Harbaugh Calls Smith "Game Manager"

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Thats fine if you wanna add points to bring Alex Smith back to the discussion, but you pretty much put words in my mouth. You said I compared Montana vs Smith (but I didn't). You said I think we can beat teams with 120 yards passing (but I didn't).

The reason I posted in this thread was to point out that I don't consider "game manager" a bad label. I made a general statement without making judgments on Smith's play. There's already a Smith thread so I didn't wanna bring my opinions on his play here.


I disagree. Pittsburgh's o-line was as bad as ours, if not worse. A lot of people credited Big Ben's ability to avoid the sack because many felt that he should have been sacked more. Nobody was saying he held the ball too long...people were saying his line sucks. As for Green Bay, nobody was saying their line sucks...people were saying Rodgers held onto the ball too long. Rodgers pretty much has the same o-line now as he did 2 years ago, but he doesn't get sacked as often anymore. Its not that his o-line improved, its that he improved on his checkdowns.

This GB/PIT subject doesn't have anything to do with our discussion anymore now, so we can drop this if you want.


Originally I felt game managers were limited in pass attempts. However, you make a good point that there are some game managers who pass the ball often. I've changed my stance and agree that game managers can pass a lot.



This point that you agree with was my original statement and the main message I was trying to get across.

The OP created this thread implying that Harbaugh thinks Smith is a game manager. This led to the assumption that Harbaugh doesn't think highly of Smith since game managers are viewed in a negative light. I'm just pointing out that being labeled a game manager isn't always a bad thing because there have been elite QBs who played that role. I'm NOT saying Smith is a poor game manager OR an elite game manager. I'm just saying that we don't know exactly how Harbaugh feels about Smith because being labeled a game manager isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I guess that leaves us with 1 disagreement. I consider Joe Montana a game manager and you don't. Let me ask you this (and please address this one)...

Did you consider Joe Montana a game manager during his first Super Bowl run in 1981? (Disregard the rest of his career, I'm just talking about the 1981 Super Bowl year)

I did not intend to say you said those things. You're bringing quarterbacks like Elway, Aikman, and Montana, and I was just trying to bring things back into perspective.

I think you're missing the boat on Big Ben. Yeah Big Ben avoids sack with his humongous frame and agility but that also leads to false of sense of security and creates additional sacks as well. Big Ben is one of the most sacked quarterbacks, he's also 5th all time in yards per pass attempt. See a common theme. Holds onto the ball looking for the big play. Yeah his O line has been inadequate but so was Green Bay's before Buluga got going. They made additions that helped solidify the line as well as Rodgers cutting back on holding onto the ball too much.

I'm glad that we seem to be coming on the same page now. I don't mean to be disrepectful because your points have been really good even if we aren't necessarily agreeing that much. I was not old enough to watch Joe Montana back in the early 80's. I vaguely remember the later 2 Super Bowls, and was really brought up cherishing the Steve Young 49ers. Statisically speaking we finished 7th in passing, 19th in rushing, and 7th in scoring offense. Joe Montana had a pretty typical year. 300 completions 480 attempts 3,500 yards 19 touchdowns 87 qb rating. Looking at the playoffs he had 30 attempts in both playoff games and 286 and 305 yards. We scored 38 and 28 points in those games. In the Super Bowl 14-22 157 yards 1 touchdown. Overrall I don't think I'd classify that as a game manager.

You started off with John Elway (96-98) and Aikman, I think those guys illistrate your point alot better than Joe Montana ever did.

Originally posted by valrod33:
I too am an Alexsexual

everybody knows that

Originally posted by unst4bl3:

Originally posted by valrod33:
I too am an Alexsexual

I too, am an Alexaholic.

I prefer MRS Smith.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
I did not intend to say you said those things. You're bringing quarterbacks like Elway, Aikman, and Montana, and I was just trying to bring things back into perspective.

I brought Elway, Aikman, and Montana into the discussion to support my view that game managers can be good players. The discussion isn't completely about those players, its more about the topic of game managers being capable of being elite QBs. Those players are just examples of the bigger picture and original topic

This is how my example ties in with the original post of this thread:

Harbaugh's game manager comment isn't necessarily a knock on Smith because some people considered Elway, Aikman, and Montana game managers.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
I think you're missing the boat on Big Ben. Yeah Big Ben avoids sack with his humongous frame and agility but that also leads to false of sense of security and creates additional sacks as well. Big Ben is one of the most sacked quarterbacks, he's also 5th all time in yards per pass attempt. See a common theme. Holds onto the ball looking for the big play. Yeah his O line has been inadequate but so was Green Bay's before Buluga got going. They made additions that helped solidify the line as well as Rodgers cutting back on holding onto the ball too much.

