D-Line Analysis

Sure, as soon as I write this, the team signs Elvis Dumervil. Obviously, he slots in as a LEO and probably spells the end of the Arik Armstead experiment there. He'll probably compete with Aaron Lynch for time at the position and knocks Pita out of the running for a roster spot. Armstead should still play the "super-sub" position along the rest of the line.

Kinda hard to analysis these guys yet til we see them play being that they are switching positions. Really nothing to argue about in your initial analysis though. Good thread premise.

Nice post Karma. The signing of Elvis should have no bearing on Armstead starting in base packages from LEO. Elvis is 33 and he'll most likely be used in pass rushing downs only from both SAM/LEO (edges).

One way I look at it is that this defense will be centered on mostly one-gapping now and attacking those gaps.

Therefore, I break my players up between players who can edge rush and those who are better interior rushers. Right now, we don't have a player who can do both equally effective but here's hoping that Thomas can grow into that Bennett-type role.

LDE: *DeForest Bucker; Tank Carradine
NT: D.J. Jones; *Earl Mitchell
RDT: *Solomon Thomas; *Ronald Blair
RDE: *Arik Armstead
ER: Elvis Dumervil & Aaron Lynch; Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Malcolm Smith
MIKE: Navarro Bowman
WILL: Reuben Foster; Ray-Ray Armstrong
RCB: Dontae Johnson; Ahkello Witherspoon
S/CB: K'Waun Williams; Will Redmond
LCB: Rashard Robinson
FS: Jimmie Ward; Lorenzo Jerome
SS: Eric Reid; Jaquiski Tartt

* Interior Rushers / ER = Edge Rushers

Another good way to look at it is base personnel vs. nickel/dime.

Given we don't have too many prototypical players for this defense yet, Saleh may end up using a couple players to achieve similar results one prototypical player may have produced.

And finally, and this is where Saleh will have his work cut out for him, versatility. One thing this group does possess, is the ability to play multiple positions and in various combinations. One thing coach Z wants is his players going balls out for 5 straight plays and then subbing out. That's why there will always be a place for a guy like Armstead, Jones, Smith, etc.

It's up to Saleh to play to the players strengths in any combination necessary to achieve the best results even if it's not "traditional."

Originally posted by NCommand:
Nice post Karma. The signing of Elvis should have no bearing on Armstead starting in base packages from LEO. Elvis is 33 and he'll most likely be used in pass rushing downs only from both SAM/LEO (edges).

One way I look at it is that this defense will be centered on mostly one-gapping now and attacking those gaps.

Therefore, I break my players up between players who can edge rush and those who are better interior rushers. Right now, we don't have a player who can do both equally effective but here's hoping that Thomas can grow into that Bennett-type role.

LDE: *DeForest Bucker; Tank Carradine
NT: D.J. Jones; *Earl Mitchell
RDT: *Solomon Thomas; *Ronald Blair
RDE: *Arik Armstead
ER: Elvis Dumervil & Aaron Lynch; Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Malcolm Smith
MIKE: Navarro Bowman
WILL: Reuben Foster; Ray-Ray Armstrong
RCB: Dontae Johnson; Ahkello Witherspoon
S/CB: K'Waun Williams; Will Redmond
LCB: Rashard Robinson
FS: Jimmie Ward; Lorenzo Jerome
SS: Eric Reid; Jaquiski Tartt

* Interior Rushers / ER = Edge Rushers

Another good way to look at it is base personnel vs. nickel/dime.

Given we don't have too many prototypical players for this defense yet, Saleh may end up using a couple players to achieve similar results one prototypical player may have produced.

And finally, and this is where Saleh will have his work cut out for him, versatility. One thing this group does possess, is the ability to play multiple positions and in various combinations. One thing coach Z wants is his players going balls out for 5 straight plays and then subbing out. That's why there will always be a place for a guy like Armstead, Jones, Smith, etc.

It's up to Saleh to play to the players strengths in any combination necessary to achieve the best results even if it's not "traditional."

Two things I find interesting about your lineup:

1. Do you really think Buckner will play (more) outside and Thomas will play (more) inside? I would reverse that. I think Buckner will have an easier time with the guards and will be able to hold up better against the run, while Thomas has the speed to rush from the edge and the strength to set it in the run game. Of course, I do agree with the versatility they provide.

