D-Line Analysis | Page 2 | 49ers Webzone Forum

Karma · 2017-06-05T11:53:05-07:00

I thought it might be interesting to set up threads to examine each position group. With the complete overhaul of our roster, scheme, and coaches, it can be difficult to keep up with all of the intriguing position battles and ever-changing depth chart. With that in mind, I thought I would start with the deepest group on the team. We have spent more draft capital on this position group in the last three years but the results have been mixed. Scheme Change: We are currently shifting from a base 3-4 alignment to a 4-3 hybrid defense. Much has been written here about the change, so I won't try to re-evaluate the scheme. Ultimately, this scheme will allow our defensive linemen to focus on penetrating and disrupting without having to read and react. THe four positions along the line are: LEO, Nose Tackle, Defensive Tackle, Defensive End. Roster: LEO: Arik Armstead, Aaron Lynch, Ronald Blair, Pita Taumoepenu, Noble Nwachukwu (Ahmad Brooks and Eli Harold may get a look, but right now they are slated as SAM linebackers) NT: Earl Mitchell, Quinton Dial, D.J. Jones, Chris Jones DT: DeForest Buckner, Arik Armstead, Solomon Thomas, Chris Jones DE: Solomon Thomas, Tank Carradine, Ronald Blair Analysis: While LEO remains the biggest question mark, this position group is so stacked that some quality players aren't going to make the roster. Starting with LEO, Arik Armstead is getting the first crack at the job. Armstead finds himself position-less for the time being because of the talent in front of him. While having his size at the LEO is exciting, especially when it comes to stopping the run, I don't see him as the pass rushing monster ideally suited to this position. I think AA will end up floating along the line and become part of a really strong rotation. Aaron Lynch fits the LEO description perfectly, if he is healthy and in shape. He has the bend, motor, and array of moves to take this job and run with it. His biggest obstacle will be himself. If Saleh can keep him motivated, he could be exactly what this defense needs. I think Saleh will get him there. It will be up to lynch to stay there in the years to come. Ronald Blair is the dark horse here. He is no where near as athletically gifted as the other two, but he is a true technician who was mis-cast as a 3-4 DE. He has the kind of motor ands work ethic that could see him surpass Lynch if Lynch becomes lackadaisical. As for Pita and Noble, they both have tremendous speed for the position, but strength, size, and experience will be their hurdles. I think Pita has an outside shot at the roster, but both of them need at least a year of development before they will be able to make an impact. Nose Tackle will be a different position than it has been in the 3-4. This defense calls for more versatility from this position. In the 3-4, we wanted a giant who could constantly take on double teams and hold his ground. This defense will require a guy who can do that occasionally, but who can also get up field and make plays. Earl Mitchell was brought in at the start of Free Agency to solidify this position. Mitchell certainly won't be the most talented player on the field in any alignment, but he will be a leader for the young guys. Mitchell's job will be to know his assignment, captain the line when he is on the field, and take advantage of mismatches created by teams focusing on Buckner, Thomas, or others. I anticipate he will be solid and unspectacular. Quinton Dial is a similar player with more size. I'm actually really excited to see what he can do in this new scheme. In his career, Dial has been a guy who could hold up blocks well and rely on his work ethic. D.J. Jones will be the most interesting member of this group to watch. He has the size, low center of gravity, and explosion to some day be the starter here. He may even get some work at DT if there are injuries. Chris Jones is the OTAs standout thus far. He is a veteran who works hard and knows he has to produce every day or he is back on the street. He'll get a look at every position and will put pressure on everybody to keep improving. You've got to love guys like him. Defensive Tackle should be the most disruptive position. DeForest Buckner could play just about anywhere on this line and be successful. Saleh has slotted him here and it should be a perfect fit. Buckner proved to be a force last year from the 3-4 DE spot, so giving him the chance to focus on penetrating rather than read and react should be a huge win for this defense. In obvious passing downs, Solomon Thomas could kick inside with him, but Buckner will get the majority of time here. Armstead also figures to get a few reps here as he moves along the line as the "super-sub" that I predict him to be. THe other guys would only get time here if there are major injuries. Defensive End will probably see a lot of rotation. This spot is tailor made for Solomon Thomas. It requires a player who can push the pocket, pressure the QB, and set the edge in the run game. Thomas' blend of strength, size, and speed fit perfectly. Thomas is the kind of player who will keep opposing defenses from always doubling Buckner or the LEO. That said, Thomas is a rookie and shouldn't be depended on to take all the snaps. Carradine, like Blair, was mis-cast as a 3-4 DE and then OLB. He could really shine in a back-up role here if he hasn't been ruined by all of the position changes he has gone through. Hopefully he is using OTAs to make a statement before Thomas is out of school. If not, Carradine could easily be the odd man out. Armstead and Blair will also have the opportunity to get some rotational reps here if they prove their value. Ultimately, the success of this position group will depend on Saleh's ability to put these guys in the best position to succeed and manages the rotation in a way that maximizes rest and continuity. Not an easy feat. I will focus on the Offensive Line in the next thread. Let me know what you think of my assessment or if I forgot something.