Big Ben's offensive system, like Troy Aikman, is built on intermediate routes not WCO shorter routes. So naturally, his ypa will be high. In the Steelers games I've seen, I noticed more sacks due to o-line breakdowns rather than Ben holding the ball too long.

The only new addition Green Bay made to their o-line was Bulaga. Other than Bulaga, the o-line from 2009-2010 remained exactly the same. When Bulaga was inserted as the starter, he was a downgrade to veteran RT Mark Tauscher...not an upgrade. Rodgers has cut down on taking sacks with a downgraded line, which means the sacks were due to the QB not the line. Bulaga has gotten better this season though.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Statisically speaking we finished 7th in passing, 19th in rushing, and 7th in scoring offense. Joe Montana had a pretty typical year. 300 completions 480 attempts 3,500 yards 19 touchdowns 87 qb rating. Looking at the playoffs he had 30 attempts in both playoff games and 286 and 305 yards. We scored 38 and 28 points in those games. In the Super Bowl 14-22 157 yards 1 touchdown. Overrall I don't think I'd classify that as a game manager.

In the 1981 regular season, the 49ers as a team passed the ball 517 times and ran the ball 560 times. That means we passed 48% of the time and ran 52% of the time.

In the Divisional Playoff game vs the Giants, we passed the ball 31 times and ran the ball 31 times.

In the Super Bowl, we passed the ball 22 times and ran the ball 34 times.

Originally posted by LambdaChi49:
I prefer MRS Smith.

His wife is hot.

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
I brought Elway, Aikman, and Montana into the discussion to support my view that game managers can be good players. The discussion isn't completely about those players, its more about the topic of game managers being capable of being elite QBs. Those players are just examples of the bigger picture and original topic

This is how my example ties in with the original post of this thread:

Harbaugh's game manager comment isn't necessarily a knock on Smith because some people considered Elway, Aikman, and Montana game managers.



Big Ben's offensive system, like Troy Aikman, is built on intermediate routes not WCO shorter routes. So naturally, his ypa will be high. In the Steelers games I've seen, I noticed more sacks due to o-line breakdowns rather than Ben holding the ball too long.

The only new addition Green Bay made to their o-line was Bulaga. Other than Bulaga, the o-line from 2009-2010 remained exactly the same. When Bulaga was inserted as the starter, he was a downgrade to veteran RT Mark Tauscher...not an upgrade. Rodgers has cut down on taking sacks with a downgraded line, which means the sacks were due to the QB not the line. Bulaga has gotten better this season though.



In the 1981 regular season, the 49ers as a team passed the ball 517 times and ran the ball 560 times. That means we passed 48% of the time and ran 52% of the time.

In the Divisional Playoff game vs the Giants, we passed the ball 31 times and ran the ball 31 times.

In the Super Bowl, we passed the ball 22 times and ran the ball 34 times.

I'm pretty sure there was injuries to Green Bay's line in 09, and you're talking about a high pick being inserted to the lineup. I disagree with you assessment on Big Ben. I've watched him play for years, and he holds onto the ball looking to make a big play down the field.

I never said we were a pass first team. Those were the exception to the rules back in the 80's. My point is we were the same team in 81 that we were in 84, 88 and 89. Why would my opinion change?

Originally posted by tjd808185:
I'm pretty sure there was injuries to Green Bay's line in 09, and you're talking about a high pick being inserted to the lineup. I disagree with you assessment on Big Ben. I've watched him play for years, and he holds onto the ball looking to make a big play down the field.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
I never said we were a pass first team.

Thats not what I'm implying or trying to prove. You claimed we had a balanced attack and I agreed with you. But thats not what I'm arguing. You brought up stats showing that Joe had a lot of pass attempts in the playoffs, and I countered that by showing that we had more running attempts. I assumed you were implying that we relied on Joe's arm to win (which is why you brought up his 30 attempts), and I'm showing you that we relied on the run just as much (if not more).

Originally posted by tjd808185:
I never said we were a pass first team. Those were the exception to the rules back in the 80's. My point is we were the same team in 81 that we were in 84, 88 and 89. Why would my opinion change?

Remember, I'm asking you to consider the 1981 season only.

Lets take another look at those statistics and I'll explain why I brought those up:

In the 1981 regular season, the 49ers as a team passed the ball 517 times and ran the ball 560 times.
-The ball was in the running backs hands more than Joe throughout the season. Joe was asked to manage games during this year as the HBs had more opportunities than him.

In the Divisional Playoff game vs the Giants, we passed the ball 31 times and ran the ball 31 times.
-Joe wasn't asked to win the game alone. The run/pass ratio was split 50/50.

