Mac Jones-QB-49ers

Why wouldn't Kyle want a Mac Jones that can run 4.4 forty. That is what Fields is.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Do you? I keep hearing that as a justification for a more mobile QB but the numbers don't back that up at all. Those who we perceive to have the most success off schedule also have the most negative plays too. And the total number of off schedule plays is so minimal at the NFL level @ < 10% (probably closer to 5% actually).

Ok?? Many NFL games come down to a play or two. I want a guy who can make those one or two plays

Well guys like Tom make them in the pocket, guys like Midget Wilson makes them outside. As long as the play is made, I'm fine. Kyles going to have to make that hard choice though. Does he want a matt Ryan or a Steve Young? Both can win you games. I personally think both Mac and Fields can be coached up by Kyle in the intangibles side, and I think Mac has the higher intangibles ceiling vs Fields, but fields can make that astounding athletic move that can make a difference in a game. We'll see on the 29th what Kyle thinks.

The moment Fields puts on a uniform, he'll be closer to Russell Wilson than Mac may ever be to Brady. And that's not to say that Fields is anywhere close to Wilson but the athletic playmaking ability raises Fields NFL floor above Mac's from the get-go. It's just such a massive leap for any young QB to be projected to Tom f**king Brady. You may as well buy a lotto ticket and win then find the next Brady. That said, Mac could certainly make a name for himself in his own right, I just have serious questions about what happens to him when the Aaron Donalds of the NFL consistently collapse the pocket and put him on his back. That's a question for all young QBs, but at least with Fields, we've seen him get hit repeatedly and respond.

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by socal1632:

Originally posted by RonMexico:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I dont get how you are excited for Jones. What do you envision with Jones vs the past 4 years?

A wide open playbook for Kyle including outside the hash throws, intermediate success and definitely deep success. Like in college, he's going to maximize the talent around him with Aiyuk, Hurd, Deebo, Juice, Kittle and Mostert/Wilson in the passing game. He's going to hit them with proper timing (not leave them out to get killed) for optimal YAC. And if his college career is any indication, he's going to be fully prepared and get better and better the more he plays to the point Kyle will finally be able to fully trust his QB and let it rip.

I want what your smoking!

Wake n bake 420 Tuesday and I'm still not on board

Pass some of that this way. A wide open playbook with a statue who's 35-40 yard passes are ducks. Our online will have to be like Brady oline good. Period. He doesn't have the arm to pop off throws under duress, in the NFL

He thinks Jones is a massive upgrade over JG. I don't see it. Pre Injury JG easily better and he was a 2nd round pick. Post knee JG still had better arm talent imo.

He absolutely has the ability to be far better than JG. That's interesting you've already put a comp and cap on him.

Wait, it's justifiable for you to say he can be far better than JG, but I cannot say he will not be? How does that work?

LOL. Fair.

I mean if KYLE picks him he obviously believes he's of the mold that can be shaped to being better than Garoppolo over time.

Don't forget. RG3 took WAS to the playoffs that year.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by socal1632:

Originally posted by RonMexico:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I dont get how you are excited for Jones. What do you envision with Jones vs the past 4 years?

A wide open playbook for Kyle including outside the hash throws, intermediate success and definitely deep success. Like in college, he's going to maximize the talent around him with Aiyuk, Hurd, Deebo, Juice, Kittle and Mostert/Wilson in the passing game. He's going to hit them with proper timing (not leave them out to get killed) for optimal YAC. And if his college career is any indication, he's going to be fully prepared and get better and better the more he plays to the point Kyle will finally be able to fully trust his QB and let it rip.

I want what your smoking!

Wake n bake 420 Tuesday and I'm still not on board

Pass some of that this way. A wide open playbook with a statue who's 35-40 yard passes are ducks. Our online will have to be like Brady oline good. Period. He doesn't have the arm to pop off throws under duress, in the NFL

He thinks Jones is a massive upgrade over JG. I don't see it. Pre Injury JG easily better and he was a 2nd round pick. Post knee JG still had better arm talent imo.

