Baas=Heitmann=Snyder=Rags...and then there's Wallace

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
First off, I have made this statement many times in summing up the incredibly poor play of our OL...and never been challenged on it? Why? Is it true, or is that just confabulation? Let's look:

In ONE word, what is the difference between college football and the pros? It is...
"bigger-faster-meaner-quicker-smarter". Okay, let's look at the last decade at 49ersville. Any OL or parts thereof that stood out? Yup, and one yr only, LA(nearing end of career) and JJ Glass(managing to stay on the field most of yr) were a dependable 3rd and 3, must get, 1st down, and more often than not, they did. Worked during most of season, (Frank went for 1700), but would have not worked in playoffs, where that play would have been doubled, tripled or whatever, but it wouldn't have worked. Aside from that exception, our OL has been awful for nearly 10 yrs now. Why, what went wrong?

Of the 5 guys currently on roster, were any of them feared, or even keyed on by anybody? Except for a few games against Lams or AZ, (or couple other perennial losers) did our OL ever come out of a season and someone say, "Man, those guys just dominated?" NO, it never happened. So why?

Talent first:

Bigger---well, our guys weren't huge, but they were pretty much big enough. Yes, they did get shellacked by guys who were 30-35 lbs heavier, but overall, we weren't small, we were probabaly middle of the pack, but we were noticeably ineffective. In effect, we had 4 guys starting who played like 2nd stringers.

Faster---i don't recall any of our OL in last 10 yrs mentioned as being faster than any other OL. In fact, we weren't. If anything, we were slow.

Meaner---again, i don't ever recall that appellation being given to anyone on our OL in last 10 yrs, nor did they deserve it. Frequently, our OL just flat out got "handled".

Quicker---this we definitely were not. Yeah, maybe we had an OL or two who could lumber thru the 40 in 4.65 or thereabouts. But quicker? No way. We got outquicked by Ds so many times that it was embarrassing, and that was basically for the last decade. Last yr was no exception.

Smarter---by definition, any rook who comes into the league gets schooled. Okay, we all understand that. But to continue on that course, game after game, yr after yr? Well, there is something wrong, bad wrong, with that.

So, what happened? Here's a look at the culprits:

Ownership: reluctant at best, green at the worst, and incredible knack for doing the wrong thing, ususally in GM, Coaching, management hires. Hands down, worst ownership in league early on, but a bit better now. Long way to go tho.

HC: Between the Er-wreckson/donashole duo continuing thru "noln EMPIRE" we were league's worst, almost 7 consecutive yrs. And i don't mean bad, i mean worst in league. BigMike? Well, he's got this yr to get up off the mat. Another non winning season and he's gone, esp with 2 first round OLs.

GM: Er-wreckson/ mcCLown? How about worst ever? That's an opinion, but if not worst, real close to it, say #30 or 31 from top every yr. Worse, none of those jokers had any idea how to build a team from scratch. Well, here's a quote from Vince Lombardi. "Lines first. Build your lined first". With the #1 pick in the draft we take a QB...with nobody to protect him, and that continued thru alex's(and shaun's ) first 5 yrs. Finally with Clown gone, Baalke drafts two OLs...in first half of rd 1.

OC: No need to explain this one. New OC every yr for what, 7 yrs. JimmyRae, no household name, is first OC to make it into 2nd yr. That is a prescription for disaster...and it was(a disaster). Some simple things were continuously overlooked, easy things. If your OL can't block, then you snap the ball and sling it in the same motion. Our OCs had QB taking 3 step, 5 step and gasp, even 7 step drops. I mean, how much more stupid can a coach be? Invariably this gets your QBs beaten up and later operated on...which as we all know happened.

OL coach: Foerster? What can i add to the volumes of bad written about this guy? He was horrid, and the only thing worse than him being OL coach was that bigMike reportedly wanted him to stay on. For player development alone, this guy rated at bottom of league, consistently. He oversaw a losing OL based on speed, quickness, strength, smarts, and content. Content? That is playing to strengths of what we had...which wasn't much.

QB coach: Well, until our current one, they stunk. I have high hopes for MJ, who for a change has excellent credentials.