In the Super Bowl, we passed the ball 22 times and ran the ball 34 times.
-This is a perfect example of a game manager type of game. We barely passed the ball in favor of running it. Joe stayed within the system and played efficiently. What Joe did in this game is similar to what occurred throughout the 1981 regular season. We ran the ball and Joe managed the games with less passing attempts compared to the run game.

What is it about the 1981 season that makes you feel so strongly against Joe Montana being a game manager that year?

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
We'll just have to agree to disagree.


Thats not what I'm implying or trying to prove. You claimed we had a balanced attack and I agreed with you. But thats not what I'm arguing. You brought up stats showing that Joe had a lot of pass attempts in the playoffs, and I countered that by showing that we had more running attempts. I assumed you were implying that we relied on Joe's arm to win (which is why you brought up his 30 attempts), and I'm showing you that we relied on the run just as much (if not more).


Remember, I'm asking you to consider the 1981 season only.

Lets take another look at those statistics and I'll explain why I brought those up:

In the 1981 regular season, the 49ers as a team passed the ball 517 times and ran the ball 560 times.
-The ball was in the running backs hands more than Joe throughout the season. Joe was asked to manage games during this year as the HBs had more opportunities than him.

In the Divisional Playoff game vs the Giants, we passed the ball 31 times and ran the ball 31 times.
-Joe wasn't asked to win the game alone. The run/pass ratio was split 50/50.

In the Super Bowl, we passed the ball 22 times and ran the ball 34 times.
-This is a perfect example of a game manager type of game. We barely passed the ball in favor of running it. Joe stayed within the system and played efficiently. What Joe did in this game is similar to what occurred during the 1981 regular season. We ran the ball and Joe managed the games with less passing attempts compared to the run game.

What is it about the 1981 season that makes you feel so strongly against Joe Montana being a game manager that year?

Like I've repeatedly said a balanced attack is not necessarily a game manager back in the 80's. 52-48 run pass ratio is a standard offense back in those days (The league percentage was 32.4 runs to 31.7 passes per game). So roughly 51-49 in favor of the run. We had the same trust in 81 than we did any other year. Joe Montana averaged 220 yards per game in 81 not 140 yards. 22/56 is not 48% percent. On average we passed the ball 30 times a game in 81, and only passed the ball 22 times in the Super Bowl. Obviously that isn't similar to what occurred in that year.

I'll give you that he was a game manager in the Super Bowl against Cincinnati, but ultimately that's one game. Guess what Peyton Manning was a game manager in his Super Bowl victory too. Jake Delhomme was surprising gunslinger for Carolina. I'll take the bulk of the season and playoffs compared to that one game. 9th in pass attempts, 7th in pass yards. I don't describe that as a game manager at all.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
We'll just have to agree to disagree.


Thats not what I'm implying or trying to prove. You claimed we had a balanced attack and I agreed with you. But thats not what I'm arguing. You brought up stats showing that Joe had a lot of pass attempts in the playoffs, and I countered that by showing that we had more running attempts. I assumed you were implying that we relied on Joe's arm to win (which is why you brought up his 30 attempts), and I'm showing you that we relied on the run just as much (if not more).


Remember, I'm asking you to consider the 1981 season only.

Lets take another look at those statistics and I'll explain why I brought those up:

In the 1981 regular season, the 49ers as a team passed the ball 517 times and ran the ball 560 times.
-The ball was in the running backs hands more than Joe throughout the season. Joe was asked to manage games during this year as the HBs had more opportunities than him.

In the Divisional Playoff game vs the Giants, we passed the ball 31 times and ran the ball 31 times.
-Joe wasn't asked to win the game alone. The run/pass ratio was split 50/50.

In the Super Bowl, we passed the ball 22 times and ran the ball 34 times.
-This is a perfect example of a game manager type of game. We barely passed the ball in favor of running it. Joe stayed within the system and played efficiently. What Joe did in this game is similar to what occurred during the 1981 regular season. We ran the ball and Joe managed the games with less passing attempts compared to the run game.

What is it about the 1981 season that makes you feel so strongly against Joe Montana being a game manager that year?

Like I've repeatedly said a balanced attack is not necessarily a game manager back in the 80's. 52-48 run pass ratio is a standard offense back in those days (The league percentage was 32.4 runs to 31.7 passes per game). So roughly 51-49 in favor of the run. We had the same trust in 81 than we did any other year. Joe Montana averaged 220 yards per game in 81 not 140 yards. 22/56 is not 48% percent. On average we passed the ball 30 times a game in 81, and only passed the ball 22 times in the Super Bowl. Obviously that isn't similar to what occurred in that year.

