So how do we fix the O-line?

I think the Staley kid is way too good to give up on. Especially, when healthy. Everybody else is either slow, dumb or weak. Or, all of the 3.

Wow. I had never heard of this guy and I guess I know why. How did he ever get hired?

One thing is for sure, putting in rookies isn't going to help the OL all that much. It's about time we go at another top level FA offensive lineman.

McCloughan needs to man up and get a good guard. We know he will pay for a Tackle but he needs to understand our best player on offense, Gore, must have good play from the Guard position, which means Guards are valuable to us.

Originally posted by jta854:
Cut Alex Smith.

wow , you really thought this post out din't you.

Originally posted by xx49erfanxx:

Originally posted by jta854:
Cut Alex Smith.

wow , you really thought this post out din't you.

He should have posted: eff you Jonas!!!

Originally posted by WheresWaldo:
Kick these bums to the curb:

Baas
Snyder
Sims

Sims has actually been somewhat of a pleasant surprise at Left Tackle, I'd certainly try and get him to sign for as little as possible. As for Baas, there have been some ntable moments of improvement these last 2 weeks, again, for depth, we'd be well advised to keep them both for depth, but look t replace in this draft.

Tackle performances 2009 to date - Barry Sims, right in the middle, ranking higher than some big names!

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Not addressing the coaching and drafting new coaches is like building a new house on a mud foundation.

A big part of the problem is Mike Forester:

I also found this important tidbit:

Finally, it's worth noting that the Baltimore Ravens changed offensive line coaches. Gone is Chris Foerster, who served as the team's offensive line coach since 2005. The Ravens line was miserable in '05, better in '06, and not very good in '07. In 2004, his last year in Miami, his line surrendered the second most sacks in the league (52) and tied for last in yards per rush (3.5). Foerster was hired by San Francisco this year, and I suppose it should surprise no one that the 49ers are 25th in rushing yards, and 3rd worst in sacks allowed (45).

In 2008, first year head coach John Harbaugh brought in John Matsko, who was the offensive line coach during the glory years of the St. Louis Rams earlier this decade. In the late 80s, Matsko coached the offensive line of the USC Trojans to 3 straight Rose Bowls. He also coached perennial Pro Bowlers Willie Roaf, Will Shields, Brian Waters, and Adam Timmerman during his stints in Kansas City and New Orleans.

By no means is the Baltimore Ravens offensive line dominant, but they're trending in the right direction with Matsko developing their mostly very young line. It's hard to quantify the impact of coaching at the NFL level at offensive line, but I think it is definitely a factor. Matsko better have a better idea of how to block James Harrison and LaMarr Woodley,

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2008/12/11/689453/a-closer-look-at-the-balti
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Now granted Martz had issues with QB protection - so I can't blame all of those sacks on Forrester while with the 49ers, but you have to ask yourself here - given his tenure with the Ravens, their OL became MUCH better last season once Forrester LEFT.[/indent]

I'm always interested in what other fans say about coaches from other teams (just like we think the Broncos made a huge mistake with hiring Mike Nolan as DC). This is what another fan says about Forrester:

And could someone please tell me how Chris Foerster gets a hall pass? Here’s a coach who left Miami in 2004 after his O-Line was tied for second worst in the league in sacks allowed (52). They also were tied for dead last in average yards per rush (3.5 yards).

In 2005 with virtually the same offensive line personnel and without Foerster the Dolphins were fourth best in the league at protecting the quarterback (26 sacks) and tied for seventh best in average per carry (4.3 yards).

And Foerster became the Ravens offensive line coach and assistant head coach why?

http://ravens24x7.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_archive.html

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I've posted this before but it would be sad to invest a couple of 1sts and and have Forester "develop" them.

This is what I have been saying for weeks.

Here is what I posted last night in this thread, post #61:

Today's game showed the contrast between a well-coached offensive line, and one that is NOT well-coached.

