this pass rushers more important than corners stuff. Elite players and great coaching gets you to the promise land.

I don't know if I'd go that far. The problem I sawy with Peyton and Tom Brady is that the Jets scheme was as much part of that. I think in both cases, the Jets may not have a premiere but Jason Taylor even old is better than any OLB we have on our team. My problem with the 49ers is that their pass-rush is so poor, that even when they blitz it's completely in effective. I think it's an issue of relative talent. You're right the Jets build around Revis, but it's not like the rest of the defense in terms of talent is non-functional. None of our OLBs start for the Jets or Steelers even make the team. I'd say that Spencer and Clements in both places get on the field - maybe not as the #1 CBs.

The problem is that you can't draft elite players every year and I'm much more comfortable with establishing a system and grabbing talent to make that system work effectively. However, I do know that controlling the LOS is more effective when the talent of your team is roughly even throughout. The team that impacts the LOS more usually wins the game.
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Throwing first round picks at OLB is not how the Steelers developed their pass rush. They have system guys and those vaunted pass rushers haven't always had great success when they leave that system. You can make the same case with Baltimore and Adilius Thomas.

The heart and soul of Pittsburgh is Polamulu. With Troy they're top 5 without him they've been average.

I don't think there's a wrong way here. Just look at the Jets. Hands down built around Revis and they stopped the 2 best QB's in the league in their own house without a good outside pass rusher.

wow...you're way off here man.

Saying the Steelers haven't gotten their pass rushers in the first round means little. Right now there are more 3-4 defensive teams than ever. For a while there there were like 2-3 teams who ran the defense the Steelers being one of them. They were able to take the so called "tweeners" and turn them into great OLB picks. That is no longer the case. They got Woodley because he dropped due to his small size. Harrison was a rare find who developed later.

Troy does help their defense a lot but he's helped by the talented linebackers in front of him. Put him on the 49ers and he's not nearly the player he is with the Stelers.

You mention what the Jets did as a good example? See my post above. They played 2 terrific games against receivers who they matched up against very well. The Steelers offered issues for them because they're faster receivers as opposed to the possession guys the Colts and Pats had.

The Jets also have a pretty decent front 7. They may not be on the level of the Steelers but they're pretty good.

As for the players leaving the system and not playing well - Joey Porter had his best sack season with the Dolphins after leaving the Steelers.

Like I said, to get a pass rush you just need one guy to pressure the QB. If you only have one top corner there is still the rest of the field that leaves you liable.

What was Big Ben's Qb rating for that game? Come on now. Pittsburgh won because the Jets excellent run defense didn't show up, and they lost 7 points on a turnover.

You play at Indy, at New England, and at Pittsburgh. That's just too steep of a road for anyone to overcome.

Troy Polumulu might not be as effective here but without a good defensive scheme that goes for pretty much anyone. You put Clay Matthews here he's not defensive MVP either. But this is a fact. Polamulu gets hurt and that vaunted Pittsburgh d gets pretty average.

As for Aso I can find good pass rushers on sh*tty defenses too. I do like your Giants point because you're right that defensive line is the only reason they're holding a Super Bowl ring,. I give you that point. But building that is easier said than done.

[ Edited by tjd808185 on Jan 31, 2011 at 13:52:39 ]
Originally posted by tjd808185:


What was Big Ben's Qb rating for that game? Come on now. Pittsburgh won because the Jets excellent run defense didn't show up, and they lost 7 points on a turnover.

You play at Indy, at New England, and at Pittsburgh. That's just too steep of a road for anyone to overcome.

Troy Polumulu might not be as effective here but without a good defensive scheme that goes for pretty much anyone. You put Clay Matthews here he's not defensive MVP either. But this is a fact. Polamulu gets hurt and that vaunted Pittsburgh gets pretty average.

Do you really need a reminder that Troy isn't a corner? The Steelers have Ike Taylor, McFadden and Randall Gay as their top 3 corners I believe. Hardly anything to write home about.

You didn't answer my question, who did the Giants have the year they shut down the Patriots offense - best offense of all time?

You can't have everything at once. I don't see Amakumara on the same level as Aso or Revis so why add a good but not great corner onto a defense which has no pass rush.

Once again...a 3-4 D with a DE and ILB being 1 and 2 in sacks is doing it wrong.

FYI...on the Jets the leaders are

Byron Thomas
Calvin Pace
Jason Taylor

All are 3-4 OLBs. Not great sack numbers but all 3 of those guys are better rushers than Lawson or Haralson. Hell those two were 5th and 6th on our team.

