Baas=Heitmann=Snyder=Rags...and then there's Wallace

Let's settle the Heitmann debate once and for all by using facts and common knowledge.

Heitmann become a regular starter in 2004, playing at LG. He started in every single regular season game. Ted Tollner was the offensive coordinator.

Heitmann shifted to a RG/C role in 2005, again starting all 16 games that season. This was Nolan's first year as HC and Mike McCarthy as offensive coordinator.

From 2006-2008, Heitmann played only at C and remained healthy as he missed two games due to injury during the three year stretch. During this time period, Turner, Hostler, and Martz occupied the offensive coordinator position. This period also saw two offensive line coaches in Warhop and Foerster.

This past year, Heitmann played under Raye (another new offensive coordinator) and remained under Foerster's coaching. Now, he has a new OL coach in Solari, and he's basically a lock to start the 2010 season at center.

If you look from 2006 until present day, Heitmann has been the only one who hasn't been replaced by another player.

LT: Jennings (w/Snyder) -> Staley
LG: Allen -> Baas -> Iupati
OC: Heitmann
RG: Smiley -> Snyder -> Wragge -> Rachal
RT: Harris -> Staley (converted to LT) -> Snyder -> Davis

The 49ers brought in 3 main guys to compete for the center position: Baas, Wragge, and Wallace. Wragge and Wallace aren't even locks to make the final 53, and Baas is being groomed as a LG/OC backup. Heitmann won that battle.

I guess my main point is this: Out of 5 offensive coordinators (2005+), 3 offensive line coaches, 2 head coaches, and 2 GM types (McCloughan and Baalke), Heitmann is the only constant remaining along the offensive line.

I just don't understand how anyone can conclude that center is a pressing concern with the facts stated above.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
You guys can stick your head in the sand all you want. However, when week after week, writer after writer, and sportscaster after sportscasters make flattering statements about his play, at some point you have to abandon "the earth is square" philosophy.

Just admit you cannot fairly analyze his play, admit you have a bias against him, and move on. For myself, I'm just joining the rest of the civilized world in my assessment.

By the way, I'm sure MB has zero access to those in the organization who feel that Heitmann is a pretty damn good player....MD said with dripping sarcasm.

Cheers.

Listen, I'm not the one who called Heitmann a p***y.

Beerows did.

And, by your admittedly blind adherence to anything anyone writes about Heitmann (except us independents on the webzone), you did too.

Let's see, who is likely be less biased in their assessment of a player,

(a) those who consider what they've seen of his play and base their assessment on that, or

(b) those who apparently start off with some odd manlove for the guy, those who ignore his actual play over several years, those who rely on anything they can find that might be even a little flattering about the guy (while ignoring any criticism), and, those who angrily chastise anyone who might question, even in the slightest, Heitmann's play by making huge exaggerations about what they are actually saying?

Answer: a. (I'll give you the teacher's version of the test, with the answer included.)

So, "week after week," huh. Who wrote anything flattering about Heitmann's play last week? The week before? And the week before? The week before? Answer: No one. This is just more gross exaggeration and hyperbole. Aside from the most recent few lines from MB yesterday, where he called Heitmann a p***y (not exactly flattery), you're relying on stuff that's at least two years old.

MB might have access to the coaching staff and the other players, but you don't know if he's specifically talked to any of them about Heitmann and his play. You're just assuming that they'd say good stuff. Blindly making a huge leap of faith, and ignoring reality.

And you think we have our heads in the sand?

MB's recent few lines, quoted by you above, indicate that Heitmann is not assertive and lacks in aggression. "He's so unassuming." That's exactly what we've been saying--that he needs to step up, play with more of an attitude, be more aggressive, especially on important, short yardage downs.

If you'd pull your own head out of wherever it may be buried, actually pay attention to what we've been saying, and stop with the hysterical overstatements, maybe you'd recognize that we're not condemning Heitmann, we're simply pointing out that he may no longer be the best player on a very poor OL.

Cause the OL's not gonna be as bad as it was, hopefully, due to the infusion of new talent and new coaching. Capice? What part of that is "the earth is square" unreasonable? Answer: None of it.

You are a pretty bright guy, but this response was one of the stupidest responses I have ever heard. I hope you can get your emotions in check and backtrack.

You end your response with "we're not condemning Heitmann", but you start your response implying that he is a "p*ssy". How do you rectify these two comments. But, I digress......

Let's revisit MB's chat to see how your bias has blinded you so far that the English language is becoming incomprehensible to you. Here is the question and answer, once again:

Q:
Is there any chance David Baas could challenge Eric Heitmann for his job as the starting Center? Given Baas' record at Michigan and recognition he received as a Center there.

Friday May 28, 2010 12:42 Six-Ace-Deuce
12:43 MattB_49: Heitmann is one of the most underrated centers in the league. He's so unassuming. My joke is that if he starts a locker-room fistfight and the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk, he'll go to his first Pro Bowl. if the 49ers reach the playoffs, in fact, I definitely can see Heitmann going to Hawaii

How in God's green earth did you translate "unassuming" to being a "p*ssy"? You did read..... "the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk", which obviously does not question his toughness, but exposure on a national level. He is saying that Heitmann goes about his job quietly, and therefore....wait for the bell...is "one of the most underrated centers in the league". And, that if the Niners go to the playoff, he will get.....exposure. Any other interpretation is moronic, especially one that tries to imply that he is soft.

Please defend how you somehow came to the conclusion that MB was questioning his toughness, or pull back and admit that your comment was stupid. I'll give you a mulligan, and we can move on.

Boy, Maddog, you're usually not as obtuse as this post makes you seem.

Look at EVERYTHING MB says. He mentions that Heitmann is more than just "unassuming," he says he's "SO" unassuming--meaning even more than usually unassuming or quiet. He's saying that Heitmann is quieter than the usual quiet guy, less assertive than a regular wallflower, nonaggressive even more than a normally passive guy. (In other words, he's a wuss.)

Come on. Your reading comprehension is better than that. You can see that MB has "damned Heitmann with faint praise."

He says that "IF he starts a locker room fight, and it gets picked up on ESPN, etc., THEN he'll go to the pro bowl." In other words, if the most passive, least aggressive, most unassuming guy in the locker room ever starts a fight, and it's picked up by the media, then and only then he might go to the pro bowl.