Jun 5, 2017 at 1:40 PM

#16

SmokeCrabtrees
Veteran
Posts: 15,580

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by toppdogg32:
WOW!!, are the 49ers suddenly STACKED at a position besides CB, RB , and WR ?? wow... improvement is/has come quick!!

Even CB and RB could prove to be "stacked" at some point if the talent there lives up to potential. Maybe?

WR? Not so much...the slot WR looks pretty healthy with Kerley and Taylor...solid at the X (Garcon/Aldrick/Robinson) but we're badly missing a true ZWR IMHO.

Definitely stacked at RB IMO. I think Goodwin and Robinson can handle the responsibilities of a Z WR. Use that speed to open up the under neath. Also, we could slide Garçon to the Z on 3rd downs and put someone like Robinson/Goodwin/Kerls on an island one on one?

[ Edited by SmokeCrabtrees on Jun 5, 2017 at 1:41 PM ]

Jun 5, 2017 at 2:48 PM

#17

acrownlessking
Member
Posts: 618

Originally posted by NCommand:
Nice post Karma. The signing of Elvis should have no bearing on Armstead starting in base packages from LEO. Elvis is 33 and he'll most likely be used in pass rushing downs only from both SAM/LEO (edges).

One way I look at it is that this defense will be centered on mostly one-gapping now and attacking those gaps.

Therefore, I break my players up between players who can edge rush and those who are better interior rushers. Right now, we don't have a player who can do both equally effective but here's hoping that Thomas can grow into that Bennett-type role.

LDE: *DeForest Bucker; Tank Carradine
NT: D.J. Jones; *Earl Mitchell
RDT: *Solomon Thomas; *Ronald Blair
RDE: *Arik Armstead
ER: Elvis Dumervil & Aaron Lynch; Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Malcolm Smith
MIKE: Navarro Bowman
WILL: Reuben Foster; Ray-Ray Armstrong
RCB: Dontae Johnson; Ahkello Witherspoon
S/CB: K'Waun Williams; Will Redmond
LCB: Rashard Robinson
FS: Jimmie Ward; Lorenzo Jerome
SS: Eric Reid; Jaquiski Tartt

* Interior Rushers / ER = Edge Rushers

Another good way to look at it is base personnel vs. nickel/dime.

Given we don't have too many prototypical players for this defense yet, Saleh may end up using a couple players to achieve similar results one prototypical player may have produced.

And finally, and this is where Saleh will have his work cut out for him, versatility. One thing this group does possess, is the ability to play multiple positions and in various combinations. One thing coach Z wants is his players going balls out for 5 straight plays and then subbing out. That's why there will always be a place for a guy like Armstead, Jones, Smith, etc.

It's up to Saleh to play to the players strengths in any combination necessary to achieve the best results even if it's not "traditional."

Mitchell will start over jones

Jun 5, 2017 at 2:50 PM

#18

acrownlessking
Member
Posts: 618

Originally posted by toppdogg32:
WOW!!, are the 49ers suddenly STACKED at a position besides CB, RB , and WR ?? wow... improvement is/has come quick!!

You can take RB out of that group... plenty of (unproven) talent there..

I'd say we are stacked at the RB position in regards to us having the tools that we need for the scheme that will be used

Jun 5, 2017 at 3:03 PM

#19

SmokeCrabtrees
Veteran
Posts: 15,580

Originally posted by toppdogg32:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by toppdogg32:
WOW!!, are the 49ers suddenly STACKED at a position besides CB, RB , and WR ?? wow... improvement is/has come quick!!

Even CB and RB could prove to be "stacked" at some point if the talent there lives up to potential. Maybe?

WR? Not so much...the slot WR looks pretty healthy with Kerley and Taylor...solid at the X (Garcon/Aldrick/Robinson) but we're badly missing a true ZWR IMHO.

Maclin ??

We got the money...even if we weren't serious about him, we could of bluffed him just to get him in for a workout if we were worried/looking to upgrade. Goodwin and Robinson can take the top off, I think we're okay, who knows....maybe we're targeting someone else.

