D-Line Analysis | Page 5 | 49ers Webzone Forum

Karma · 2017-06-05T11:53:05-07:00

I thought it might be interesting to set up threads to examine each position group. With the complete overhaul of our roster, scheme, and coaches, it can be difficult to keep up with all of the intriguing position battles and ever-changing depth chart. With that in mind, I thought I would start with the deepest group on the team. We have spent more draft capital on this position group in the last three years but the results have been mixed. Scheme Change: We are currently shifting from a base 3-4 alignment to a 4-3 hybrid defense. Much has been written here about the change, so I won't try to re-evaluate the scheme. Ultimately, this scheme will allow our defensive linemen to focus on penetrating and disrupting without having to read and react. THe four positions along the line are: LEO, Nose Tackle, Defensive Tackle, Defensive End. Roster: LEO: Arik Armstead, Aaron Lynch, Ronald Blair, Pita Taumoepenu, Noble Nwachukwu (Ahmad Brooks and Eli Harold may get a look, but right now they are slated as SAM linebackers) NT: Earl Mitchell, Quinton Dial, D.J. Jones, Chris Jones DT: DeForest Buckner, Arik Armstead, Solomon Thomas, Chris Jones DE: Solomon Thomas, Tank Carradine, Ronald Blair Analysis: While LEO remains the biggest question mark, this position group is so stacked that some quality players aren't going to make the roster. Starting with LEO, Arik Armstead is getting the first crack at the job. Armstead finds himself position-less for the time being because of the talent in front of him. While having his size at the LEO is exciting, especially when it comes to stopping the run, I don't see him as the pass rushing monster ideally suited to this position. I think AA will end up floating along the line and become part of a really strong rotation. Aaron Lynch fits the LEO description perfectly, if he is healthy and in shape. He has the bend, motor, and array of moves to take this job and run with it. His biggest obstacle will be himself. If Saleh can keep him motivated, he could be exactly what this defense needs. I think Saleh will get him there. It will be up to lynch to stay there in the years to come. Ronald Blair is the dark horse here. He is no where near as athletically gifted as the other two, but he is a true technician who was mis-cast as a 3-4 DE. He has the kind of motor ands work ethic that could see him surpass Lynch if Lynch becomes lackadaisical. As for Pita and Noble, they both have tremendous speed for the position, but strength, size, and experience will be their hurdles. I think Pita has an outside shot at the roster, but both of them need at least a year of development before they will be able to make an impact. Nose Tackle will be a different position than it has been in the 3-4. This defense calls for more versatility from this position. In the 3-4, we wanted a giant who could constantly take on double teams and hold his ground. This defense will require a guy who can do that occasionally, but who can also get up field and make plays. Earl Mitchell was brought in at the start of Free Agency to solidify this position. Mitchell certainly won't be the most talented player on the field in any alignment, but he will be a leader for the young guys. Mitchell's job will be to know his assignment, captain the line when he is on the field, and take advantage of mismatches created by teams focusing on Buckner, Thomas, or others. I anticipate he will be solid and unspectacular. Quinton Dial is a similar player with more size. I'm actually really excited to see what he can do in this new scheme. In his career, Dial has been a guy who could hold up blocks well and rely on his work ethic. D.J. Jones will be the most interesting member of this group to watch. He has the size, low center of gravity, and explosion to some day be the starter here. He may even get some work at DT if there are injuries. Chris Jones is the OTAs standout thus far. He is a veteran who works hard and knows he has to produce every day or he is back on the street. He'll get a look at every position and will put pressure on everybody to keep improving. You've got to love guys like him. Defensive Tackle should be the most disruptive position. DeForest Buckner could play just about anywhere on this line and be successful. Saleh has slotted him here and it should be a perfect fit. Buckner proved to be a force last year from the 3-4 DE spot, so giving him the chance to focus on penetrating rather than read and react should be a huge win for this defense. In obvious passing downs, Solomon Thomas could kick inside with him, but Buckner will get the majority of time here. Armstead also figures to get a few reps here as he moves along the line as the "super-sub" that I predict him to be. THe other guys would only get time here if there are major injuries. Defensive End will probably see a lot of rotation. This spot is tailor made for Solomon Thomas. It requires a player who can push the pocket, pressure the QB, and set the edge in the run game. Thomas' blend of strength, size, and speed fit perfectly. Thomas is the kind of player who will keep opposing defenses from always doubling Buckner or the LEO. That said, Thomas is a rookie and shouldn't be depended on to take all the snaps. Carradine, like Blair, was mis-cast as a 3-4 DE and then OLB. He could really shine in a back-up role here if he hasn't been ruined by all of the position changes he has gone through. Hopefully he is using OTAs to make a statement before Thomas is out of school. If not, Carradine could easily be the odd man out. Armstead and Blair will also have the opportunity to get some rotational reps here if they prove their value. Ultimately, the success of this position group will depend on Saleh's ability to put these guys in the best position to succeed and manages the rotation in a way that maximizes rest and continuity. Not an easy feat. I will focus on the Offensive Line in the next thread. Let me know what you think of my assessment or if I forgot something.