That does not sound like MB is willing to wager heavily on Heitmann going to the pro bowl anytime soon, or starting a fistfight either, for that matter.

MB is saying that, although he likes Heitmann, he finds Heitmann to be extremely passive, very nonaggressive. He's essentially called Heitmann a p***y. Frankly, that's NOT a good thing in a professional football player, no matter how you try to spin it.

I didn't call Heitmann a p***y. I said that MB had politely called him that. (And he did.) Try not to put words that I didn't write into my posts and you'll have less trouble understanding them.

BTW, I hope all is well with you. You said that my post was "one of the stupidest you've ever heard." I sincerely hope that doesn't mean your vision is suffering in any way, that someone had to read my post aloud to you.

And you give me way too much credit. I've read, and written, many much stupider posts.

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by English:
The will to live starts to ebb when you read this thread. However, I must take issue with the poster, whoever it was, who argued that the current trialling of Baas and others at center (thus apparently taking snaps away from Heitmann) means a lack of confidence in Heit.

Regardless of my opinion of Heit, this just doesn't hold up as an argument in May. Perhaps they are checking to see who should back him up. Perhaps they have decided to dump Baas as a guard and are just trying to see if he can be used as backup center before they dump him.

Phone Solari and ask him!

Sorry its that bad.

My point with the "trialing of Baas and Wragge at center" was perhaps poorly stated.

I attempted to say that if all the team was concerned about was a backup, then why would they take any snaps away from Heitmann? They wouldn't do so with someone like Willis, or VD, or Justin Smith. Backups for those guys try out with the other backups.

So when I hear that Baas is taking Heitmann's snaps at center with the first team, I have to ask why. It seems very unlikely that Baas will replace Heitmann, but he did so at the last OTAs. Is that a message to Heitmann?

It is early, but Solari's recent interview indicated that he wants to settle on a starting five asap. So perhaps the "trialing" of Baas had more importance than we know.

If I could, I would call Solari and ask him.

It was you was it, oldninerdude!

OK. I could be wrong. But I don't think that snaps in May mean anything. That was kind of my point, plus I wonder, as I implied, if the team are wondering what to do with Baas.

But unlike a whole bundle of posters round here, you and I are patient enough to wait and see how it pans out.

ps a bottle of IPA on it? Heitmann is our starter this season!

Done! And I'll gladly buy you one, cause I'm relatively sure Heitmann will be there--tho perhaps with a renewed "bad attitude" courtesy of Solari and Brown.

Originally posted by GEEK:
I just don't understand how anyone can conclude that center is a pressing concern with the facts stated above.

Oh I dunno maybe cause the Line has been SHAT every year and he's the one constant in the stinky pile of dog poo that we call a Line, maybe?

~Ceadder

Originally posted by GEEK:
Let's settle the Heitmann debate once and for all by using facts and common knowledge.

Heitmann become a regular starter in 2004, playing at LG. He started in every single regular season game. Ted Tollner was the offensive coordinator.

Heitmann shifted to a RG/C role in 2005, again starting all 16 games that season. This was Nolan's first year as HC and Mike McCarthy as offensive coordinator.

From 2006-2008, Heitmann played only at C and remained healthy as he missed two games due to injury during the three year stretch. During this time period, Turner, Hostler, and Martz occupied the offensive coordinator position. This period also saw two offensive line coaches in Warhop and Foerster.

This past year, Heitmann played under Raye (another new offensive coordinator) and remained under Foerster's coaching. Now, he has a new OL coach in Solari, and he's basically a lock to start the 2010 season at center.

If you look from 2006 until present day, Heitmann has been the only one who hasn't been replaced by another player.

LT: Jennings (w/Snyder) -> Staley
LG: Allen -> Baas -> Iupati
OC: Heitmann
RG: Smiley -> Snyder -> Wragge -> Rachal
RT: Harris -> Staley (converted to LT) -> Snyder -> Davis

The 49ers brought in 3 main guys to compete for the center position: Baas, Wragge, and Wallace. Wragge and Wallace aren't even locks to make the final 53, and Baas is being groomed as a LG/OC backup. Heitmann won that battle.

I guess my main point is this: Out of 5 offensive coordinators (2005+), 3 offensive line coaches, 2 head coaches, and 2 GM types (McCloughan and Baalke), Heitmann is the only constant remaining along the offensive line.

I just don't understand how anyone can conclude that center is a pressing concern with the facts stated above.

I'm not sure anyone is trying to say that center is a PRESSING concern. I'm certainly not.

I am saying that there are aspects of Heitmann's play that are of some concern, and that although he has been the best of a poor OL these past several years, he's going to have to step it up if he doesn't want to be the worst of an improved OL.

pasodoc started out the thread (I think) by saying he thought Baas, Snyder, Wragge, and Heitmann are second level talents who've been thrown into starting positions, and that Heitmann is the best of the lot.

Maddog chimed in, and essentially conceded that Heitmann is not a top tier, pro bowl or all pro center, then he took issue with any criticism of Heitman's play. Apparently it infuriates him when someone points out that Heitmann, all too often, loses the battle at the LOS and gets pushed backwards--even though anyone who pays attention to the OL play has seen exactly that happen.

We're essentially arguing about nothing, but its been amusing.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by GEEK:
I just don't understand how anyone can conclude that center is a pressing concern with the facts stated above.

Oh I dunno maybe cause the Line has been SHAT every year and he's the one constant in the stinky pile of dog poo that we call a Line, maybe?

~Ceadder

WHAT? Oh, no, you didn't.

Why, just yesterday, no lesser light than Matt Burrows--yes, THE Matt Burrows--wrote that Heitmann might, possibly, maybe, perhaps someday could go to the Pro Bowl, if he grows a pair.

Boy, is Maddog ever gonna be mad at you.