He absolutely has the ability to be far better than JG. That's interesting you've already put a comp and cap on him.

Wait, it's justifiable for you to say he can be far better than JG, but I cannot say he will not be? How does that work?

LOL. Fair.

I mean if KYLE picks him he obviously believes he's of the mold that can be shaped to being better than Garoppolo over time.

Haha, you trust Kyle too much and the all caps means you're a sucker for him! I mean we KNOW Lynch said, you we gotta check out Pat Mahomes, and he said NO because he had a hardon for Cousins. That kind of tunnel vision is how you never win, and why I am a cynic, but believe he would be arrogant and dumb enough to draft Jones. I hope I am wrong and we hear Fields.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
You said yourself its hard to judge intangibles - so ill take you at your word and ignore your claims on Macs and Fields intangibles being equal. I think Macs intangibles are greater than Fields intangibles - the way that fields athleticism out classes Macs. Thats my take on it after watching the film on both of them. Thats why I think they are equal. I have no doubt that Kyle can squeeze everything and then some from either one, the way he did with Mullens. Both will be excellent QBs in the NFL.

I don't see a real big difference in the rams and Seattle trading number ones for free agents- specially when the bust rate for first rounders in general are upwards of 40%. The only difference is ShanaLynch is gambling on coaching being correct vs Rams and Seattle gambling the GM being correct.

Its a big gamble, no doubt about it. If they are wrong, its going to hurt the 49ers for a while. I think thats the other reason to spend so much draft capital, and it was to buy time (one month) to do their due diligence. They have generally drafted well in the later rounds, so I can see them making some of that up in UDFA and lower rounds if #3 was a bad pick. For example-- Kittle did help make the 2017 draft more of a success despite the whole first round being a bust.

I think Kyle is so confident (bordering on arrogance) that his schemes are so good, he doesn't really need a atheltic QB that can save his scheme if his scheme breaks down. That's how I'm reading it. We shall see on the 29th.

What intangibles are better? You have players running different offenses asked to do different things with different personnel and in different scenarios this past 2020 season.

They traded for PROVEN talent. they didn't trade for what if guys...that's not even close to the same.

If they're wrong they're gonna be fired plain and simple. You can't have 3 out of 4 yrs with 10+ loses then piss away your future picks on a guy who's ceiling is Kirk Cousins and think you can't be canned if he doesn't turn into Brady (because that's what he will have to be to justify it). At least with Fields there was an understand that he has been an elite talent since HC. He's played multiple yrs and all he's done is win. There's film of coming back to win, there's film of getting hurt and playing through it. There's film of amazing moments and what can be....

If Kyle is that confident he might just be an OC after it's all said an done and I think he's great. No one should be that arrogant to think he can out scheme every HC in the NFL.

There's a lot that goes into a big decision like this. Intangibles are a big part of it, but everybody sees it differently because its hard to quantify intangibles the way you can see a 40 yard time or a 65 yard throw. So I won't bother arguing intangibles because it will always be difficult to get on the same plane of understanding.

Trading multiple 1st round picks for proven players vs trading multiple 1st round picks for a top #3 pick is the same in my view because those first round picks have that bust potential built in. Conversely the *proven* players you trade for have a very high Cap space that come with them that because they are *proven*.

I get your focus on Fields athleticism - its astounding. But keep in mind you have a coach that's only 41 and has accomplished (in his young age) as much as Walsh and Bellicheck have at that age. Don't forget they were both (John and Kyle) extended recently and Jed will have to eat a ton of $$$ to get rid of them and hire a new coach. It won't be easy to fire either one as easu you think - with the kind of contract they originally signed for.

I agree Kyle is borderline arrogant. But he has proven he can out scheme most HCs. The only ones he has trouble with are coaches 20+ years his senior with decades of playoff experience. I think Mac or Fields, they will both be great under Kyle. I'm confident in Kyle that he can do that for either player.