Jun 8, 2017 at 6:10 AM

#61

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

Originally posted by Buchy:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by 808niner4lyphe:
Don't sleep on Chris Jones yet, he might make the roster over Pita and Pita goes to PS. Pita is raw and would take him a year or two to develop, he's still new to football and not ready for a roster spot. Dumervill will be the situational pass rusher now where Pita was going to be.

Very possible. They seem to like Jones. I like him better than Dial actually and this would certainly be a way to keep all extra DL at the expense of pass rush.

I wouldn't be shocked, but I'm sure I read that the staff were pretty high on Pita and part of the benefit in bringing in Elvis was training him up - they may not risk him being claimed off waivers, but I could see a mystery hangnail and IR.

Edit: I wouldn't put too much weight into keeping guys that were signed to minimum deals prior to the draft, that's just good management by having something in the cupboard before you go shopping in the draft. It doesn't mean they are preferred for the 53.

Agreed!

Jun 8, 2017 at 7:06 AM

#62

illinois9er
Veteran
Posts: 6,162

I'll be pissed if someone like Dial pushes Blair off the 53.

[ Edited by illinois9er on Jun 8, 2017 at 7:06 AM ]

Jun 8, 2017 at 7:13 AM

#63

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

Originally posted by illinois9er:
I'll be pissed if someone like Dial pushes Blair off the 53.

Yeah. But I think Blair is an ideal fit for this defense. Saleh puts a premium on pass rushing and with Buckner, Thomas, Armstead and Blair, that gives him a nice versatile rotation of interior pass rushers. I don't see Jones or Dial adding more esp. when we already have run-stuffing depth in Mitchell and D.J. Jones. If we were running a pure 3-4 again, Dial and Jones would be good fits but not so much now...but if Z wanted to keep his boy, Chris Jones, yeah, he'd have to knock off a backup edge rusher like Pita to do it.

Jun 8, 2017 at 7:19 AM

#64

PacTiger
Member
Posts: 30,146

There are two scenarios I see lynch becoming tradable or cut.

1. If dumervil has something left in the tank and AA surprises me and shows he can be functional as a leo.

2. If dumervil plays well and pita lights it up.

Both scenarios push lynch down a big hole. I don't think this will happen but more scenarios are popping up that makes lynch that other guy cut.

My cuts are

Dial
Tank
Noble

And two more. I think the other guy cut here is chris jones or Blair because they offer the same services. I have a feeling pita is headed to the ps instead of lynch getting cut. That gets us down to 8.

[ Edited by PacTiger on Jun 8, 2017 at 7:27 AM ]

Jun 8, 2017 at 7:36 AM

#65

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

Originally posted by PacTiger:
There are two scenarios I see lynch becoming tradable or cut.

1. If dumervil has something left in the tank and AA surprises me and shows he can be functional as a leo.

2. If dumervil plays well and pita lights it up.

Both scenarios push lynch down a big hole. I don't think this will happen but more scenarios are popping up that makes lynch that other guy cut.

My cuts are

Dial
Tank
Noble

And two more. I think the other guy cut here is chris jones or Blair because they offer the same services. I have a feeling pita is headed to the ps instead of lynch getting cut. That gets us down to 8.

I hear you. Dial and Blair are very different players though so it comes down to what Selah covets (and what Z wants) --- 2-gap run stuffer in Dial/Jones (can play the big end or NT spots) or more interior pass rush (Blair).