OND latest post pretty well sums up my thots. I can add that as far as MD suggesting that i have my head stuck in the sand...well, it is kinda dark...and a bit damp down here. Incidentally, MD, whoever ends up at C, probably Heit, i will be pulling for him. We don't have a "lock down OL" this yr...YET. But if my two boys come thru we will have a 3 man lock down OL, and i have every hope that solari/bigRay bring rachal back to what he does best...flatten people. For the 5th spot, be it heit or other, i am going to be pulling for him. Why? because i think we are on the cusp of having a whale of a yr on the OL, and as goes the OL, so goes the 9ers. We were 7-9, 8-8 last two yrs with an OL that stunk to high heaven. One good OLineman, staley, cannot make much difference on a matador line, characterized by "look out" blocks(courtesy of Dan Pastorini, Houston oilers). We are now poised to do what we should have done from day one, 8 long yrs ago. Take our OL and wrap it around our opponents necks. If heit is at C, i just hope he plays lites out, because if he does, this team can go deep into playoffs.

As i have mentioned many times, if OL plays great, so does qB, RB, WRs, TEs, and likewise D, who won't have to play 40 mins a game, especially because the O is no longer off the field in 3 quick plays, maybe consuming 2 mins. That should be a thing of the past this yr. So, yeah, i am concerned about heit, but if he is the guy, then hopefully he will play like it. My concerns re: him have been duly and amply noted above.

I hope Snyder doesn't get to see the field too much!

Originally posted by ualrod33:
I hope Snyder doesn't get to see the field too much!

Don't change the subject.

Freakin Noobs.

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by GEEK:
I just don't understand how anyone can conclude that center is a pressing concern with the facts stated above.

Oh I dunno maybe cause the Line has been SHAT every year and he's the one constant in the stinky pile of dog poo that we call a Line, maybe?

~Ceadder

WHAT? Oh, no, you didn't.

Why, just yesterday, no lesser light than Matt Burrows--yes, THE Matt Burrows--wrote that Heitmann might, possibly, maybe, perhaps someday could go to the Pro Bowl, if he grows a pair.

Boy, is Maddog ever gonna be mad at you.

Hey OM9er, I just calls it the way I sees it. That's why everytime they brought that crap out in the announcers booth I caught myself wanting to hurl something big and heavy at the netbook. Oooooh I just realized I'm on the Tower and I have free NFL replay time @ NFL.com

I think I might mosey over and watch the games to get a fresh perspective on how great Heitmann really is. Pro Bowl you say? Man that guy is going to the Hall of Fame...






...as Alex's inductor. He'll start by apologizing for all the blown calls and that missed block that wasted 2 years of Smith's career. lol

~Ceadder

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
You guys can stick your head in the sand all you want. However, when week after week, writer after writer, and sportscaster after sportscasters make flattering statements about his play, at some point you have to abandon "the earth is square" philosophy.

Just admit you cannot fairly analyze his play, admit you have a bias against him, and move on. For myself, I'm just joining the rest of the civilized world in my assessment.

By the way, I'm sure MB has zero access to those in the organization who feel that Heitmann is a pretty damn good player....MD said with dripping sarcasm.

Cheers.

Listen, I'm not the one who called Heitmann a p***y.

Beerows did.

And, by your admittedly blind adherence to anything anyone writes about Heitmann (except us independents on the webzone), you did too.

Let's see, who is likely be less biased in their assessment of a player,

(a) those who consider what they've seen of his play and base their assessment on that, or

(b) those who apparently start off with some odd manlove for the guy, those who ignore his actual play over several years, those who rely on anything they can find that might be even a little flattering about the guy (while ignoring any criticism), and, those who angrily chastise anyone who might question, even in the slightest, Heitmann's play by making huge exaggerations about what they are actually saying?

Answer: a. (I'll give you the teacher's version of the test, with the answer included.)

So, "week after week," huh. Who wrote anything flattering about Heitmann's play last week? The week before? And the week before? The week before? Answer: No one. This is just more gross exaggeration and hyperbole. Aside from the most recent few lines from MB yesterday, where he called Heitmann a p***y (not exactly flattery), you're relying on stuff that's at least two years old.

MB might have access to the coaching staff and the other players, but you don't know if he's specifically talked to any of them about Heitmann and his play. You're just assuming that they'd say good stuff. Blindly making a huge leap of faith, and ignoring reality.

And you think we have our heads in the sand?

MB's recent few lines, quoted by you above, indicate that Heitmann is not assertive and lacks in aggression. "He's so unassuming." That's exactly what we've been saying--that he needs to step up, play with more of an attitude, be more aggressive, especially on important, short yardage downs.

If you'd pull your own head out of wherever it may be buried, actually pay attention to what we've been saying, and stop with the hysterical overstatements, maybe you'd recognize that we're not condemning Heitmann, we're simply pointing out that he may no longer be the best player on a very poor OL.

Cause the OL's not gonna be as bad as it was, hopefully, due to the infusion of new talent and new coaching. Capice? What part of that is "the earth is square" unreasonable? Answer: None of it.

You are a pretty bright guy, but this response was one of the stupidest responses I have ever heard. I hope you can get your emotions in check and backtrack.

You end your response with "we're not condemning Heitmann", but you start your response implying that he is a "p*ssy". How do you rectify these two comments. But, I digress......

Let's revisit MB's chat to see how your bias has blinded you so far that the English language is becoming incomprehensible to you. Here is the question and answer, once again:

Q:
Is there any chance David Baas could challenge Eric Heitmann for his job as the starting Center? Given Baas' record at Michigan and recognition he received as a Center there.

Friday May 28, 2010 12:42 Six-Ace-Deuce
12:43 MattB_49: Heitmann is one of the most underrated centers in the league. He's so unassuming. My joke is that if he starts a locker-room fistfight and the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk, he'll go to his first Pro Bowl. if the 49ers reach the playoffs, in fact, I definitely can see Heitmann going to Hawaii

How in God's green earth did you translate "unassuming" to being a "p*ssy"? You did read..... "the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk", which obviously does not question his toughness, but exposure on a national level. He is saying that Heitmann goes about his job quietly, and therefore....wait for the bell...is "one of the most underrated centers in the league". And, that if the Niners go to the playoff, he will get.....exposure. Any other interpretation is moronic, especially one that tries to imply that he is soft.

Please defend how you somehow came to the conclusion that MB was questioning his toughness, or pull back and admit that your comment was stupid. I'll give you a mulligan, and we can move on.

Boy, Maddog, you're usually not as obtuse as this post makes you seem.