So, does Baas=heitmann=snyder= Rags ? I think based on performance of all, one would have a good argument for yes. How many were taken in the first rd? Umm...make that none. Did we get our moneys' worth? NO. Did we get what we should expect of an OL taken in 2nd to 4th rd? Yup. You want a starter, wait for a good OL class, and then take 'em in the first. Taking two in the 1st? Not done since 1970, and that bodes well for baalke. Basically my point re: the above OLs is that whereas none of them is bad, neither is anyone of them outstanding. They are all capable, decent backups. But a starter? I don't see one there.

And that brings up a last point. How on earth could we possibly have drafted 4, 5, OLs, and none of them, yrs later still not be true starters? Most of responsibility falls on drafting philosophy, of being able to get a starting OG in lower rounds, which is failed thinking. Except in unusual cases, that is flat false. Sure there are some sprinkled around the league, but they are exceptions, not the rule. Then, once we had these 5 guys, did they get coached up? Heck, no, and in Rachal's case, he actually got coached down. Way to go, Foerster. Hopefully solari and bigRay can turn this ugly eyesore around, and get Rachal back to his pancake blocs, which he was famous for at USC.

Forecast: I can't see anything but good coming from Foerster, noln, and Clown being gone. This yr we see if baalke has an eye for starting talent and if our OL coaching staff can teach basic fundamentals of OL, plus other things such as quickness, smartness, maybe more strength...used properly. Maybe jimmyrae will help the OL by calling plays they are actually capable of completing, as opposed to last yr. If not, he's gone along with bigMike by yrs end.(imo).

It is no secret i have made a case of drafting OLs in first rd for over two yrs now. Well, we did it...finally...and now we see if we have the other elements in place: coaching technique, coaching philosophy, and talent evaluation. My guess is that amongst baas, heitmann, snyder, rags, wallace, we have one guy who is a legitimate starter in the pros...but has just not showed it yet. It is possible all are backups, and that we drafted all 5 poorly, but i sure as hell hope not. The addition of AD and Iupati is a franchise changer. Now we have to get a starting Center out of one of the 5 guys mentioned above, plus rayBrown/ solari need to get rachal back on track.

We do that and this team is bound for glory. Failure to do this will make this team "bound up"... as in constipated...or if you wish, static, going nowhere.

Apologies for length of this, but as noted, it is a multifaceted, complicated, yet absolutely critical problem that has to be resolved...this yr.

So what is the point or question here?

Miami, how about "baas=heitmann=snyder=rags/ wallace" isn't good enough. To compete, to actually have a shot at even sniffing the playoffs again, we have to change the equation above. It is critical for the OL to succeed, and it is unconscionable that it has been allowed go on so long, so bad. OL play matches our success on the field...exactly. To be more precise, if our OL isn't vastly improved, maybe dominating, this team goes nowhere and we are back in market again in Jan looking for new HC, OC, and GM. Nobody wants that to happen, as it would just retard the 49ers chance for success another 5 yrs.

Wow... That was a long walk for a short drink.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
GM: Er-wreckson/ mcCLown? How about worst ever? That's an opinion, but if not worst, real close to it, say #30 or 31 from top every yr. Worse, none of those jokers had any idea how to build a team from scratch. Well, here's a quote from Vince Lombardi. "Lines first. Build your lined first". With the #1 pick in the draft we take a QB...with nobody to protect him, and that continued thru alex's(and shaun's ) first 5 yrs. Finally with Clown gone, Baalke drafts two OLs...in first half of rd 1.

1- Nolan was GM of the 2005 class

2- You may have missed the part where they signed Jonas Jennings, then targeted Logan Makins and settled for David Baas at pick #33. So to say we took a QB with no one to protect him is ignorant because they did attempt to address it.

3- Baalke may have taken 2 OL with the first 2 picks, but Scot helped immensely with shaping the draft board and there is no way of knowing if he possibly had the same intentions (to draft 2 OL in the first).

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
So, does Baas=heitmann=snyder= Rags ? I think based on performance of all, one would have a good argument for yes. How many were taken in the first rd? Umm...make that none. Did we get our moneys' worth? NO. Did we get what we should expect of an OL taken in 2nd to 4th rd? Yup. You want a starter, wait for a good OL class, and then take 'em in the first. Taking two in the 1st? Not done since 1970, and that bodes well for baalke. Basically my point re: the above OLs is that whereas none of them is bad, neither is anyone of them outstanding. They are all capable, decent backups. But a starter? I don't see one there.