Jun 8, 2017 at 7:55 AM

#66

pasodoc9er
Veteran
Posts: 21,040

Originally posted by jcs:
http://www.sacbee.com/sports/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/article154605924.html

When the 49ers officially sign Elvis Dumervil to his two-year contract they will have 13 defensive linemen on their 90-man offseason roster. That's not exorbitant. After all, the 49ers now use a four-man line and they have three different units in practice: first string, second string, third string.

It becomes interesting, however, when you consider what happens when they cut the roster to 53 players in early September. The last two years, the 49ers have kept seven defensive linemen. Maybe this year with defensive line coach Jeff Zgonina's emphasis on rotating linemen they'll keep eight. But it still means that, barring major injuries between now and then, the team will part ways with a fairly significant name or two or three.

Wasn't sure when final cuts to 53 was, but as long at it's Sept, we are in great shape. That gives Z and Saleh plenty of time to watch , instruct and take notes on our 13 DLs.(incl ERs). Having this kind of unproven talent early on sure beats the hell out of last two yrs when we didn't have much talent...either in the cupboard or on the field. As long at we have until Sept, i feel confident our DC and his staff will get to see what each and every one of the DLs have to offer, and who has the talent....as well as who doesn't. I just feel really good about a DL that has been miserable for a couple seasons now, and instead of being afraid what we see come season time, i can't wait to see it.

There will be some talent cuts of good talent. We can't keep 13 DLs, but if they are all standouts...well, that is the kind of problem every GM and HC wants. Right now with the BIG 3 as the focus, we have a terrific nucleus, Elvis is a surprise help,(who saw that coming?), and we have great battles coming up. But certain guys like BIG 3 + DJ Jones, Blair , are a helluva way to start out, esp when you have a 3-4 NT in Mitchell also. Who knows where half these guys end up , but we have already seen, and to some extent agreed... there is going to be a lot of movement of players from one play to the next. Having a lot of talent,(altho unproven) PLUS having a bunch of guys who can play multiple postions....man what is football heaven supposed to look like if not like this? But yeah, we have to cut someone, maybe a couple. What we are left with , however, is going to look like a day/night contrast to last 2 yrs. The worst D in the league last yr could very well end up being our consensus top 5 front 7 in the league. Sounds impossible, but looking at the talent , it could well happen.

Now if our DBs, esp the CBs come along...it could make for one helluva yr watching our D just dominate. I'm not worried about that tho, in that a good many of these guys are still just barely on first name basis. But come Sept, i bet it is obvious who stood out ...and who just stood there. Who in his right mind would ever have thot we have so much talent in the DL that it would be extremely difficult to tell who is great....and who is even better? I know it's us, but still, hard to believe. Speaks volumes about our new GM, HC, DC

Jun 8, 2017 at 8:50 AM

#67

illinois9er
Veteran
Posts: 6,162

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by illinois9er:
I'll be pissed if someone like Dial pushes Blair off the 53.

Yeah. But I think Blair is an ideal fit for this defense. Saleh puts a premium on pass rushing and with Buckner, Thomas, Armstead and Blair, that gives him a nice versatile rotation of interior pass rushers. I don't see Jones or Dial adding more esp. when we already have run-stuffing depth in Mitchell and D.J. Jones. If we were running a pure 3-4 again, Dial and Jones would be good fits but not so much now...but if Z wanted to keep his boy, Chris Jones, yeah, he'd have to knock off a backup edge rusher like Pita to do it.

I'd bet $ that Pita goes to the PS

Jun 8, 2017 at 9:05 AM

#68

NCommand
Hall of Fame
Posts: 123,365

Originally posted by illinois9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by illinois9er:
I'll be pissed if someone like Dial pushes Blair off the 53.

Yeah. But I think Blair is an ideal fit for this defense. Saleh puts a premium on pass rushing and with Buckner, Thomas, Armstead and Blair, that gives him a nice versatile rotation of interior pass rushers. I don't see Jones or Dial adding more esp. when we already have run-stuffing depth in Mitchell and D.J. Jones. If we were running a pure 3-4 again, Dial and Jones would be good fits but not so much now...but if Z wanted to keep his boy, Chris Jones, yeah, he'd have to knock off a backup edge rusher like Pita to do it.

I'd bet $ that Pita goes to the PS

Likely.

It just depends on how effective he is (he's very raw) and how many Edge Rushers Saleh wants to keep on the 53/46.