Look at EVERYTHING MB says. He mentions that Heitmann is more than just "unassuming," he says he's "SO" unassuming--meaning even more than usually unassuming or quiet. He's saying that Heitmann is quieter than the usual quiet guy, less assertive than a regular wallflower, nonaggressive even more than a normally passive guy. (In other words, he's a wuss.)

Come on. Your reading comprehension is better than that. You can see that MB has "damned Heitmann with faint praise."

He says that "IF he starts a locker room fight, and it gets picked up on ESPN, etc., THEN he'll go to the pro bowl." In other words, if the most passive, least aggressive, most unassuming guy in the locker room ever starts a fight, and it's picked up by the media, then and only then he might go to the pro bowl.

That does not sound like MB is willing to wager heavily on Heitmann going to the pro bowl anytime soon, or starting a fistfight either, for that matter.

MB is saying that, although he likes Heitmann, he finds Heitmann to be extremely passive, very nonaggressive. He's essentially called Heitmann a p***y. Frankly, that's NOT a good thing in a professional football player, no matter how you try to spin it.

I didn't call Heitmann a p***y. I said that MB had politely called him that. (And he did.) Try not to put words that I didn't write into my posts and you'll have less trouble understanding them.

BTW, I hope all is well with you. You said that my post was "one of the stupidest you've ever heard." I sincerely hope that doesn't mean your vision is suffering in any way, that someone had to read my post aloud to you.

And you give me way too much credit. I've read, and written, many much stupider posts.

i dunno man, when i read that barrows quote i took it as meaning that heitman is so low key that a fist fight would get him noticed for his strong play and get him into the probowl. like hes an unknown and a noise maker like that fist fight would get him noticed. thats how i perceived it anyway.

Originally posted by hondakillerzx:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
You guys can stick your head in the sand all you want. However, when week after week, writer after writer, and sportscaster after sportscasters make flattering statements about his play, at some point you have to abandon "the earth is square" philosophy.

Just admit you cannot fairly analyze his play, admit you have a bias against him, and move on. For myself, I'm just joining the rest of the civilized world in my assessment.

By the way, I'm sure MB has zero access to those in the organization who feel that Heitmann is a pretty damn good player....MD said with dripping sarcasm.

Cheers.

Listen, I'm not the one who called Heitmann a p***y.

Beerows did.

And, by your admittedly blind adherence to anything anyone writes about Heitmann (except us independents on the webzone), you did too.

Let's see, who is likely be less biased in their assessment of a player,

(a) those who consider what they've seen of his play and base their assessment on that, or

(b) those who apparently start off with some odd manlove for the guy, those who ignore his actual play over several years, those who rely on anything they can find that might be even a little flattering about the guy (while ignoring any criticism), and, those who angrily chastise anyone who might question, even in the slightest, Heitmann's play by making huge exaggerations about what they are actually saying?

Answer: a. (I'll give you the teacher's version of the test, with the answer included.)

So, "week after week," huh. Who wrote anything flattering about Heitmann's play last week? The week before? And the week before? The week before? Answer: No one. This is just more gross exaggeration and hyperbole. Aside from the most recent few lines from MB yesterday, where he called Heitmann a p***y (not exactly flattery), you're relying on stuff that's at least two years old.

MB might have access to the coaching staff and the other players, but you don't know if he's specifically talked to any of them about Heitmann and his play. You're just assuming that they'd say good stuff. Blindly making a huge leap of faith, and ignoring reality.

And you think we have our heads in the sand?

MB's recent few lines, quoted by you above, indicate that Heitmann is not assertive and lacks in aggression. "He's so unassuming." That's exactly what we've been saying--that he needs to step up, play with more of an attitude, be more aggressive, especially on important, short yardage downs.

If you'd pull your own head out of wherever it may be buried, actually pay attention to what we've been saying, and stop with the hysterical overstatements, maybe you'd recognize that we're not condemning Heitmann, we're simply pointing out that he may no longer be the best player on a very poor OL.

Cause the OL's not gonna be as bad as it was, hopefully, due to the infusion of new talent and new coaching. Capice? What part of that is "the earth is square" unreasonable? Answer: None of it.

You are a pretty bright guy, but this response was one of the stupidest responses I have ever heard. I hope you can get your emotions in check and backtrack.

You end your response with "we're not condemning Heitmann", but you start your response implying that he is a "p*ssy". How do you rectify these two comments. But, I digress......

Let's revisit MB's chat to see how your bias has blinded you so far that the English language is becoming incomprehensible to you. Here is the question and answer, once again:

Q:
Is there any chance David Baas could challenge Eric Heitmann for his job as the starting Center? Given Baas' record at Michigan and recognition he received as a Center there.

Friday May 28, 2010 12:42 Six-Ace-Deuce
12:43 MattB_49: Heitmann is one of the most underrated centers in the league. He's so unassuming. My joke is that if he starts a locker-room fistfight and the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk, he'll go to his first Pro Bowl. if the 49ers reach the playoffs, in fact, I definitely can see Heitmann going to Hawaii

How in God's green earth did you translate "unassuming" to being a "p*ssy"? You did read..... "the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk", which obviously does not question his toughness, but exposure on a national level. He is saying that Heitmann goes about his job quietly, and therefore....wait for the bell...is "one of the most underrated centers in the league". And, that if the Niners go to the playoff, he will get.....exposure. Any other interpretation is moronic, especially one that tries to imply that he is soft.

Please defend how you somehow came to the conclusion that MB was questioning his toughness, or pull back and admit that your comment was stupid. I'll give you a mulligan, and we can move on.

Boy, Maddog, you're usually not as obtuse as this post makes you seem.

Look at EVERYTHING MB says. He mentions that Heitmann is more than just "unassuming," he says he's "SO" unassuming--meaning even more than usually unassuming or quiet. He's saying that Heitmann is quieter than the usual quiet guy, less assertive than a regular wallflower, nonaggressive even more than a normally passive guy. (In other words, he's a wuss.)

Come on. Your reading comprehension is better than that. You can see that MB has "damned Heitmann with faint praise."

He says that "IF he starts a locker room fight, and it gets picked up on ESPN, etc., THEN he'll go to the pro bowl." In other words, if the most passive, least aggressive, most unassuming guy in the locker room ever starts a fight, and it's picked up by the media, then and only then he might go to the pro bowl.