For weeks now we have been seeing 3 or more Smith passes batted down by defensive linemen. The opposing DL keys the drops of the OL and reads the set of the QB. If they read a quick pass they read the QBs eyes and jump up and block the pass. Smith's release point is high enough that his passes should not be blocked like the are. Also, by having these big guys constantly in his face clogging the passing lanes, his opportunties for quick releases are much more limited.

Today we say Philly demonstrate how to stop that; CUT BLOCK THE D-LINEMAN!!! Philly took advantage of the aggressive charge of the 49ers and just cut them down like they had a chain saw cut down trees.

McNabb had clear passing lanes all day because the 49er DL were getting cut down leaving no hands in McNabb's face. Now the next thing that happens, is if the DL is constantly getting cut, they slow down their charge, and that also leaves the QB with more time. It has been working that way for years.

The 49ers have NEVER used a cut technique all season long that I have seen. Smith, and before him, Hill, have been getting passes blocked. It is no surprise then that the OL has struggled so badly in pass protection. They are not being taught fundamental techniques, not only in pass protection but run blocking. I just don't believe all of these guys are junk. Good coaches develop players. Good players don't come from college fully prepped for the NFL.

Though the above example is just about cut blocking, there are others I could list as well. No matter who they draft, unless they get an OL coach who knows how to teach the game, they will continue to struggle.

EDIT: On two different occasions during the broadcast today, Johnson and then Siragusa, mentioned how effective Philly was in cut blocking. Stating the obvious.
_____________________

We all know the game is won in the trenches. Until those guys have a truly quality OL coach, we can rant all we want about Baas this, or Rachal that, or Snyder whatever, but the 49ers have had garbage for OL coaches ever since Nolan arrived. Remember George Warhop? He was so horrible they replaced him with Foerster!

dj43, greatly respect your football knowledge. I also like to compare Niner scheme and tecdhnique versus other clubs. Philly's OL was exceptional yesterday. McNabb never got touched and your chain saw analogy is a good one.

I never saw much in Warhop. He was just a grumpy guy, who seemed to do little in developing the young talent given to him. Larry Alen seemed to do more coaching by example, than Warhop ever did in practice. Remember that Heitmann got his basic pro training during the Dennis Erickson regime, not under Nolan-Warhop. I've also been suspicious of Foerster, since his track record elsewhere has not been notable.

Below are my OL questions, for anyone out there who might have some insight. Jimmy Raye has 30 years of NFL offensive coaching experience. This man was the OC for Eric Dickerson, when he rushed for 2000 yards. He has crafted offenses that allowed mediocre QB's to throw for 4000+ yards on winning teams.

WOULDN'T IT BE LOGICAL THAT RAYE HAS WORKED WITH ONE OR MORE STELLAR OL COACHES DURING HIS 30-YEAR NFL TENURE?

WOULDN'T IT BE LOGICAL THAT SINGLETARY WOULD WANT TO DRAW ON RAYE'S EXPERIENCE IN THIS REGARD FOR AN OL COACHING RECOMMENDATION?

WOULDN'T IT BE LOGICAL THAT SUCH AN EXPERIENCED OC AS RAYE, WOULD KNOW THAT THE RIGHT OL COACH WOULD BE CRITICAL TO THE SUCCESS OF HIS OFFENSE?

Perhaps this off-season will provide a discernable answer to these questions. If Foesrter is "re-upped", then perhaps we can conclude that the OL disappointments are more talent-related.

Originally posted by 4evrfan:

Originally posted by bret:
Change the philosophy!

1. Scotty put an emphasis on size. He's said it over an over: "I want big players".
2. Sing put an emphasis on beating your opponent "mano-a-mano".

The linemen who seem to have the biggest problems are Snyder, Rachal, and Baas. They are also our biggest, strongest, SLOWEST linemen.

Speed kills! Get quick linemen.