2. Do you think Jones will start over Mitchell? I think D.J. will need a year of study behind a vet like Mitchell. I think Mitchell was brought in to start and mentor guys like Jones to eventually take over. I think Mitchell's experience and strength will give him the edge over Jones for at least a year.

Originally posted by lamontb:
Kinda hard to analysis these guys yet til we see them play being that they are switching positions. Really nothing to argue about in your initial analysis though. Good thread premise.

Fair enough, and I think that could be argued any year with any player who has not lived up to his full potential. I just find it an interesting intellectual endeavor to try to line everything up as it unfolds.

WOW!!, are the 49ers suddenly STACKED at a position besides CB, RB , and WR ?? wow... improvement is/has come quick!!

Originally posted by Karma:
I thought it might be interesting to set up threads to examine each position group. With the complete overhaul of our roster, scheme, and coaches, it can be difficult to keep up with all of the intriguing position battles and ever-changing depth chart. With that in mind, I thought I would start with the deepest group on the team. We have spent more draft capital on this position group in the last three years but the results have been mixed.

Scheme Change: We are currently shifting from a base 3-4 alignment to a 4-3 hybrid defense. Much has been written here about the change, so I won't try to re-evaluate the scheme. Ultimately, this scheme will allow our defensive linemen to focus on penetrating and disrupting without having to read and react. THe four positions along the line are: LEO, Nose Tackle, Defensive Tackle, Defensive End.

Roster:

• LEO: Arik Armstead, Aaron Lynch, Ronald Blair, Pita Taumoepenu, Noble Nwachukwu (Ahmad Brooks and Eli Harold may get a look, but right now they are slated as SAM linebackers)
• NT: Earl Mitchell, Quinton Dial, D.J. Jones, Chris Jones
• DT: DeForest Buckner, Arik Armstead, Solomon Thomas, Chris Jones
• DE: Solomon Thomas, Tank Carradine, Ronald Blair

Analysis: While LEO remains the biggest question mark, this position group is so stacked that some quality players aren't going to make the roster.

1. Starting with LEO, Arik Armstead is getting the first crack at the job. Armstead finds himself position-less for the time being because of the talent in front of him. While having his size at the LEO is exciting, especially when it comes to stopping the run, I don't see him as the pass rushing monster ideally suited to this position. I think AA will end up floating along the line and become part of a really strong rotation. Aaron Lynch fits the LEO description perfectly, if he is healthy and in shape. He has the bend, motor, and array of moves to take this job and run with it. His biggest obstacle will be himself. If Saleh can keep him motivated, he could be exactly what this defense needs. I think Saleh will get him there. It will be up to lynch to stay there in the years to come. Ronald Blair is the dark horse here. He is no where near as athletically gifted as the other two, but he is a true technician who was mis-cast as a 3-4 DE. He has the kind of motor ands work ethic that could see him surpass Lynch if Lynch becomes lackadaisical. As for Pita and Noble, they both have tremendous speed for the position, but strength, size, and experience will be their hurdles. I think Pita has an outside shot at the roster, but both of them need at least a year of development before they will be able to make an impact.
2. Nose Tackle will be a different position than it has been in the 3-4. This defense calls for more versatility from this position. In the 3-4, we wanted a giant who could constantly take on double teams and hold his ground. This defense will require a guy who can do that occasionally, but who can also get up field and make plays. Earl Mitchell was brought in at the start of Free Agency to solidify this position. Mitchell certainly won't be the most talented player on the field in any alignment, but he will be a leader for the young guys. Mitchell's job will be to know his assignment, captain the line when he is on the field, and take advantage of mismatches created by teams focusing on Buckner, Thomas, or others. I anticipate he will be solid and unspectacular. Quinton Dial is a similar player with more size. I'm actually really excited to see what he can do in this new scheme. In his career, Dial has been a guy who could hold up blocks well and rely on his work ethic. D.J. Jones will be the most interesting member of this group to watch. He has the size, low center of gravity, and explosion to some day be the starter here. He may even get some work at DT if there are injuries. Chris Jones is the OTAs standout thus far. He is a veteran who works hard and knows he has to produce every day or he is back on the street. He'll get a look at every position and will put pressure on everybody to keep improving. You've got to love guys like him.
3. Defensive Tackle should be the most disruptive position. DeForest Buckner could play just about anywhere on this line and be successful. Saleh has slotted him here and it should be a perfect fit. Buckner proved to be a force last year from the 3-4 DE spot, so giving him the chance to focus on penetrating rather than read and react should be a huge win for this defense. In obvious passing downs, Solomon Thomas could kick inside with him, but Buckner will get the majority of time here. Armstead also figures to get a few reps here as he moves along the line as the "super-sub" that I predict him to be. THe other guys would only get time here if there are major injuries.
4. Defensive End will probably see a lot of rotation. This spot is tailor made for Solomon Thomas. It requires a player who can push the pocket, pressure the QB, and set the edge in the run game. Thomas' blend of strength, size, and speed fit perfectly. Thomas is the kind of player who will keep opposing defenses from always doubling Buckner or the LEO. That said, Thomas is a rookie and shouldn't be depended on to take all the snaps. Carradine, like Blair, was mis-cast as a 3-4 DE and then OLB. He could really shine in a back-up role here if he hasn't been ruined by all of the position changes he has gone through. Hopefully he is using OTAs to make a statement before Thomas is out of school. If not, Carradine could easily be the odd man out. Armstead and Blair will also have the opportunity to get some rotational reps here if they prove their value.