FWIW New Orleans and Indianapolis both made the SuperBowl without a 1st round OL in the lineup. And there were Pro Bowlers amongst those guys.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
And that brings up a last point. How on earth could we possibly have drafted 4, 5, OLs, and none of them, yrs later still not be true starters? Most of responsibility falls on drafting philosophy, of being able to get a starting OG in lower rounds, which is failed thinking. Except in unusual cases, that is flat false. Sure there are some sprinkled around the league, but they are exceptions, not the rule. Then, once we had these 5 guys, did they get coached up? Heck, no, and in Rachal's case, he actually got coached down. Way to go, Foerster. Hopefully solari and bigRay can turn this ugly eyesore around, and get Rachal back to his pancake blocs, which he was famous for at USC.

Might want to do some research and look at the numerous OL around the league who have come from the middle or late rounds and eve as UDFA's who have been successful. The responsibility falls on coaching not on philosophy and history shows that.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
My guess is that amongst baas, heitmann, snyder, rags, wallace, we have one guy who is a legitimate starter in the pros...but has just not showed it yet. It is possible all are backups, and that we drafted all 5 poorly, but i sure as hell hope not. The addition of AD and Iupati is a franchise changer. Now we have to get a starting Center out of one of the 5 guys mentioned above, plus rayBrown/ solari need to get rachal back on track.

Eric Heitmann is and will be the starter. What's important is to find a viable backup, for emergency purposes. It is a common webzone misconception that he isn't a solid player. As evidenced here he is not as poor as many would like to think.

McKittrick spoiled us. After him, there was no one with enough balls or talent on the coaching side to put emphasis or direction of how we want our O-line to be for the next ten years. You may not like Singletary's philosophy but he has put emphasis on the O-line. It's evident on the last draft. That's more than the last two previous coaches that was here combined.

KRS, INdy and NO did make it with no 1st rd picks to SB...but they also had 2 future HOF QBs, 2 great front offices, and terrific coaching...none of which we were blessed with.

FAs? All i remember is that when Hutchinson became available in SEA, we didn't even take a sniff at him(wasn't worth the money, quoth Clown). Same went for Dielman in SD, and Faneca several yrs back. All resulted in great running games for teams that received those guys or retained them(SD). Our noteworthy FAs, LA and JJ were a)old, and b) damaged goods.

Heitmann as a starter? Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I have seen Heitmann's stats presented repeatedly. Stats are one thing. Performance is another. Rocky Bernard going over Heitmann's back, or Heitmann getting shoved back into the QB are unfortunate events blazed on our memories forever. Show all the stats you want, and I , as well as others are not impressed. I am willing to be impressed, however. But it is gonna have to take a totally different Heitmann than we have seen previously. Could our OL coaching have had anything to do with the incredibly poor play of our OL? Please , God, make it be so. I would dearly love to see one, hopefully even 2 of the above 5 emerge as true starters under an OL coaching staff that has 49er DNA in it.

I restate: we took a QB #1 pick in the draft, and DID NOT protect him...ever. This yr will be different. We still have to have one of the above 5 step up and not only snap the ball but also run block and especially, protect alex.

Gnnhan tells it like it is. We were spoiled by McKIttrick, but we also had a guy who could teach as well as he did...coach walsh. We've had no OL coach worth a hill of beans since then, and no HC who knew and could coach OL except the GoAT, walsh. That said, I am extremely hopeful that solari/bigRay can right this ship...and Baalke has greatly added to their chance of success.

Anyone can b***h about previous mistakes by the prior regimes, but the fact is that Singletary and Baalke are doing everything to address the offensive lines.

#1: Hire Mike Solari and let Foerster leave for the Skins.
- This is the most important and biggest offseason acquisition for the team. Solari is a top 5 OL coach in this league, and he understands Raye's playbook.

#2: Hire a mentor/ast. coach in Ray Brown.
- Brown is going to be HUGE help as a role model and technician for guys like Rachal, Iupati, and Davis to improve their games. One reason why Singletary is an effective coach is because he has actual football experience (HOFer anyone?) with a Super Bowl ring. Brown could be a HOF, but he has many years of actual experience and high level of productivity.

#3: Address the RT position with Davis.
- McCloughan/Nolan never really addressed the offensive line - instead taking a reactive approach by trying a few different options already on the team or scraps in free agency. Finally the new administration hit the nail on the head on addressing the position with Davis.