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
Haha, you trust Kyle too much and the all caps means you're a sucker for him! I mean we KNOW Lynch said, you we gotta check out Pat Mahomes, and he said NO because he had a hardon for Cousins. That kind of tunnel vision is how you never win, and why I am a cynic, but believe he would be arrogant and dumb enough to draft Jones. I hope I am wrong and we hear Fields.

You nailed it. Kyle seems rigid and stubborn. Why not grab Fields or Lance and open up your playbook? I'm very afraid of the same ol, same ol approach! You've already coached Cousins and Ryan. Move on and challenge yourself to reinvent the playbook to match a better tool.

Don't get me wrong. I like Mac but not at 3. This would be a panic move.

If Kyle drafts Jones, then he is not our long-term coach. That kind of arrogance will get either Kyle or Lynch fired in a year.

Checks and Balances!

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I'll just add that the 3rd (i believe ) is a compensatory pick for the Saleh hire, and in my mind isn't part of the regular 7 draft picks. So in my view its two low first round picks if (big if) it turns out we have a younger more healthy Jimmy 2.0 that's a bit more mobile and has a bit better arm/mind/accuracy. (And I don't think Jimmy is a bad QB at all) in my eyes. Jones = Fields, I'd be ecstatic with either one.

It's still a pick regardless of how it came about...it's a rookie contract and right around a top 100 pick that you're giving away.

How people keep saying it's only 2 1sts is just dumb too. IF we were just drafting someone at 12, you're using the 12th overall pick in the 2021 draft to get that person. That IS a pick. So now we're using the 3rd overall pick to get a QB plus 3 more future picks.

We have no idea how healthy Jones will be...he couldn't even play in the Senior bowl because of an ankle. He's got 17 starts behind the best OL (by far) in the country. Kid never dealt with a ton of stress back there. He never had to play from behind much. It was all ahead of the chains and just walking out there with more talent top to bottom across the roster and coaching staff.

In no world is Jones equal to Fields. simply not true.

I will say I'm happy you're cool with whomever, I will not be. not at QB.

You said yourself its hard to judge intangibles - so ill take you at your word and ignore your claims on Macs and Fields intangibles being equal. I think Macs intangibles are greater than Fields intangibles - the way that fields athleticism out classes Macs. Thats my take on it after watching the film on both of them. Thats why I think they are equal. I have no doubt that Kyle can squeeze everything and then some from either one, the way he did with Mullens. Both will be excellent QBs in the NFL.

I don't see a real big difference in the rams and Seattle trading number ones for free agents- specially when the bust rate for first rounders in general are upwards of 40%. The only difference is ShanaLynch is gambling on coaching being correct vs Rams and Seattle gambling the GM being correct.

Its a big gamble, no doubt about it. If they are wrong, its going to hurt the 49ers for a while. I think thats the other reason to spend so much draft capital, and it was to buy time (one month) to do their due diligence. They have generally drafted well in the later rounds, so I can see them making some of that up in UDFA and lower rounds if #3 was a bad pick. For example-- Kittle did help make the 2017 draft more of a success despite the whole first round being a bust.

I think Kyle is so confident (bordering on arrogance) that his schemes are so good, he doesn't really need a atheltic QB that can save his scheme if his scheme breaks down. That's how I'm reading it. We shall see on the 29th.

Can't use intangibles to draft a player. You can use personality and white-board know-how, but you are setting up to fail if anyone thinks one person has more intangibles than another.

Disagree, you can see the inconsistencies with regards to Fields pocket performance vs Macs. Mac, overall on film, is just more consistent in his ability to throw. He plays faster in the pocket vs Fields.

Intangibles are intangibles- they are hard to put into words to quantify them, and so these are just how I feel about how fields and Mac play in the pocket.

I understand that Mac played with NFL caliber recievers and Fields didn't and so tried to just isolate the QB performance. I think both have great upside in the pocket intangibles areas, and I'm counting on Kyle to coach both up to Tom Brady standards. I know both have that potential. Right now I just think Mac has a bit of a lead in that department.