Ultimately, the success of this position group will depend on Saleh's ability to put these guys in the best position to succeed and manages the rotation in a way that maximizes rest and continuity. Not an easy feat. I will focus on the Offensive Line in the next thread. Let me know what you think of my assessment or if I forgot something.

agreed

Originally posted by Karma:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Nice post Karma. The signing of Elvis should have no bearing on Armstead starting in base packages from LEO. Elvis is 33 and he'll most likely be used in pass rushing downs only from both SAM/LEO (edges).

One way I look at it is that this defense will be centered on mostly one-gapping now and attacking those gaps.

Therefore, I break my players up between players who can edge rush and those who are better interior rushers. Right now, we don't have a player who can do both equally effective but here's hoping that Thomas can grow into that Bennett-type role.

LDE: *DeForest Bucker; Tank Carradine
NT: D.J. Jones; *Earl Mitchell
RDT: *Solomon Thomas; *Ronald Blair
RDE: *Arik Armstead
ER: Elvis Dumervil & Aaron Lynch; Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Malcolm Smith
MIKE: Navarro Bowman
WILL: Reuben Foster; Ray-Ray Armstrong
RCB: Dontae Johnson; Ahkello Witherspoon
S/CB: K'Waun Williams; Will Redmond
LCB: Rashard Robinson
FS: Jimmie Ward; Lorenzo Jerome
SS: Eric Reid; Jaquiski Tartt

* Interior Rushers / ER = Edge Rushers

Another good way to look at it is base personnel vs. nickel/dime.

Given we don't have too many prototypical players for this defense yet, Saleh may end up using a couple players to achieve similar results one prototypical player may have produced.

And finally, and this is where Saleh will have his work cut out for him, versatility. One thing this group does possess, is the ability to play multiple positions and in various combinations. One thing coach Z wants is his players going balls out for 5 straight plays and then subbing out. That's why there will always be a place for a guy like Armstead, Jones, Smith, etc.

It's up to Saleh to play to the players strengths in any combination necessary to achieve the best results even if it's not "traditional."

Two things I find interesting about your lineup:

1. Do you really think Buckner will play (more) outside and Thomas will play (more) inside? I would reverse that. I think Buckner will have an easier time with the guards and will be able to hold up better against the run, while Thomas has the speed to rush from the edge and the strength to set it in the run game. Of course, I do agree with the versatility they provide.

2. Do you think Jones will start over Mitchell? I think D.J. will need a year of study behind a vet like Mitchell. I think Mitchell was brought in to start and mentor guys like Jones to eventually take over. I think Mitchell's experience and strength will give him the edge over Jones for at least a year.

He has Buck as base LDE cause it might be too much to put in Thomas' plate as a rookie In week 1 to 2-gap,play contain and rush if it's a pass all while looking out for screens etc. that's why it seems to make more sense to play Thomas as base RDT right next to AA where he can shoot one gap and go.

Now that we signed Elvis, my gut feelings is Elvis rushes from the left side and Lynch is the Leo. Both as pure edge rushers, I don't want neither playing the run.