#4: Address the LG positon with Iupati.
- Baas seems to be a very good backup, but not an everyday starter. If he can improve his skills at center, the Iupati pick not only upgrades the starting LG position, but improves the depth by allocating Baas to the bench.

The fact that Wragge and Snyder are the storylines of "on the bubble" players to make the roster is significant improvement. A year before, Wragge was the starting guard and Snyder was a starting tackle lol.

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
McKittrick spoiled us. After him, there was no one with enough balls or talent on the coaching side to put emphasis or direction of how we want our O-line to be for the next ten years. You may not like Singletary's philosophy but he has put emphasis on the O-line. It's evident on the last draft. That's more than the last two previous coaches that was here combined.

If I recall correctly it was McNolan that traded up in 2007 to get Joe Staley in the first round. So far,IMO, Staley is a starter on any NFL team. They also made some decent pickups in FA that were good short term decisions but again, and I agree with you, not good for the long term. But, when the OC is changed EVERY YEAR starting back with Ted Tollner in 2004, it's not just a problem for a young QB--it also happens to be a problem establishing chemistry and continuity on an offensive line. It wasn't Nolan's fault that McCarthy and Turner left for head coaching gigs when they did--do you honestly think Nolan was happy with putting Hostler in charge? And we all know what went wrong with the Martz experiment.

It has been a comedy (no tragedy) of errors on the entire organization but with a renewed interest in the OL, sound coaching by Solari who brings McKittrick's style and philosophy back to the OL, a good draft and a little luck, this OL like Mooch recently said after the draft, could become one of the very best in the NFL. Only time will tell.

I hope Solari & Brown can get this o-line going this season!

Originally posted by wrongway9erfan:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
McKittrick spoiled us. After him, there was no one with enough balls or talent on the coaching side to put emphasis or direction of how we want our O-line to be for the next ten years. You may not like Singletary's philosophy but he has put emphasis on the O-line. It's evident on the last draft. That's more than the last two previous coaches that was here combined.

If I recall correctly it was McNolan that traded up in 2007 to get Joe Staley in the first round. So far,IMO, Staley is a starter on any NFL team. They also made some decent pickups in FA that were good short term decisions but again, and I agree with you, not good for the long term. But, when the OC is changed EVERY YEAR starting back with Ted Tollner in 2004, it's not just a problem for a young QB--it also happens to be a problem establishing chemistry and continuity on an offensive line. It wasn't Nolan's fault that McCarthy and Turner left for head coaching gigs when they did--do you honestly think Nolan was happy with putting Hostler in charge? And we all know what went wrong with the Martz experiment.

It has been a comedy (no tragedy) of errors on the entire organization but with a renewed interest in the OL, sound coaching by Solari who brings McKittrick's style and philosophy back to the OL, a good draft and a little luck, this OL like Mooch recently said after the draft, could become one of the very best in the NFL. Only time will tell.

To be fair McNolan did tried to address the O-line somewhat through Jennings and Staley the five years that they were here. But I didn't feel it from them that they had thought the O-line were priority #1 or #2 even if there were other position to be filled. After drafting two 1st rounder on lineman, there's no question where Singletary thought the priority should be.

If we don't have a coach like McKittrick that can turn mid rounders and FA castoff into cohesive Oline units, then the HC better have a clear vision of what the offense and Oline to do and draft high to get that needed talents. Singletary gives us that.

Originally posted by wrongway9erfan:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
McKittrick spoiled us. After him, there was no one with enough balls or talent on the coaching side to put emphasis or direction of how we want our O-line to be for the next ten years. You may not like Singletary's philosophy but he has put emphasis on the O-line. It's evident on the last draft. That's more than the last two previous coaches that was here combined.

If I recall correctly it was McNolan that traded up in 2007 to get Joe Staley in the first round. So far,IMO, Staley is a starter on any NFL team. They also made some decent pickups in FA that were good short term decisions but again, and I agree with you, not good for the long term. But, when the OC is changed EVERY YEAR starting back with Ted Tollner in 2004, it's not just a problem for a young QB--it also happens to be a problem establishing chemistry and continuity on an offensive line. It wasn't Nolan's fault that McCarthy and Turner left for head coaching gigs when they did--do you honestly think Nolan was happy with putting Hostler in charge? And we all know what went wrong with the Martz experiment.