ER/SAM/LEFT END: Elvis Dumervil; Eli Harold
ER/LEO/RIGHT END: Aaron Lynch; Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Ahmad Brooks

Jun 8, 2017 at 2:03 PM

#69

SmokeCrabtrees
Veteran
Posts: 15,580

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by illinois9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by illinois9er:
I'll be pissed if someone like Dial pushes Blair off the 53.

Yeah. But I think Blair is an ideal fit for this defense. Saleh puts a premium on pass rushing and with Buckner, Thomas, Armstead and Blair, that gives him a nice versatile rotation of interior pass rushers. I don't see Jones or Dial adding more esp. when we already have run-stuffing depth in Mitchell and D.J. Jones. If we were running a pure 3-4 again, Dial and Jones would be good fits but not so much now...but if Z wanted to keep his boy, Chris Jones, yeah, he'd have to knock off a backup edge rusher like Pita to do it.

I'd bet $ that Pita goes to the PS

Likely.

It just depends on how effective he is (he's very raw) and how many Edge Rushers Saleh wants to keep on the 53/46.

ER/SAM/LEFT END: Elvis Dumervil; Eli Harold
ER/LEO/RIGHT END: Aaron Lynch; Pita Taumoepenu
SAM: Ahmad Brooks

No way he goes to PS if some teams were eyeing him in the 7th/as an UDFA. Those teams know how raw he is but they'd snatch him quick is my gut feeling. Look for an injury special IF he's close but no cigar say taking someone like Carradines place as a pass rusher?

Jun 8, 2017 at 2:06 PM

#70

SmokeCrabtrees
Veteran
Posts: 15,580

Originally posted by Big_Daddy:
Wanted a NT for our 3-4 for years, never got one

Switching to 4-3. Now we get a NT.

Niners gon Niners

You mean a DOMINANT NT cause we've had solid luck going back to Aubrayo Franklin.

If you're referring to DJ Jones, he probably rotates in as he learns the game from Mitchell. And if he ends up becoming a stud NT, he'll look even better playing next to 3 DL instead of two. We're pretty much running a 3-4 now with Thomas/Buck and AA as ends lol.

Jun 8, 2017 at 6:30 PM

#71

GoldenGateGlory
Veteran
Posts: 1,503

We got lots of D Lines. Now it is time to use them properly.

Jun 8, 2017 at 11:56 PM

#72

SmokeCrabtrees
Veteran
Posts: 15,580

Originally posted by GoldenGateGlory:
We got lots of D Lines. Now it is time to use them properly.

Whispers are sounding REALLY encouraging. I got the need, for a beasty D!

[ Edited by SmokeCrabtrees on Jun 9, 2017 at 12:41 PM ]

Jun 9, 2017 at 12:20 AM

#73

Giedi
Veteran
Posts: 34,117

Originally posted by SmokeCrabtrees:
No way he goes to PS if some teams were eyeing him in the 7th/as an UDFA. Those teams know how raw he is but they'd snatch him quick is my gut feeling. Look for an injury special IF he's close but no cigar say taking someone like Carradines place as a pass rusher?

I agree, I wouldn't risk him going to the practice squad either. Again, depending on how he does in pre-season. He definitely would be a candidate for IR.

Jun 9, 2017 at 12:27 AM

#74

Giedi
Veteran
Posts: 34,117

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Wasn't sure when final cuts to 53 was, but as long at it's Sept, we are in great shape. That gives Z and Saleh plenty of time to watch , instruct and take notes on our 13 DLs.(incl ERs). Having this kind of unproven talent early on sure beats the hell out of last two yrs when we didn't have much talent...either in the cupboard or on the field. As long at we have until Sept, i feel confident our DC and his staff will get to see what each and every one of the DLs have to offer, and who has the talent....as well as who doesn't. I just feel really good about a DL that has been miserable for a couple seasons now, and instead of being afraid what we see come season time, i can't wait to see it.

There will be some talent cuts of good talent. We can't keep 13 DLs, but if they are all standouts...well, that is the kind of problem every GM and HC wants. Right now with the BIG 3 as the focus, we have a terrific nucleus, Elvis is a surprise help,(who saw that coming?), and we have great battles coming up. But certain guys like BIG 3 + DJ Jones, Blair , are a helluva way to start out, esp when you have a 3-4 NT in Mitchell also. Who knows where half these guys end up , but we have already seen, and to some extent agreed... there is going to be a lot of movement of players from one play to the next. Having a lot of talent,(altho unproven) PLUS having a bunch of guys who can play multiple postions....man what is football heaven supposed to look like if not like this? But yeah, we have to cut someone, maybe a couple. What we are left with , however, is going to look like a day/night contrast to last 2 yrs. The worst D in the league last yr could very well end up being our consensus top 5 front 7 in the league. Sounds impossible, but looking at the talent , it could well happen.

