Originally posted by tjd808185:
Before I start, let me restate what I said in my previous post.
"I provided stats to support my point, but as we all know, stats can be misleading. I do feel the pass attempt stats prove my point, however they aren't what I base 100% of my opinions on. I classify game manager QBs based on ALL (not some) of the characteristics I think make a game manager. Stats provide some support, but the qualities I listed are more telling than numbers."
The reason I don't base my opinions 100% on stats is because stats aren't always valid, for me and everybody else.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
The number of pass attempts has increased dramatically. You're comparing the extremes of the 80's to the extremes today. You're right there was teams back in the 80's that passed the ball on every down, but in today's NFL every single team including teams like us who pass the ball 45% of plays. You want of examples of pass happy with game managing quarterbacks try us, Seattle,
-I used Dan Marino, Manning, Moon, and Farve because they were pass happy QBs in different eras. You claim they are the extremes of their eras, however their pass attempts are similar to many other pass heavy QBs of their era. Like I said, the number of actual attempts haven't gone up...just the number of QBs throwing as much as them.
-You consider us pass happy at this point of the season?
-Seattle is a good example that supports your point.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
There's alot of quarterbacks that you'd probally classify as game managers who took alot sacks. For instance Ben Roethlisburger. Green
You also have to look at the reason for taking sacks. Sometimes its because of bad o-line play, holding the ball too long, bad QB play, etc. Trent Dilfer, who we all consider a game manager, took many sacks. It was mainly due to his inability to read defenses fast enough.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Green Bay finished 7th in time of possession last year without any run game whatsoever. You might want to rethink that position about his drives not controlling the clock.
I was unaware of GB controlling the clock that well. I considered them more of a quick strike team. The stat you provided proved me wrong here.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
Not too mention I can list a quarterback that you listed as a game manager that take sacks left and right too. Ben Roethlisburger ring a bell. Apparently you've never watched him play. Big Ben's style is too look for big plays down the field too, and he takes sacks because of it.
Ben Roethlisgerger? Yeah that rings a bell. He's the QB that played behind one of the worst o-lines. And yes, I've watched him play and seen him get hit on his dropbacks. The Steelers o-line was well known for breaking down and allowing easy pressure (like our current o-line). Big Ben had to rely on his tackle-breaking ability often because he was getting hit before he could set. Even when he was injured, his backups (including game manager Charlie Batch) were getting killed too.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
You got guys like Sam Bradford who had 500+ attempts and is still be asked to manage games.
Are you saying you can pass the ball alot and still be a game manager?
If so, why can't Joe Montana be a game manager? According to you, Joe threw the ball a lot in the 80s based on the standards of that era. So if Joe passed a lot AND managed games, is it so difficult to accept that others could consider him a game manager?
Originally posted by tjd808185:
I don't have time to address alot of your points and we're starting to go in circles now. Here's what separates me from you. I do not classify every single quarterback that operated under a balanced attack and a good defense as a game manager.
I made a general statement about most QBs in the 80s being game managers, which I realize was stupid to make a basic judgment. I didn't look into each and every QB and I didn't watch ALL of those QBs play, so I turned to stats as
support. But like I said several times, my opinions are based on the QB's gameday approach/style...not stats alone.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
I don't even know why I'm wasting so much time arguing this, because here's the end game. You're comparing a guy who led one of the greatest offenses in football history to a guy the running worse offense in football.
I CLEARLY stated that I'm not comparing any players as far as abilities/production goes. I said game managers can be both poor & elite.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
The standard of quarterback play required to win in this league is increasing by the day. There's like 8 quarterbacks right now with a 100+ rating. If you think we're going to beat those teams with 120 yards passing I don't what to say to you. No Alex hate intended, we got to open things up if we're going to take that next step. Let's say you're right and Joe Montana was a game manager. Alex Smith doesn't come close to that category. We'd be jumping for joy if he fell under the Joe Flacco category. I think he's played adequate football right now, between the 16-22 range so I'm not trying to hate on him I'm just making sure that I'm adding perspective to your extreme comparision.
Do you realize that you failed to address points I
did make, and are addressing points I
never made?
1) I agreed with you that the standard of QB play is higher.
2) I already stated that I
DO NOT expect our team to win with a Trent Dilfer-like game manager performance. So no, I
DO NOT think we can beat explosive teams with 120 passing yards.
3) I
NEVER said or implied that Alex Smith belongs in the same category as Joe Montana as far as ability/performance goes. I
DID say that game managers can be poor, average, or elite. I consider both players game managers. Smith an average game manager, and Joe an elite game manager.
Originally posted by tjd808185:
I'd classify Tom Brady 01 as a game manager
I don't even know why I'm wasting so much time arguing this, because here's the end game. My
MAIN POINT is that being considered a game manager is not necessarily a bad thing, because some great QBs are/were game managers. You said it yourself, you considered the great
Tom Brady a game manager at one point. If a great QB like Tom Brady was a game manager at one point (and won a Super Bowl at the point in time), why is it such a bad thing to be labeled as one?
Lets put all stats aside. This example proves my point perfectly without the use of stats or game manager definitions. You used a HOF QB as an example of a game manager. Thats my point, you can be a game manager and be great. People think of the Trent Dilfers when the idea of game manager is brought up...what about the 01 Tom Brady?