Not exactly. Jones had the most time to throw and was pressured the least. His situation was ideal. A college QB coming from ideal situation in doesn't go into an NFL ideal situation,...ever. The odds of him regressing are much higher.

I've seen Feilds take off too soon and leave some plays on the gridiron. The NFL will be a faster place and his athleticism won't have as much impact as it had in college. You have to factor that into your assessment too. There are linebackers and Dlinemen in the NFL just as fast and much stronger than he is.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I'll just add that the 3rd (i believe ) is a compensatory pick for the Saleh hire, and in my mind isn't part of the regular 7 draft picks. So in my view its two low first round picks if (big if) it turns out we have a younger more healthy Jimmy 2.0 that's a bit more mobile and has a bit better arm/mind/accuracy. (And I don't think Jimmy is a bad QB at all) in my eyes. Jones = Fields, I'd be ecstatic with either one.

It's still a pick regardless of how it came about...it's a rookie contract and right around a top 100 pick that you're giving away.

How people keep saying it's only 2 1sts is just dumb too. IF we were just drafting someone at 12, you're using the 12th overall pick in the 2021 draft to get that person. That IS a pick. So now we're using the 3rd overall pick to get a QB plus 3 more future picks.

We have no idea how healthy Jones will be...he couldn't even play in the Senior bowl because of an ankle. He's got 17 starts behind the best OL (by far) in the country. Kid never dealt with a ton of stress back there. He never had to play from behind much. It was all ahead of the chains and just walking out there with more talent top to bottom across the roster and coaching staff.

In no world is Jones equal to Fields. simply not true.

I will say I'm happy you're cool with whomever, I will not be. not at QB.

You said yourself its hard to judge intangibles - so ill take you at your word and ignore your claims on Macs and Fields intangibles being equal. I think Macs intangibles are greater than Fields intangibles - the way that fields athleticism out classes Macs. Thats my take on it after watching the film on both of them. Thats why I think they are equal. I have no doubt that Kyle can squeeze everything and then some from either one, the way he did with Mullens. Both will be excellent QBs in the NFL.

I don't see a real big difference in the rams and Seattle trading number ones for free agents- specially when the bust rate for first rounders in general are upwards of 40%. The only difference is ShanaLynch is gambling on coaching being correct vs Rams and Seattle gambling the GM being correct.

Its a big gamble, no doubt about it. If they are wrong, its going to hurt the 49ers for a while. I think thats the other reason to spend so much draft capital, and it was to buy time (one month) to do their due diligence. They have generally drafted well in the later rounds, so I can see them making some of that up in UDFA and lower rounds if #3 was a bad pick. For example-- Kittle did help make the 2017 draft more of a success despite the whole first round being a bust.

I think Kyle is so confident (bordering on arrogance) that his schemes are so good, he doesn't really need a atheltic QB that can save his scheme if his scheme breaks down. That's how I'm reading it. We shall see on the 29th.

Can't use intangibles to draft a player. You can use personality and white-board know-how, but you are setting up to fail if anyone thinks one person has more intangibles than another.

Disagree, you can see the inconsistencies with regards to Fields pocket performance vs Macs. Mac, overall on film, is just more consistent in his ability to throw. He plays faster in the pocket vs Fields.

Intangibles are intangibles- they are hard to put into words to quantify them, and so these are just how I feel about how fields and Mac play in the pocket.

I understand that Mac played with NFL caliber recievers and Fields didn't and so tried to just isolate the QB performance. I think both have great upside in the pocket intangibles areas, and I'm counting on Kyle to coach both up to Tom Brady standards. I know both have that potential. Right now I just think Mac has a bit of a lead in that department.

Not exactly. Jones had the most time to throw and was pressured the least. His situation was ideal. A college QB coming from ideal situation in doesn't go into an NFL ideal situation,...ever. The odds of him regressing are much higher.