Maybe Bills sign Maclin and they trade us Watkins

Jun 5, 2017 at 4:03 PM

#20

TOtheGreat
Veteran
Posts: 162

Niners Dl is gonna be a problem on madden and real life

Jun 5, 2017 at 5:54 PM

#21

dlance
Veteran
Posts: 1,072

The D Line will have a rotation . Arik Armstead should start at Leo. On passing down they will pull the NT and slide Arik Armstead down over the guard. Bring in a smaller faster guy on the outside. DeForest Bucker & Arik Armstead on the inside going after the QB with Solomon Thomas and someone ells on the outside. Sound good to me and they should be able to get to the QB rushing 4. They will have a sub like Brooks spelling Thomas. And if he make the team I think Tank Carradine should be an Edge Rusher not a DE.

Jun 5, 2017 at 5:57 PM

#22

GoldenGateGlory
Veteran
Posts: 1,503

Originally posted by acrownlessking:

Originally posted by toppdogg32:
WOW!!, are the 49ers suddenly STACKED at a position besides CB, RB , and WR ?? wow... improvement is/has come quick!!

You can take RB out of that group... plenty of (unproven) talent there..

I'd say we are stacked at the RB position in regards to us having the tools that we need for the scheme that will be used

There is a difference between being stacked and being stacked with quality.

If all the players are about the same, it is so what.

What you need is a few out and out ALL Pros which dominate the thinking and planning of the opposition.

Jun 5, 2017 at 9:11 PM

#23

socal9er42
Veteran
Posts: 4,623

Originally posted by NCommand:
Nice post Karma. The signing of Elvis should have no bearing on Armstead starting in base packages from LEO. Elvis is 33 and he'll most likely be used in pass rushing downs only from both SAM/LEO (edges).

One way I look at it is that this defense will be centered on mostly one-gapping now and attacking those gaps.

Therefore, I break my players up between players who can edge rush and those who are better interior rushers. Right now, we don't have a player who can do both equally effective but here's hoping that Thomas can grow into that Bennett-type role.

LDE: *DeForest Bucker; Tank Carradine
NT: D.J. Jones; *Earl Mitchell
RDT: *Solomon Thomas; *Ronald Blair
RDE: *Arik Armstead
ER: Elvis Dumervil & Aaron Lynch; Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Malcolm Smith
MIKE: Navarro Bowman
WILL: Reuben Foster; Ray-Ray Armstrong
RCB: Dontae Johnson; Ahkello Witherspoon
S/CB: K'Waun Williams; Will Redmond
LCB: Rashard Robinson
FS: Jimmie Ward; Lorenzo Jerome
SS: Eric Reid; Jaquiski Tartt

* Interior Rushers / ER = Edge Rushers

Another good way to look at it is base personnel vs. nickel/dime.

Given we don't have too many prototypical players for this defense yet, Saleh may end up using a couple players to achieve similar results one prototypical player may have produced.

And finally, and this is where Saleh will have his work cut out for him, versatility. One thing this group does possess, is the ability to play multiple positions and in various combinations. One thing coach Z wants is his players going balls out for 5 straight plays and then subbing out. That's why there will always be a place for a guy like Armstead, Jones, Smith, etc.

It's up to Saleh to play to the players strengths in any combination necessary to achieve the best results even if it's not "traditional."

I think Dial sticks around for at least 1 more season.

Jun 6, 2017 at 1:11 PM

#24

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

Originally posted by socal9er42:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Nice post Karma. The signing of Elvis should have no bearing on Armstead starting in base packages from LEO. Elvis is 33 and he'll most likely be used in pass rushing downs only from both SAM/LEO (edges).

One way I look at it is that this defense will be centered on mostly one-gapping now and attacking those gaps.

Therefore, I break my players up between players who can edge rush and those who are better interior rushers. Right now, we don't have a player who can do both equally effective but here's hoping that Thomas can grow into that Bennett-type role.

LDE: *DeForest Bucker; Tank Carradine
NT: D.J. Jones; *Earl Mitchell
RDT: *Solomon Thomas; *Ronald Blair
RDE: *Arik Armstead
ER: Elvis Dumervil & Aaron Lynch; Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Malcolm Smith
MIKE: Navarro Bowman
WILL: Reuben Foster; Ray-Ray Armstrong
RCB: Dontae Johnson; Ahkello Witherspoon
S/CB: K'Waun Williams; Will Redmond
LCB: Rashard Robinson
FS: Jimmie Ward; Lorenzo Jerome
SS: Eric Reid; Jaquiski Tartt

* Interior Rushers / ER = Edge Rushers

Another good way to look at it is base personnel vs. nickel/dime.

Given we don't have too many prototypical players for this defense yet, Saleh may end up using a couple players to achieve similar results one prototypical player may have produced.