Guile beats strength! Bill Walsh won because he had a better plan than his opponents! Pass when your opponent expects you to run. Run when they expect you to pass, etc.

So:
1. Draft a first round tackle -- the quickest you can. (We still have a first rounder left for a speed rusher or a safety.)
2. Draft a second round guard -- the quickest you can.
3. Add a free agent guard -- Logan Mankins would be nice!
4. Replace Foerster if he can't coach according to this philosophy.

This is dead on, but play-calling needs to change as well, ie less predictable.

Originally posted by jimbagg:
dj43, greatly respect your football knowledge. I also like to compare Niner scheme and tecdhnique versus other clubs. Philly's OL was exceptional yesterday. McNabb never got touched and your chain saw analogy is a good one.

I never saw much in Warhop. He was just a grumpy guy, who seemed to do little in developing the young talent given to him. Larry Alen seemed to do more coaching by example, than Warhop ever did in practice. Remember that Heitmann got his basic pro training during the Dennis Erickson regime, not under Nolan-Warhop. I've also been suspicious of Foerster, since his track record elsewhere has not been notable.

Below are my OL questions, for anyone out there who might have some insight. Jimmy Raye has 30 years of NFL offensive coaching experience. This man was the OC for Eric Dickerson, when he rushed for 2000 yards. He has crafted offenses that allowed mediocre QB's to throw for 4000+ yards on winning teams.

WOULDN'T IT BE LOGICAL THAT RAYE HAS WORKED WITH ONE OR MORE STELLAR OL COACHES DURING HIS 30-YEAR NFL TENURE?

WOULDN'T IT BE LOGICAL THAT SINGLETARY WOULD WANT TO DRAW ON RAYE'S EXPERIENCE IN THIS REGARD FOR AN OL COACHING RECOMMENDATION?

WOULDN'T IT BE LOGICAL THAT SUCH AN EXPERIENCED OC AS RAYE, WOULD KNOW THAT THE RIGHT OL COACH WOULD BE CRITICAL TO THE SUCCESS OF HIS OFFENSE?

Perhaps this off-season will provide a discernable answer to these questions. If Foesrter is "re-upped", then perhaps we can conclude that the OL disappointments are more talent-related.

Thanks.

All good questions, jb. The Dickerson years also included an OL with huge talent. Jackie Slater is in the HOF. Several others, don't recall all the names now, had long and distinguished careers in the league. Checken/egg.

One question I have is; how much does Singletary actually know about offensive football?

I would think he would understand about effective blocking schemes because he constantly had to deal with them from the defensive standpoint. Maybe both realize the problem is Foerster but also know the fix is not available right now so they live with it. I don't know.

As to Raye, I don't think very highly of him. When I analyze a play-caller, I look for a sequence of plays where one play will set up another, either by blocking patterns or passing patterns, or maybe just in personnel groupings. Try as I will, I can't see any of that in Raye's play calling. Each play is a "stand alone" play, in my view.

I am such a huge Walsh fan where each one of his famous First Fifteen scriped plays was designed to achieve a measured result for later in the game. Typically there would be simple running plays or passes, other times motion or "influence" plays to just read how the defense would line up then, or on the next play. If you watched those first 15 plays closely, you would see many of them mirror things he would use later in the game. Sometimes you would never see the same look again, either because Walsh didn't get the result he wanted or because it was used only to get the other DC to start wasting time thinking about something Walsh had no intention of using again.

So that, Walsh, is my standard for how a good OC/play caller works. I saw Andy Reid do some of that yesterday but, try as I might, I didn't see Jimmy Raye using it.

Originally posted by dj43:
You can get different player but until you have a scheme that helps them play to their strengths, it won't make a great deal of difference.

If anyone cares to go spend some time with their DVR and chart the blocking patterns and play selection, you will find that what the 49ers are running right now is so juvenile a Pop Warner team could figure it out. You can "coach them up" all you want but there is just too much man-on-man reliance and when any one of the five gets beat, the play is dead. ...