It has been a comedy (no tragedy) of errors on the entire organization but with a renewed interest in the OL, sound coaching by Solari who brings McKittrick's style and philosophy back to the OL, a good draft and a little luck, this OL like Mooch recently said after the draft, could become one of the very best in the NFL. Only time will tell.

Good post.

Originally posted by wrongway9erfan:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
McKittrick spoiled us. After him, there was no one with enough balls or talent on the coaching side to put emphasis or direction of how we want our O-line to be for the next ten years. You may not like Singletary's philosophy but he has put emphasis on the O-line. It's evident on the last draft. That's more than the last two previous coaches that was here combined.

If I recall correctly it was McNolan that traded up in 2007 to get Joe Staley in the first round. So far,IMO, Staley is a starter on any NFL team. They also made some decent pickups in FA that were good short term decisions but again, and I agree with you, not good for the long term. But, when the OC is changed EVERY YEAR starting back with Ted Tollner in 2004, it's not just a problem for a young QB--it also happens to be a problem establishing chemistry and continuity on an offensive line. It wasn't Nolan's fault that McCarthy and Turner left for head coaching gigs when they did--do you honestly think Nolan was happy with putting Hostler in charge? And we all know what went wrong with the Martz experiment.

It has been a comedy (no tragedy) of errors on the entire organization but with a renewed interest in the OL, sound coaching by Solari who brings McKittrick's style and philosophy back to the OL, a good draft and a little luck, this OL like Mooch recently said after the draft, could become one of the very best in the NFL. Only time will tell.

Side note: didn't it start with Knapp for the OC cycle? Knapp left with Mora to Atlanta, and then Tollner came into the picture?

03: Knapp (WCO)
04: Tollner (WCO)
05: McCarthy (WCO)
06: Turner (Digit System)
07: Hostler (w/ Tollner) (Digit/WCO)
08: Martz (Spread System)
09-Present: Raye (Digit System)

It suck that they have been unable to develop any OL into a great starter. It look like Sig is well aware of the problem and doing something about it.
i don't think Wragge or Snyder should make the team but one of them still mite make this years team. I really like Bass as a back up at all 3 Interior OL position and if he need to start at RG they should be fine. If they get better Gard play Heitman should be fine at center. do they need a young center to take over for Heitman in a yr or two sure i hope they can draft one next yr. Not sure if i would want them to use more first round pick on the OL, but it sure is nice that they are trying to fix the problem. if these two new OL work out then they have 3 of the 5 OL locked down for many years to come.

Originally posted by GEEK:

Originally posted by wrongway9erfan:

Originally posted by qnnhan7:
McKittrick spoiled us. After him, there was no one with enough balls or talent on the coaching side to put emphasis or direction of how we want our O-line to be for the next ten years. You may not like Singletary's philosophy but he has put emphasis on the O-line. It's evident on the last draft. That's more than the last two previous coaches that was here combined.

If I recall correctly it was McNolan that traded up in 2007 to get Joe Staley in the first round. So far,IMO, Staley is a starter on any NFL team. They also made some decent pickups in FA that were good short term decisions but again, and I agree with you, not good for the long term. But, when the OC is changed EVERY YEAR starting back with Ted Tollner in 2004, it's not just a problem for a young QB--it also happens to be a problem establishing chemistry and continuity on an offensive line. It wasn't Nolan's fault that McCarthy and Turner left for head coaching gigs when they did--do you honestly think Nolan was happy with putting Hostler in charge? And we all know what went wrong with the Martz experiment.

It has been a comedy (no tragedy) of errors on the entire organization but with a renewed interest in the OL, sound coaching by Solari who brings McKittrick's style and philosophy back to the OL, a good draft and a little luck, this OL like Mooch recently said after the draft, could become one of the very best in the NFL. Only time will tell.

Side note: didn't it start with Knapp for the OC cycle? Knapp left with Mora to Atlanta, and then Tollner came into the picture?

03: Knapp (WCO)
04: Tollner (WCO)
05: McCarthy (WCO)
06: Turner (Digit System)
07: Hostler (w/ Tollner) (Digit/WCO)
08: Martz (Spread System)
09-Present: Raye (Digit System)

Martz runs the digit system too but with more of an emphasis on multiple receiver sets and less play action.