That does not sound like MB is willing to wager heavily on Heitmann going to the pro bowl anytime soon, or starting a fistfight either, for that matter.

MB is saying that, although he likes Heitmann, he finds Heitmann to be extremely passive, very nonaggressive. He's essentially called Heitmann a p***y. Frankly, that's NOT a good thing in a professional football player, no matter how you try to spin it.

I didn't call Heitmann a p***y. I said that MB had politely called him that. (And he did.) Try not to put words that I didn't write into my posts and you'll have less trouble understanding them.

BTW, I hope all is well with you. You said that my post was "one of the stupidest you've ever heard." I sincerely hope that doesn't mean your vision is suffering in any way, that someone had to read my post aloud to you.

And you give me way too much credit. I've read, and written, many much stupider posts.

i dunno man, when i read that barrows quote i took it as meaning that heitman is so low key that a fist fight would get him noticed for his strong play and get him into the probowl. like hes an unknown and a noise maker like that fist fight would get him noticed. thats how i perceived it anyway.

The reason you perceive it that way is because you are actually attempting to be rational in your analysis. Some of these guys have thrown all rationale out the window because they hate Heitmann so much...and as I have stated all along, their bias against him makes them immune to rational thought, even in the simplest form.

Hence, the "p*ssy" interpretation, which is the oddest (I mean, I can barely stop from shaking my head), strangest, funkiest interpretation of any sentence in modern English history.

The bottom line is that all the beat writers, ESPN's Mike Sando, the castigated, vile broadcasters who announce the Niners games, the Niners' coaches, and the Niners' players who select Heitmann team captain every year since 2006, are all fabulously deranged, confused. The only guys who truly understand Eric Heitmann are the handful of critics on this board. And, for that, I find it odd, stumping, and disturbing.

Originally posted by hondakillerzx:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
You guys can stick your head in the sand all you want. However, when week after week, writer after writer, and sportscaster after sportscasters make flattering statements about his play, at some point you have to abandon "the earth is square" philosophy.

Just admit you cannot fairly analyze his play, admit you have a bias against him, and move on. For myself, I'm just joining the rest of the civilized world in my assessment.

By the way, I'm sure MB has zero access to those in the organization who feel that Heitmann is a pretty damn good player....MD said with dripping sarcasm.

Cheers.

Listen, I'm not the one who called Heitmann a p***y.

Beerows did.

And, by your admittedly blind adherence to anything anyone writes about Heitmann (except us independents on the webzone), you did too.

Let's see, who is likely be less biased in their assessment of a player,

(a) those who consider what they've seen of his play and base their assessment on that, or

(b) those who apparently start off with some odd manlove for the guy, those who ignore his actual play over several years, those who rely on anything they can find that might be even a little flattering about the guy (while ignoring any criticism), and, those who angrily chastise anyone who might question, even in the slightest, Heitmann's play by making huge exaggerations about what they are actually saying?

Answer: a. (I'll give you the teacher's version of the test, with the answer included.)

So, "week after week," huh. Who wrote anything flattering about Heitmann's play last week? The week before? And the week before? The week before? Answer: No one. This is just more gross exaggeration and hyperbole. Aside from the most recent few lines from MB yesterday, where he called Heitmann a p***y (not exactly flattery), you're relying on stuff that's at least two years old.

MB might have access to the coaching staff and the other players, but you don't know if he's specifically talked to any of them about Heitmann and his play. You're just assuming that they'd say good stuff. Blindly making a huge leap of faith, and ignoring reality.

And you think we have our heads in the sand?

MB's recent few lines, quoted by you above, indicate that Heitmann is not assertive and lacks in aggression. "He's so unassuming." That's exactly what we've been saying--that he needs to step up, play with more of an attitude, be more aggressive, especially on important, short yardage downs.

If you'd pull your own head out of wherever it may be buried, actually pay attention to what we've been saying, and stop with the hysterical overstatements, maybe you'd recognize that we're not condemning Heitmann, we're simply pointing out that he may no longer be the best player on a very poor OL.

Cause the OL's not gonna be as bad as it was, hopefully, due to the infusion of new talent and new coaching. Capice? What part of that is "the earth is square" unreasonable? Answer: None of it.

You are a pretty bright guy, but this response was one of the stupidest responses I have ever heard. I hope you can get your emotions in check and backtrack.

You end your response with "we're not condemning Heitmann", but you start your response implying that he is a "p*ssy". How do you rectify these two comments. But, I digress......

Let's revisit MB's chat to see how your bias has blinded you so far that the English language is becoming incomprehensible to you. Here is the question and answer, once again:

Q:
Is there any chance David Baas could challenge Eric Heitmann for his job as the starting Center? Given Baas' record at Michigan and recognition he received as a Center there.

Friday May 28, 2010 12:42 Six-Ace-Deuce
12:43 MattB_49: Heitmann is one of the most underrated centers in the league. He's so unassuming. My joke is that if he starts a locker-room fistfight and the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk, he'll go to his first Pro Bowl. if the 49ers reach the playoffs, in fact, I definitely can see Heitmann going to Hawaii

How in God's green earth did you translate "unassuming" to being a "p*ssy"? You did read..... "the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk", which obviously does not question his toughness, but exposure on a national level. He is saying that Heitmann goes about his job quietly, and therefore....wait for the bell...is "one of the most underrated centers in the league". And, that if the Niners go to the playoff, he will get.....exposure. Any other interpretation is moronic, especially one that tries to imply that he is soft.

Please defend how you somehow came to the conclusion that MB was questioning his toughness, or pull back and admit that your comment was stupid. I'll give you a mulligan, and we can move on.

Boy, Maddog, you're usually not as obtuse as this post makes you seem.

Look at EVERYTHING MB says. He mentions that Heitmann is more than just "unassuming," he says he's "SO" unassuming--meaning even more than usually unassuming or quiet. He's saying that Heitmann is quieter than the usual quiet guy, less assertive than a regular wallflower, nonaggressive even more than a normally passive guy. (In other words, he's a wuss.)

Come on. Your reading comprehension is better than that. You can see that MB has "damned Heitmann with faint praise."