.

Let's revisit this great post. Points that make sense.

The vintage blocking schemes may indeed be a remnant of the original smash-mouth mentality. It makes sense that they aren't able to let go of their dreams of dominating defenses physically. Maybe the OL is indeed decent, at least average in terms of actual talent, but is given an impossible task.

Talent might apply to not getting a push, but it doesn't account for all the totally unblocked defenders that seem to pour in every time. They are untouched at all and that is a different matter. That makes me think that there is something wrong with the OL scheme. One of the commentators pointed that out a couple of times in the Philly game. He seemed puzzled as to why the OL was missing assignments.

The post by dj43 points to simplistic blocking assignments and, really, what else makes more sense?

However, the OL coach may simply be following orders. The OC is heavily involved in setting up the blocking. The OL coach doesn't just employ random blocking schemes.

I'll bet firing the OLC has no advantage, unless Raye changes it up as well. And he will be back

Originally posted by jays9ers:
Does anyone have any clue besides drafting an entire O-line next year? I just don't understand how an O-line doesn't improve at all during the course of a season... Is it the coaching or do we just lack the talent? I just don't get it? Anyone have a clue?

New Oline Coach, Draft a first round starter and spend a little $$ in F/A for another starter. Make people earn their jobs and make people accountable...pubically if you need to.

2005 draft

New England is on the clock
49ers next.

One more pick and Logan Mankins is ours.

New Englands picks Mankins.

We settle on -------------- David Bass

Originally posted by bret:
Change the philosophy!

1. Scotty put an emphasis on size. He's said it over an over: "I want big players".
2. Sing put an emphasis on beating your opponent "mano-a-mano".

The linemen who seem to have the biggest problems are Snyder, Rachal, and Baas. They are also our biggest, strongest, SLOWEST linemen.

Speed kills! Get quick linemen.

Guile beats strength! Bill Walsh won because he had a better plan than his opponents! Pass when your opponent expects you to run. Run when they expect you to pass, etc.

So:
1. Draft a first round tackle -- the quickest you can. (We still have a first rounder left for a speed rusher or a safety.)
2. Draft a second round guard -- the quickest you can.
3. Add a free agent guard -- Logan Mankins would be nice!
4. Replace Foerster if he can't coach according to this philosophy.

Originally posted by bret:
Change the philosophy!

1. Scotty put an emphasis on size. He's said it over an over: "I want big players".
2. Sing put an emphasis on beating your opponent "mano-a-mano".

The linemen who seem to have the biggest problems are Snyder, Rachal, and Baas. They are also our biggest, strongest, SLOWEST linemen.

Speed kills! Get quick linemen.

Guile beats strength! Bill Walsh won because he had a better plan than his opponents! Pass when your opponent expects you to run. Run when they expect you to pass, etc.

So:
1. Draft a first round tackle -- the quickest you can. (We still have a first rounder left for a speed rusher or a safety.)
2. Draft a second round guard -- the quickest you can.
3. Add a free agent guard -- Logan Mankins would be nice!
4. Replace Foerster if he can't coach according to this philosophy.

The speed kills philosophy will also work for the secondary as well.....nice post.

At this point, only Staley and Heitmann seem to be fixtures...I don't see them re-signing Baas. He's a mauler, but not much else. We need OG's and OT's who're versatile...that can run block and pass protect. The OG's need to be able to pull to lead sweeps, screens, etc. That's been a missing part of the offense. Not sure about Rachal, either. He's still young, so could still develop, but pass protection's his weakness. We all know Snyder's not the answer at RT...so they need to draft one, plus re-sign Pashos and Sims. The latter deserves some recognition for the job he did filling in for Staley. Given that Wallace has yet to sniff the field, the notion he'd eventually replace Heitmann seems shaky, at best. That so, it's not too soon to draft a C, even if they spend some time on the PS.