Originally posted by Karma:
Two things I find interesting about your lineup:

1. Do you really think Buckner will play (more) outside and Thomas will play (more) inside? I would reverse that. I think Buckner will have an easier time with the guards and will be able to hold up better against the run, while Thomas has the speed to rush from the edge and the strength to set it in the run game. Of course, I do agree with the versatility they provide.

2. Do you think Jones will start over Mitchell? I think D.J. will need a year of study behind a vet like Mitchell. I think Mitchell was brought in to start and mentor guys like Jones to eventually take over. I think Mitchell's experience and strength will give him the edge over Jones for at least a year.

1. Yeah, Smoke got it. In the end, I see lots of rotation between Buckner and Thomas toggling between both the LDE/5T and RDT/3T. But for 'now' Buckner is the most stout and more used to 2-gapping and should be an ideal fit there on the slight majority of the snaps from there. I'd like Saleh to start Thomas out to his full strengths...wreaking havoc from the interior, one-gapping and against one OL. Until he builds enough strength, size and learns edge rush skills, I'd prefer to see him more inside at the 3T on base downs where he can use his natural instincts to blow up the step-up lanes/TFL.

2. Not yet...Mitchell has the veteran savy BUT Jones has incredible potential there and that race may be tighter than some think. If Jones' proves to be the more stout on running downs and clogs more holes, it would not surprise me one bit to see him getting more and more 'starting' snaps there and using Mitchell more at the 3T to spell Thomas/Buckner. Jones may prove to be more stout and Mitchell has proved to be a better slasher for a NT right now.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Karma:

Two things I find interesting about your lineup:

1. Do you really think Buckner will play (more) outside and Thomas will play (more) inside? I would reverse that. I think Buckner will have an easier time with the guards and will be able to hold up better against the run, while Thomas has the speed to rush from the edge and the strength to set it in the run game. Of course, I do agree with the versatility they provide.

2. Do you think Jones will start over Mitchell? I think D.J. will need a year of study behind a vet like Mitchell. I think Mitchell was brought in to start and mentor guys like Jones to eventually take over. I think Mitchell's experience and strength will give him the edge over Jones for at least a year.

1. Yeah, Smoke got it. In the end, I see lots of rotation between Buckner and Thomas toggling between both the LDE/5T and RDT/3T. But for 'now' Buckner is the most stout and more used to 2-gapping and should be an ideal fit there on the slight majority of the snaps from there. I'd like Saleh to start Thomas out to his full strengths...wreaking havoc from the interior, one-gapping and against one OL. Until he builds enough strength, size and learns edge rush skills, I'd prefer to see him more inside at the 3T on base downs where he can use his natural instincts to blow up the step-up lanes/TFL.

2. Not yet...Mitchell has the veteran savy BUT Jones has incredible potential there and that race may be tighter than some think. If Jones' proves to be the more stout on running downs and clogs more holes, it would not surprise me one bit to see him getting more and more 'starting' snaps there and using Mitchell more at the 3T to spell Thomas/Buckner. Jones may prove to be more stout and Mitchell has proved to be a better slasher for a NT right now.

We're pretty much still running a 3-4 but instead of another ILB we got a DL on the LOS lol.

Originally posted by toppdogg32:
WOW!!, are the 49ers suddenly STACKED at a position besides CB, RB , and WR ?? wow... improvement is/has come quick!!

Even CB and RB could prove to be "stacked" at some point if the talent there lives up to potential. Maybe?

WR? Not so much...the slot WR looks pretty healthy with Kerley and Taylor...solid at the X (Garcon/Aldrick/Robinson) but we're badly missing a true ZWR IMHO.

Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:
We're pretty much still running a 3-4 but instead of another ILB we got a DL on the LOS lol.

Yeah, maybe one or two are two-gapping, the rest one-gap attacking. That's the biggest difference, really...philosophy.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by toppdogg32:
WOW!!, are the 49ers suddenly STACKED at a position besides CB, RB , and WR ?? wow... improvement is/has come quick!!

Even CB and RB could prove to be "stacked" at some point if the talent there lives up to potential. Maybe?

WR? Not so much...the slot WR looks pretty healthy with Kerley and Taylor...solid at the X (Garcon/Aldrick/Robinson) but we're badly missing a true ZWR IMHO.

Maclin ??

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:
We're pretty much still running a 3-4 but instead of another ILB we got a DL on the LOS lol.

Yeah, maybe one or two are two-gapping, the rest one-gap attacking. That's the biggest difference, really...philosophy.

true