I'll give you that he was a game manager in the Super Bowl against Cincinnati, but ultimately that's one game. Guess what Peyton Manning was a game manager in his Super Bowl victory too. Jake Delhomme was surprising gunslinger for Carolina. I'll take the bulk of the season and playoffs compared to that one game. 9th in pass attempts, 7th in pass yards. I don't describe that as a game manager at all.

Damn aren't you two tired of arguing yet?

Lol at anyone comparing HOF QB's to Smith. Is this what our fanbase is resorting to?

Originally posted by SJniner7:
Lol at anyone comparing HOF QB's to Smith. Is this what our fanbase is resorting to?

You might want to actually read it bro, if that was the point you got, you might have misunderstood. They are arguing about game managers, Smith isn't really part of the discussion, it has gone past the thread title.

I'd like to point this out... just found it interesting.

Alex has only attempted 3 passes that were 21 yds or longer. You know how many were completed? 2 of them. Know what the 3rd one was? Yep... the deep seam pass to VD that he wussed out on when he saw the safety coming over. A well thrown ball that should have been caught... however VD was interfered with by the underneath DB and did not make a real effort to go up and get the ball afterwards.

I'll tell you this, there have been a few opportunities per game where MAYBE Alex should have held the ball for a second longer and gone to a deeper route. I'll give you that... but are we really seeing what he is seeing? Are you so sure that they would have been smart throws? We are a WCO... we dink and dunk often... that's where Jim wants us right now, and our 31st ranked OL and average WRs are probably a good indication of why that is.

Everyone loved Shaun Hill and he was all about the short passes. Even Montana and Garcia were big on underneath passes and check-downs. So I ask myself, is this really about the short passes? Or is this about people looking at other teams that are wildly chucking passes deep and they want more of that excitement? Or is this because it happens to be the ONLY possible thing to gripe on #11 about at this point? Be honest...

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Exactly what most of us are thinking. Just too lazy to type it up.

LOL...I'm too tired to do anything but type! And read, of course.

Originally posted by oldman9er:
I'd like to point this out... just found it interesting.

Alex has only attempted 3 passes that were 21 yds or longer. You know how many were completed? 2 of them. Know what the 3rd one was? Yep... the deep seam pass to VD that he wussed out on when he saw the safety coming over. A well thrown ball that should have been caught... however VD was interfered with by the underneath DB and did not make a real effort to go up and get the ball afterwards.

I'll tell you this, there have been a few opportunities per game where MAYBE Alex should have held the ball for a second longer and gone to a deeper route. I'll give you that... but are we really seeing what he is seeing? Are you so sure that they would have been smart throws? We are a WCO... we dink and dunk often... that's where Jim wants us right now, and our 31st ranked OL and average WRs are probably a good indication of why that is.

Everyone loved Shaun Hill and he was all about the short passes. Even Montana and Garcia were big on underneath passes and check-downs. So I ask myself, is this really about the short passes? Or is this about people looking at other teams that are wildly chucking passes deep and they want more of that excitement? Or is this because it happens to be the ONLY possible thing to gripe on #11 about at this point? Be honest...

That is exactly it man, then you have the guys that have a dislike of Smith deeply ingrained into their very souls that they only see the negative. They are the easy ones to spot, you know the modus operandi. If Smith continues to improve you will hear the arguments get sillier and sillier. I just hope he plays well or bad enough to make the decision about resigning him clear cut. I am on the fence about that subject right now, but being the cautious optimist I am, I hope for the best. It would be nice if the QB search was for a backup for down the road and not next year because we are going to need to upgrade the secondary I fear.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:
That is exactly it man, then you have the guys that have a dislike of Smith deeply ingrained into their very souls that they only see the negative. They are the easy ones to spot, you know the modus operandi. If Smith continues to improve you will hear the arguments get sillier and sillier. I just hope he plays well or bad enough to make the decision about resigning him clear cut. I am on the fence about that subject right now, but being the cautious optimist I am, I hope for the best. It would be nice if the QB search was for a backup for down the road and not next year because we are going to need to upgrade the secondary I fear.

Would be fantastic if Alex does well and gets re-signed... for a number of reasons.

Of course, because our QB success probably means we had a lot to smile about this season...
Gives Kap more time to develop, so we can determine if he is our future or just a solid backup...
Payback misery for those on forums that have made things nearly intolerable around the net ( lol )...
Fantasy good story for the perseverance of Alex..

AND... as you allude to, we can focus our draft/off-season priorities on strengthening the secondary, OL, rush LB, whatever needs fixin'.