And finally, and this is where Saleh will have his work cut out for him, versatility. One thing this group does possess, is the ability to play multiple positions and in various combinations. One thing coach Z wants is his players going balls out for 5 straight plays and then subbing out. That's why there will always be a place for a guy like Armstead, Jones, Smith, etc.

It's up to Saleh to play to the players strengths in any combination necessary to achieve the best results even if it's not "traditional."

I think Dial sticks around for at least 1 more season.

Yeah, I like Dial and I like Jones too. But damn, when you get down to 53, tough decisions have to be made. I already redid my 53 this morning. LOL

Any ideas on how to keep an extra DL?

Defensive Personnel: --- 25
LDE: *DeForest Bucker
NT: *Earl Mitchell; D.J. Jones
RDT: *Solomon Thomas; *Ronald Blair
RDE: *Arik Armstead
ER/SAM/LEFT END: Elvis Dumervil; Eli Harold
ER/LEO/RIGHT END: Aaron Lynch; Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Ahmad Brooks; Dekoda Watson
MIKE: Navarro Bowman; Ray-Ray Armstrong
WILL: Malcolm Smith; Reuben Foster
RCB: Dontae Johnson; Ahkello Witherspoon
S/CB: K'Waun Williams; Will Redmond
LCB: Rashard Robinson
FS: Jimmie Ward; Lorenzo Jerome
SS: Eric Reid; Jaquiski Tartt

Jun 6, 2017 at 1:59 PM

#25

Heroism
Veteran
Posts: 26,472

ER/SAM/LEFT END: Elvis Dumervil; Eli Harold
ER/LEO/RIGHT END: Aaron Lynch; Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Ahmad Brooks; Dekoda Watson

I'd guess one of these guys will not be on the final roster. When you factor in that Solly will also play on the edge, this is simply too many edge players. Not sure if what ATL did last year will have any bearing on what Kyle does, but they only kept four true edge players on their final 53.

[ Edited by Heroism on Jun 6, 2017 at 1:59 PM ]

Jun 6, 2017 at 2:04 PM

#26

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

Originally posted by Heroism:
ER/SAM/LEFT END: Elvis Dumervil; Eli Harold
ER/LEO/RIGHT END: Aaron Lynch; Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Ahmad Brooks; Dekoda Watson

I'd guess one of these guys will not be on the final roster. When you factor in that Solly will also play on the edge, this is simply too many edge players. Not sure if what ATL did last year will have any bearing on what Kyle does, but they only kept four true edge players on their final 53.

That was my genuine concern and we kind of were talking about that this morning with re: to Harold. And you're right about Thomas taking snaps there as well; you've got Carradine as well from the 6T. Jones/Dial. I get this sneaky suspicion that of the extended collective group, a premium will be placed on pass rush from these end positions; we've got quite a few guys who have legit potential for defending the run so that's the next piece for Saleh.

Whatchu think?

Jun 6, 2017 at 2:06 PM

#27

Heroism
Veteran
Posts: 26,472

I'm just glad it's not my responsibility to cut players.

Jun 6, 2017 at 3:13 PM

#28

SmokeCrabtrees
Veteran
Posts: 15,580

Originally posted by Heroism:
I'm just glad it's not my responsibility to cut players.

Watson gets the boot after he helps our guys install the D. Sorry buddy. Coyle,Paulsen,Hightower might get the same treatment.

Jun 6, 2017 at 4:52 PM

#29

socal9er42
Veteran
Posts: 4,623

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, I like Dial and I like Jones too. But damn, when you get down to 53, tough decisions have to be made. I already redid my 53 this morning. LOL

Any ideas on how to keep an extra DL?

Defensive Personnel: --- 25
LDE: *DeForest Bucker
NT: *Earl Mitchell; D.J. Jones
RDT: *Solomon Thomas; *Ronald Blair
RDE: *Arik Armstead
ER/SAM/LEFT END: Elvis Dumervil; Eli Harold
ER/LEO/RIGHT END: Aaron Lynch; Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Ahmad Brooks; Dekoda Watson
MIKE: Navarro Bowman; Ray-Ray Armstrong
WILL: Malcolm Smith; Reuben Foster
RCB: Dontae Johnson; Ahkello Witherspoon
S/CB: K'Waun Williams; Will Redmond
LCB: Rashard Robinson
FS: Jimmie Ward; Lorenzo Jerome
SS: Eric Reid; Jaquiski Tartt

Nope. It's going to be tough to make some of the final cuts. I hope it's not due to an injury, but always possible. Dial can provide solid backup (at least) up and down the line. I think he will also be one of the people that benefits the most from the switch to the 4-3 that allows him to play downhill.

Jun 6, 2017 at 5:04 PM

#30

GoldenGateGlory
Veteran
Posts: 1,503

It is touch and go for a number of positions.