He says that "IF he starts a locker room fight, and it gets picked up on ESPN, etc., THEN he'll go to the pro bowl." In other words, if the most passive, least aggressive, most unassuming guy in the locker room ever starts a fight, and it's picked up by the media, then and only then he might go to the pro bowl.

That does not sound like MB is willing to wager heavily on Heitmann going to the pro bowl anytime soon, or starting a fistfight either, for that matter.

MB is saying that, although he likes Heitmann, he finds Heitmann to be extremely passive, very nonaggressive. He's essentially called Heitmann a p***y. Frankly, that's NOT a good thing in a professional football player, no matter how you try to spin it.

I didn't call Heitmann a p***y. I said that MB had politely called him that. (And he did.) Try not to put words that I didn't write into my posts and you'll have less trouble understanding them.

BTW, I hope all is well with you. You said that my post was "one of the stupidest you've ever heard." I sincerely hope that doesn't mean your vision is suffering in any way, that someone had to read my post aloud to you.

And you give me way too much credit. I've read, and written, many much stupider posts.

i dunno man, when i read that barrows quote i took it as meaning that heitman is so low key that a fist fight would get him noticed for his strong play and get him into the probowl. like hes an unknown and a noise maker like that fist fight would get him noticed. thats how i perceived it anyway.

Then you're reading far more into it that is there.

I could be wrong. I mean, I only have a MA in English from UCLA, a BA in English from Cal (Go Bears!), taught High School English for a number of years, and spend my time now writing briefs and arguments. So maybe I'm misreading it. But I don't think so.

And you're missing the point. MB's articles are interesting, but he's hardly an expert on OL play. I don't know that I've ever read an article by him that focuses, solely, on Heitmann or Heitmann's play. Are we to assume, therefore, that he doesn't think Heitmann is important enough, good enough, to merit such an article?

And why can't we depend on our own eyes? I can think of a number of plays in the past three years where Heitmann got pushed back into the backfield on an important, short yardage play. And how many fourth an one's have the Niners succeeded at in the past several years--when they try to run it or sneak it up the middle. None.

I don't give a fig about whether MB or MM think Heitmann's a swell guy or not. I'm sure he is. But there's a problem there, whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not. It could be just an attitude problem, or a lack of attitude--but whatever it is, Solari and Brown have to address it. IMHO.

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by hondakillerzx:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
You guys can stick your head in the sand all you want. However, when week after week, writer after writer, and sportscaster after sportscasters make flattering statements about his play, at some point you have to abandon "the earth is square" philosophy.

Just admit you cannot fairly analyze his play, admit you have a bias against him, and move on. For myself, I'm just joining the rest of the civilized world in my assessment.

By the way, I'm sure MB has zero access to those in the organization who feel that Heitmann is a pretty damn good player....MD said with dripping sarcasm.

Cheers.

Listen, I'm not the one who called Heitmann a p***y.

Beerows did.

And, by your admittedly blind adherence to anything anyone writes about Heitmann (except us independents on the webzone), you did too.

Let's see, who is likely be less biased in their assessment of a player,

(a) those who consider what they've seen of his play and base their assessment on that, or

(b) those who apparently start off with some odd manlove for the guy, those who ignore his actual play over several years, those who rely on anything they can find that might be even a little flattering about the guy (while ignoring any criticism), and, those who angrily chastise anyone who might question, even in the slightest, Heitmann's play by making huge exaggerations about what they are actually saying?

Answer: a. (I'll give you the teacher's version of the test, with the answer included.)

So, "week after week," huh. Who wrote anything flattering about Heitmann's play last week? The week before? And the week before? The week before? Answer: No one. This is just more gross exaggeration and hyperbole. Aside from the most recent few lines from MB yesterday, where he called Heitmann a p***y (not exactly flattery), you're relying on stuff that's at least two years old.

MB might have access to the coaching staff and the other players, but you don't know if he's specifically talked to any of them about Heitmann and his play. You're just assuming that they'd say good stuff. Blindly making a huge leap of faith, and ignoring reality.

And you think we have our heads in the sand?

MB's recent few lines, quoted by you above, indicate that Heitmann is not assertive and lacks in aggression. "He's so unassuming." That's exactly what we've been saying--that he needs to step up, play with more of an attitude, be more aggressive, especially on important, short yardage downs.

If you'd pull your own head out of wherever it may be buried, actually pay attention to what we've been saying, and stop with the hysterical overstatements, maybe you'd recognize that we're not condemning Heitmann, we're simply pointing out that he may no longer be the best player on a very poor OL.

Cause the OL's not gonna be as bad as it was, hopefully, due to the infusion of new talent and new coaching. Capice? What part of that is "the earth is square" unreasonable? Answer: None of it.

You are a pretty bright guy, but this response was one of the stupidest responses I have ever heard. I hope you can get your emotions in check and backtrack.

You end your response with "we're not condemning Heitmann", but you start your response implying that he is a "p*ssy". How do you rectify these two comments. But, I digress......

Let's revisit MB's chat to see how your bias has blinded you so far that the English language is becoming incomprehensible to you. Here is the question and answer, once again:

Q:
Is there any chance David Baas could challenge Eric Heitmann for his job as the starting Center? Given Baas' record at Michigan and recognition he received as a Center there.

Friday May 28, 2010 12:42 Six-Ace-Deuce
12:43 MattB_49: Heitmann is one of the most underrated centers in the league. He's so unassuming. My joke is that if he starts a locker-room fistfight and the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk, he'll go to his first Pro Bowl. if the 49ers reach the playoffs, in fact, I definitely can see Heitmann going to Hawaii

How in God's green earth did you translate "unassuming" to being a "p*ssy"? You did read..... "the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk", which obviously does not question his toughness, but exposure on a national level. He is saying that Heitmann goes about his job quietly, and therefore....wait for the bell...is "one of the most underrated centers in the league". And, that if the Niners go to the playoff, he will get.....exposure. Any other interpretation is moronic, especially one that tries to imply that he is soft.

Please defend how you somehow came to the conclusion that MB was questioning his toughness, or pull back and admit that your comment was stupid. I'll give you a mulligan, and we can move on.

Boy, Maddog, you're usually not as obtuse as this post makes you seem.