That's just terrible. Spencer, Clements and Brown are better corners than a lot of teams have. We don't need a top 10 corner to improve this defense. We need a pass rush.
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by tjd808185:


What was Big Ben's Qb rating for that game? Come on now. Pittsburgh won because the Jets excellent run defense didn't show up, and they lost 7 points on a turnover.

You play at Indy, at New England, and at Pittsburgh. That's just too steep of a road for anyone to overcome.

Troy Polumulu might not be as effective here but without a good defensive scheme that goes for pretty much anyone. You put Clay Matthews here he's not defensive MVP either. But this is a fact. Polamulu gets hurt and that vaunted Pittsburgh gets pretty average.

Do you really need a reminder that Troy isn't a corner? The Steelers have Ike Taylor, McFadden and Randall Gay as their top 3 corners I believe. Hardly anything to write home about.

You didn't answer my question, who did the Giants have the year they shut down the Patriots offense - best offense of all time?

You can't have everything at once. I don't see Amakumara on the same level as Aso or Revis so why add a good but not great corner onto a defense which has no pass rush.

Once again...a 3-4 D with a DE and ILB being 1 and 2 in sacks is doing it wrong.

FYI...on the Jets the leaders are

Byron Thomas
Calvin Pace
Jason Taylor

All are 3-4 OLBs. Not great sack numbers but all 3 of those guys are better rushers than Lawson or Haralson. Hell those two were 5th and 6th on our team.

That's just terrible. Spencer, Clements and Brown are better corners than a lot of teams have. We don't need a top 10 corner to improve this defense. We need a pass rush.

I give you the Giants. All they had was that defensive line and it won them the Super Bowl. So if you find me three great pass rushers with one of them being a Hall of Famer I'll go your route. Might mean we have to switch to the 4-3 though.

As for the Jets those pass rushers aren't anything special and you know it. It's a below average tandem. It might be better than ours but that's not saying much and that's not saying we can't upgrade the defensive line without using the 7th pick on it.

Maybe you should look at Pittsburgh and see how they did it.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
IMO, with the way the game is played today, you can get away with having less-than-great talent at CB, if you have a great pass rush (see the Steelers, Packers and Ravens). However, you can have HOF talent at CB, but if you can't generate a strong, consistent pass rush, those CBs will eventually get burned.

Throwing first round picks at OLB is not how the Steelers developed their pass rush. They have system guys and those vaunted pass rushers haven't always had great success when they leave that system. You can make the same case with Baltimore and Adilius Thomas.

The heart and soul of Pittsburgh is Polamulu. With Troy they're top 5 without him they've been average.

I don't think there's a wrong way here. Just look at the Jets. Hands down built around Revis and they stopped the 2 best QB's in the league in their own house without a good outside pass rusher.

True, but the Steelers didn't need too for years, since there were so few 3-4 teams. But even more to your point, they have the kind of consistency in their front office/head coaching spot that truly allows them to draft system-specific players year-after-year (usually ones that can be found later), and allow them to be groomed for a few years or so and indoctrinated in the Steeler way, then get plugged right in to their defense without skipping a beat.

Few if any other teams have that kind of continuity; what they look for in terms of talent shifts almost every 2-4 years, so you can't just plug certain "types" in that you find later in the draft.

So I get your point completely, but I really think the Steelers are the exception and not the rule when it comes to drafting pass rushers (see other, more recently successful 3-4 teams like the Packers, Chargers, Cowboys, etc.).

[ Edited by GhostofFredDean74 on Jan 31, 2011 at 14:44:59 ]
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

[ Edited by NinerGM on Jan 31, 2011 at 15:00:28 ]
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Most QB's don't need more than 2.5 seconds to throw to a receiver who has the advantage on a matchup. Therefore, a pass rush won't mean jack if you don't have DB's who can disrupt a receiver or cover well. You can always manufacture a pass rush leaving good CB's man-up but you can't manufacture great coverage AND blitz heavy.

``If you're going to play a 3-4 and don't have outside linebackers, you don't have a defense,'' Ryan told the newspaper. ``It starts with them.''

Teams that "manufacture" pass-rush didn't make the play-offs - well except the Seahawks.

However, Joe, I think you're assuming that if we blitz, it will actually get to the QB.

If anyone thinks we can get away with the usual suspects at OLB on this team and just improve the secondary, we will be looking at the same defensive problems.

It's funny that you use a quote from Ryan because his outside linebacking core is the worse out of all the 3-4 teams besides us and New England.

They absolutely manufacture a pass rush. Their front 7 isn't garbage but they're definetily built around their secondary. There's a reason why they're drafting Kyle Wilson and bringing in Cromartie even though they already have the best corner in football. To them corner was a bigger need then outside linebacker.

No one wants us to keep Haralson as the starter. No one. The issue is do we have to use the 7th pick on it and the answer is no.