I've seen Feilds take off too soon and leave some plays on the gridiron. The NFL will be a faster place and his athleticism won't have as much impact as it had in college. You have to factor that into your assessment too. There are linebackers and Dlinemen in the NFL just as fast and much stronger than he is.

Yes but that all depends on the look that he got and the situation. For example, there are times when Russell immediately ditches a play that shows man coverage and takes off for a 15 yard easy scamper.

Here's something good about Mac Jones:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Just a question. How is accuracy rate even determined? Isnt it all subjective?

What is really starting to annoy me is that fans are now attempting to turn football into baseball with their analytics and stats. Thats why I hate PFF. This is football, dont use damn analytics and stats and other crap to determine whether a player is going to succeed or not.

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Just a question. How is accuracy rate even determined? Isnt it all subjective?

What is really starting to annoy me is that fans are now attempting to turn football into baseball with their analytics and stats. Thats why I hate PFF. This is football, dont use damn analytics and stats and other crap to determine whether a player is going to succeed or not.

It's less subjective than trying to determine a QB's ability to process and apply the playbook. Especially a QB that is in an ideal situation. Mac Jones has a higher probability to be a Matt Lienert or Mark Sanchez than anything else.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Just a question. How is accuracy rate even determined? Isnt it all subjective?

What is really starting to annoy me is that fans are now attempting to turn football into baseball with their analytics and stats. Thats why I hate PFF. This is football, dont use damn analytics and stats and other crap to determine whether a player is going to succeed or not.

It's less subjective than trying to determine a QB's ability to process and apply the playbook. Especially a QB that is in an ideal situation. Mac Jones has a higher probability to be a Matt Lienert or Mark Sanchez than anything else.

Yes I can se that, but I like to use the eye test. I just dont see the benefit of stats like accuracy rate or TTT.

Originally posted by Chance:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Do you? I keep hearing that as a justification for a more mobile QB but the numbers don't back that up at all. Those who we perceive to have the most success off schedule also have the most negative plays too. And the total number of off schedule plays is so minimal at the NFL level @ < 10% (probably closer to 5% actually).

Ok?? Many NFL games come down to a play or two. I want a guy who can make those one or two plays

Well guys like Tom make them in the pocket, guys like Midget Wilson makes them outside. As long as the play is made, I'm fine. Kyles going to have to make that hard choice though. Does he want a matt Ryan or a Steve Young? Both can win you games. I personally think both Mac and Fields can be coached up by Kyle in the intangibles side, and I think Mac has the higher intangibles ceiling vs Fields, but fields can make that astounding athletic move that can make a difference in a game. We'll see on the 29th what Kyle thinks.

The moment Fields puts on a uniform, he'll be closer to Russell Wilson than Mac may ever be to Brady. And that's not to say that Fields is anywhere close to Wilson but the athletic playmaking ability raises Fields NFL floor above Mac's from the get-go. It's just such a massive leap for any young QB to be projected to Tom f**king Brady. You may as well buy a lotto ticket and win then find the next Brady. That said, Mac could certainly make a name for himself in his own right, I just have serious questions about what happens to him when the Aaron Donalds of the NFL consistently collapse the pocket and put him on his back. That's a question for all young QBs, but at least with Fields, we've seen him get hit repeatedly and respond.

That's your take on Fields and Mac, i just disagree and leave it at that. The person that is going to make that decision is making it on the 29th. Hes the guy that is on the hot seat and he better be right.

Who knows how these young kids will respond at the NFL level. Even *they* themselves don't know. There's no sure thing in the Draft. Even NY85 got his Mahomes assessment wrong. I think NY85 got so burned by that, that now he's gone the opposit extreme.

I think because of the coach we have, he'll pick the right player more times than the wrong player -- and he'll make either of these players great. They BOTH have first round athleticism and first round intangibles - if Kyle can make an undrafted QB look good playing in the NFL-- imagine what he can do with first round talent.