Now if our DBs, esp the CBs come along...it could make for one helluva yr watching our D just dominate. I'm not worried about that tho, in that a good many of these guys are still just barely on first name basis. But come Sept, i bet it is obvious who stood out ...and who just stood there. Who in his right mind would ever have thot we have so much talent in the DL that it would be extremely difficult to tell who is great....and who is even better? I know it's us, but still, hard to believe. Speaks volumes about our new GM, HC, DC

Personally, between a DJ Jones vs a Quinton Dial, if they do equally well in pre-season I would go with youth vs experience. The reason is that in Saleh's scheme, you don't really have to think, hence you don't need read-&-react experience. Just lots of quickness, speed and athleticism (at least on the D Line positions) We were a 2-14 team last year, adding youth and athleticism I think would be better than keeping aging experience with regards to a lot of positions on the defense. Excluding the Safety and the Middle Linebacker positions who call defensive coverage and alignments, the rest of the defense should go to a youth movement, in my opinion.

Jun 9, 2017 at 9:55 AM

#75

JustinNiner
Veteran
Posts: 6,762

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Wasn't sure when final cuts to 53 was, but as long at it's Sept, we are in great shape. That gives Z and Saleh plenty of time to watch , instruct and take notes on our 13 DLs.(incl ERs). Having this kind of unproven talent early on sure beats the hell out of last two yrs when we didn't have much talent...either in the cupboard or on the field. As long at we have until Sept, i feel confident our DC and his staff will get to see what each and every one of the DLs have to offer, and who has the talent....as well as who doesn't. I just feel really good about a DL that has been miserable for a couple seasons now, and instead of being afraid what we see come season time, i can't wait to see it.

There will be some talent cuts of good talent. We can't keep 13 DLs, but if they are all standouts...well, that is the kind of problem every GM and HC wants. Right now with the BIG 3 as the focus, we have a terrific nucleus, Elvis is a surprise help,(who saw that coming?), and we have great battles coming up. But certain guys like BIG 3 + DJ Jones, Blair , are a helluva way to start out, esp when you have a 3-4 NT in Mitchell also. Who knows where half these guys end up , but we have already seen, and to some extent agreed... there is going to be a lot of movement of players from one play to the next. Having a lot of talent,(altho unproven) PLUS having a bunch of guys who can play multiple postions....man what is football heaven supposed to look like if not like this? But yeah, we have to cut someone, maybe a couple. What we are left with , however, is going to look like a day/night contrast to last 2 yrs. The worst D in the league last yr could very well end up being our consensus top 5 front 7 in the league. Sounds impossible, but looking at the talent , it could well happen.

Now if our DBs, esp the CBs come along...it could make for one helluva yr watching our D just dominate. I'm not worried about that tho, in that a good many of these guys are still just barely on first name basis. But come Sept, i bet it is obvious who stood out ...and who just stood there. Who in his right mind would ever have thot we have so much talent in the DL that it would be extremely difficult to tell who is great....and who is even better? I know it's us, but still, hard to believe. Speaks volumes about our new GM, HC, DC

Personally, between a DJ Jones vs a Quinton Dial, if they do equally well in pre-season I would go with youth vs experience. The reason is that in Saleh's scheme, you don't really have to think, hence you don't need read-&-react experience. Just lots of quickness, speed and athleticism (at least on the D Line positions) We were a 2-14 team last year, adding youth and athleticism I think would be better than keeping aging experience with regards to a lot of positions on the defense. Excluding the Safety and the Middle Linebacker positions who call defensive coverage and alignments, the rest of the defense should go to a youth movement, in my opinion.

i agree, its smart cap wise and potential wise. If they are neck-n-neck...go with the rookie. He has more room to improve and will be more affordable with the next 4 years.

I really like DJ tho. His knock was that he wasnt a 3 down player, but with a heavy rotation...he will get a lot of rest and stay fresh throughout game, making an impact when he is in