Look at EVERYTHING MB says. He mentions that Heitmann is more than just "unassuming," he says he's "SO" unassuming--meaning even more than usually unassuming or quiet. He's saying that Heitmann is quieter than the usual quiet guy, less assertive than a regular wallflower, nonaggressive even more than a normally passive guy. (In other words, he's a wuss.)

Come on. Your reading comprehension is better than that. You can see that MB has "damned Heitmann with faint praise."

He says that "IF he starts a locker room fight, and it gets picked up on ESPN, etc., THEN he'll go to the pro bowl." In other words, if the most passive, least aggressive, most unassuming guy in the locker room ever starts a fight, and it's picked up by the media, then and only then he might go to the pro bowl.

That does not sound like MB is willing to wager heavily on Heitmann going to the pro bowl anytime soon, or starting a fistfight either, for that matter.

MB is saying that, although he likes Heitmann, he finds Heitmann to be extremely passive, very nonaggressive. He's essentially called Heitmann a p***y. Frankly, that's NOT a good thing in a professional football player, no matter how you try to spin it.

I didn't call Heitmann a p***y. I said that MB had politely called him that. (And he did.) Try not to put words that I didn't write into my posts and you'll have less trouble understanding them.

BTW, I hope all is well with you. You said that my post was "one of the stupidest you've ever heard." I sincerely hope that doesn't mean your vision is suffering in any way, that someone had to read my post aloud to you.

And you give me way too much credit. I've read, and written, many much stupider posts.

i dunno man, when i read that barrows quote i took it as meaning that heitman is so low key that a fist fight would get him noticed for his strong play and get him into the probowl. like hes an unknown and a noise maker like that fist fight would get him noticed. thats how i perceived it anyway.

Then you're reading far more into it that is there.

I could be wrong. I mean, I only have a MA in English from UCLA, a BA in English from Cal (Go Bears!), taught High School English for a number of years, and spend my time now writing briefs and arguments. So maybe I'm misreading it. But I don't think so.

And you're missing the point. MB's articles are interesting, but he's hardly an expert on OL play. I don't know that I've ever read an article by him that focuses, solely, on Heitmann or Heitmann's play. Are we to assume, therefore, that he doesn't think Heitmann is important enough, good enough, to merit such an article?

And why can't we depend on our own eyes? I can think of a number of plays in the past three years where Heitmann got pushed back into the backfield on an important, short yardage play. And how many fourth an one's have the Niners succeeded at in the past several years--when they try to run it or sneak it up the middle. None.

I don't give a fig about whether MB or MM think Heitmann's a swell guy or not. I'm sure he is. But there's a problem there, whether anyone wants to acknowledge it or not. It could be just an attitude problem, or a lack of attitude--but whatever it is, Solari and Brown have to address it. IMHO.

Ditto.

But now, I know why you got on me about my writing.

In any case I know it's only one play, but when he let Rocky Bernard go right by him and Smith was injured, it summed up Heitmann's performance.

Of course when the guys you call protection assignments out to, all look lost at the snap, I have a hard time believing that you're the guy that the announcers make Heitmann out to be. As you said OM9er he could be a great guy but there is a problem @ Center. Has been for a long time. So bad that it made arguably average Linemen look like they had no clue how to protect the QB.

Yes I'm speaking specifically about Harris. Oh yes the guy had his issues but nobody can say for sure why he wasn't as strong a Pass blocker as he was a Run Blocker. I surmise that a good part of it was confusion over assignment.

And Jennings as much as he had glass ankles was ready to punch Nolan in the mouth that one game. If Larry Allen didn't stop him I'm sure he would have. And it probably stemmed from bad blocking assignments leading to missed blocks which would have gotten Nolan on the guy that was missing the blocks(in this case pretty much everyone) one of whom was JJ who probably was correct for having a fit about being called out for something that wasn't his fault.

I like EH, but the dude has to slide back over to Guard. He's NOT a good Center and he never was. He was a STOP GAP and people need to keep that in mind. He did okay in that regard. Nobody can expect more from him. I don't because I don't believe he possesses that Killer gene that a guy like Bob St. Clair or Derrick Deese or Harris Barton or even Larry Allen had. I can list off all kinds of names in regard to Nasty. EH is not it and you can't coach Nasty to a player. It will NEVER happen. Either they have it or they get sick and tired of being beaten that they don't care what happens, cause they'll come back at you twice as hard as you came at them. I know that latter guy. That latter guy was me when I played. If you knocked me down my Irish took over. IMHO Heitmann doesn't have the Irish. That's why I feel he should move over to RG where that's not mandatory. He can also help his replacement with the call between series if need be.

One thing I've missed is guys on our sidelines going through play scans in between series. I hope Sing gets them back involved with that basic tool. Our Dynasty teams all used printouts to study between series and they all used to talk to each other. Our team needs to get back to that.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by hondakillerzx:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
You guys can stick your head in the sand all you want. However, when week after week, writer after writer, and sportscaster after sportscasters make flattering statements about his play, at some point you have to abandon "the earth is square" philosophy.

Just admit you cannot fairly analyze his play, admit you have a bias against him, and move on. For myself, I'm just joining the rest of the civilized world in my assessment.

By the way, I'm sure MB has zero access to those in the organization who feel that Heitmann is a pretty damn good player....MD said with dripping sarcasm.

Cheers.

Listen, I'm not the one who called Heitmann a p***y.

Beerows did.

And, by your admittedly blind adherence to anything anyone writes about Heitmann (except us independents on the webzone), you did too.

Let's see, who is likely be less biased in their assessment of a player,

(a) those who consider what they've seen of his play and base their assessment on that, or

(b) those who apparently start off with some odd manlove for the guy, those who ignore his actual play over several years, those who rely on anything they can find that might be even a little flattering about the guy (while ignoring any criticism), and, those who angrily chastise anyone who might question, even in the slightest, Heitmann's play by making huge exaggerations about what they are actually saying?

Answer: a. (I'll give you the teacher's version of the test, with the answer included.)

So, "week after week," huh. Who wrote anything flattering about Heitmann's play last week? The week before? And the week before? The week before? Answer: No one. This is just more gross exaggeration and hyperbole. Aside from the most recent few lines from MB yesterday, where he called Heitmann a p***y (not exactly flattery), you're relying on stuff that's at least two years old.

MB might have access to the coaching staff and the other players, but you don't know if he's specifically talked to any of them about Heitmann and his play. You're just assuming that they'd say good stuff. Blindly making a huge leap of faith, and ignoring reality.

And you think we have our heads in the sand?

MB's recent few lines, quoted by you above, indicate that Heitmann is not assertive and lacks in aggression. "He's so unassuming." That's exactly what we've been saying--that he needs to step up, play with more of an attitude, be more aggressive, especially on important, short yardage downs.

If you'd pull your own head out of wherever it may be buried, actually pay attention to what we've been saying, and stop with the hysterical overstatements, maybe you'd recognize that we're not condemning Heitmann, we're simply pointing out that he may no longer be the best player on a very poor OL.

Cause the OL's not gonna be as bad as it was, hopefully, due to the infusion of new talent and new coaching. Capice? What part of that is "the earth is square" unreasonable? Answer: None of it.

You are a pretty bright guy, but this response was one of the stupidest responses I have ever heard. I hope you can get your emotions in check and backtrack.

You end your response with "we're not condemning Heitmann", but you start your response implying that he is a "p*ssy". How do you rectify these two comments. But, I digress......

Let's revisit MB's chat to see how your bias has blinded you so far that the English language is becoming incomprehensible to you. Here is the question and answer, once again:

Q:
Is there any chance David Baas could challenge Eric Heitmann for his job as the starting Center? Given Baas' record at Michigan and recognition he received as a Center there.

Friday May 28, 2010 12:42 Six-Ace-Deuce
12:43 MattB_49: Heitmann is one of the most underrated centers in the league. He's so unassuming. My joke is that if he starts a locker-room fistfight and the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk, he'll go to his first Pro Bowl. if the 49ers reach the playoffs, in fact, I definitely can see Heitmann going to Hawaii

How in God's green earth did you translate "unassuming" to being a "p*ssy"? You did read..... "the news gets picked up by ESPN and Pro Football Talk", which obviously does not question his toughness, but exposure on a national level. He is saying that Heitmann goes about his job quietly, and therefore....wait for the bell...is "one of the most underrated centers in the league". And, that if the Niners go to the playoff, he will get.....exposure. Any other interpretation is moronic, especially one that tries to imply that he is soft.

Please defend how you somehow came to the conclusion that MB was questioning his toughness, or pull back and admit that your comment was stupid. I'll give you a mulligan, and we can move on.

Boy, Maddog, you're usually not as obtuse as this post makes you seem.

Look at EVERYTHING MB says. He mentions that Heitmann is more than just "unassuming," he says he's "SO" unassuming--meaning even more than usually unassuming or quiet. He's saying that Heitmann is quieter than the usual quiet guy, less assertive than a regular wallflower, nonaggressive even more than a normally passive guy. (In other words, he's a wuss.)

Come on. Your reading comprehension is better than that. You can see that MB has "damned Heitmann with faint praise."

He says that "IF he starts a locker room fight, and it gets picked up on ESPN, etc., THEN he'll go to the pro bowl." In other words, if the most passive, least aggressive, most unassuming guy in the locker room ever starts a fight, and it's picked up by the media, then and only then he might go to the pro bowl.

That does not sound like MB is willing to wager heavily on Heitmann going to the pro bowl anytime soon, or starting a fistfight either, for that matter.

MB is saying that, although he likes Heitmann, he finds Heitmann to be extremely passive, very nonaggressive. He's essentially called Heitmann a p***y. Frankly, that's NOT a good thing in a professional football player, no matter how you try to spin it.

I didn't call Heitmann a p***y. I said that MB had politely called him that. (And he did.) Try not to put words that I didn't write into my posts and you'll have less trouble understanding them.

BTW, I hope all is well with you. You said that my post was "one of the stupidest you've ever heard." I sincerely hope that doesn't mean your vision is suffering in any way, that someone had to read my post aloud to you.

And you give me way too much credit. I've read, and written, many much stupider posts.

i dunno man, when i read that barrows quote i took it as meaning that heitman is so low key that a fist fight would get him noticed for his strong play and get him into the probowl. like hes an unknown and a noise maker like that fist fight would get him noticed. thats how i perceived it anyway.

The reason you perceive it that way is because you are actually attempting to be rational in your analysis. Some of these guys have thrown all rationale out the window because they hate Heitmann so much...and as I have stated all along, their bias against him makes them immune to rational thought, even in the simplest form.

Hence, the "p*ssy" interpretation, which is the oddest (I mean, I can barely stop from shaking my head), strangest, funkiest interpretation of any sentence in modern English history.

The bottom line is that all the beat writers, ESPN's Mike Sando, the castigated, vile broadcasters who announce the Niners games, the Niners' coaches, and the Niners' players who select Heitmann team captain every year since 2006, are all fabulously deranged, confused. The only guys who truly understand Eric Heitmann are the handful of critics on this board. And, for that, I find it odd, stumping, and disturbing.

Gotcha confused, again, do we? Well, let me be of assistance.

"Unassuming: not assuming; not arrogant or presuming; MODEST, RETIRING." (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.)(Emphasis in orginal.)

So when MB writes of Heitmann: "He's so unassuming," he's saying Heitmann's
"so MODEST and RETIRING." "So not arrogant nor presumptive." Unaggressive, passive, meek, mild. (A wuss.)

These might be compliments in some contexts. But do you think calling an NFL lineman "modest and retiring" is a good thing? And he didn't just say "unassuming" he said "so [unusually] unassuming." VERY modest and retiring.

So much so that MB thinks that IF Heitmann were ever to start a fistfight in the lockerroom, it would be such a surprise that it might become a national story. A huge surprise, in other words, for a mild mannered, modest and retiring kinda guy (p***y) to be in a fistfight, much less start one.

No one who's posted on this thread has expressed anything akin to hatred for Heitmann. (What a surprise, a hugely overstated, distorted exaggeration from Maddog.)

A case could be made that you're the one least interested in Heitmann, since you've never actually defended his play, but only attacked your own overstated lies about what the rest of us are saying.

FYI, rational thought is not some kind of disease that one can be "immunized" against. Worst analogy, ever.

Please try to pay better attention. I can't keep carrying you on this stuff, even though you're so unassuming and all.