Mac Jones-QB-49ers

Originally posted by NCommand:
Do you? I keep hearing that as a justification for a more mobile QB but the numbers don't back that up at all. Those who we perceive to have the most success off schedule also have the most negative plays too. And the total number of off schedule plays is so minimal at the NFL level @ < 10% (probably closer to 5% actually).

What do you call off schedule? I'm talking about avoiding pressure and making a play. It doesn't have to be Russell Wilson all game...go look at Herbert and Allen. Go look at Mahomes. They all play primarily from the pocket. YET they can move with their feet for multiple 1st downs or yes extend when a protection or play breaks down. Let's not pretend like we didn't see that s**t happen in SF plenty. IF you don't think SF is gonna invest billions in the OL then a guy who can avoid pressure and actually has lateral movement ability IS important. Someone who's actually built in their lower half to break a tackle is important.

All it does is add more to Kyle's playbook. Again all of these QBs can play in the pocket. It's not one dude can and the other can't BUT one guy has issues with extending plays and making off script throws.

I actually believe you're "off schedule" plays are closer to 30% (according to spots info solutions)...one thing Jones wasn't good at is throwing into tight windows ( only 44 of Jones's completions last season were into what is considered "tight" coverage.)

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I dont get how you are excited for Jones. What do you envision with Jones vs the past 4 years?

A wide open playbook for Kyle including outside the hash throws, intermediate success and definitely deep success. Like in college, he's going to maximize the talent around him with Aiyuk, Hurd, Deebo, Juice, Kittle and Mostert/Wilson in the passing game. He's going to hit them with proper timing (not leave them out to get killed) for optimal YAC. And if his college career is any indication, he's going to be fully prepared and get better and better the more he plays to the point Kyle will finally be able to fully trust his QB and let it rip.

I want what your smoking!

Wake n bake 420 Tuesday and I'm still not on board

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I'll just add that the 3rd (i believe ) is a compensatory pick for the Saleh hire, and in my mind isn't part of the regular 7 draft picks. So in my view its two low first round picks if (big if) it turns out we have a younger more healthy Jimmy 2.0 that's a bit more mobile and has a bit better arm/mind/accuracy. (And I don't think Jimmy is a bad QB at all) in my eyes. Jones = Fields, I'd be ecstatic with either one.

It's still a pick regardless of how it came about...it's a rookie contract and right around a top 100 pick that you're giving away.

How people keep saying it's only 2 1sts is just dumb too. IF we were just drafting someone at 12, you're using the 12th overall pick in the 2021 draft to get that person. That IS a pick. So now we're using the 3rd overall pick to get a QB plus 3 more future picks.

We have no idea how healthy Jones will be...he couldn't even play in the Senior bowl because of an ankle. He's got 17 starts behind the best OL (by far) in the country. Kid never dealt with a ton of stress back there. He never had to play from behind much. It was all ahead of the chains and just walking out there with more talent top to bottom across the roster and coaching staff.

In no world is Jones equal to Fields. simply not true.

I will say I'm happy you're cool with whomever, I will not be. not at QB.

You said yourself its hard to judge intangibles - so ill take you at your word and ignore your claims on Macs and Fields intangibles being equal. I think Macs intangibles are greater than Fields intangibles - the way that fields athleticism out classes Macs. Thats my take on it after watching the film on both of them. Thats why I think they are equal. I have no doubt that Kyle can squeeze everything and then some from either one, the way he did with Mullens. Both will be excellent QBs in the NFL.

I don't see a real big difference in the rams and Seattle trading number ones for free agents- specially when the bust rate for first rounders in general are upwards of 40%. The only difference is ShanaLynch is gambling on coaching being correct vs Rams and Seattle gambling the GM being correct.

Its a big gamble, no doubt about it. If they are wrong, its going to hurt the 49ers for a while. I think thats the other reason to spend so much draft capital, and it was to buy time (one month) to do their due diligence. They have generally drafted well in the later rounds, so I can see them making some of that up in UDFA and lower rounds if #3 was a bad pick. For example-- Kittle did help make the 2017 draft more of a success despite the whole first round being a bust.

I think Kyle is so confident (bordering on arrogance) that his schemes are so good, he doesn't really need a atheltic QB that can save his scheme if his scheme breaks down. That's how I'm reading it. We shall see on the 29th.

I'm like Lombardi on this one. "I guarantee that Jones won't be the pick at 3!"

Our folks just ain't that stupid to make that type of colossal move a month prior to the draft for Mac Jones. This move was for Justin Fields

Originally posted by RonMexico:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I dont get how you are excited for Jones. What do you envision with Jones vs the past 4 years?

A wide open playbook for Kyle including outside the hash throws, intermediate success and definitely deep success. Like in college, he's going to maximize the talent around him with Aiyuk, Hurd, Deebo, Juice, Kittle and Mostert/Wilson in the passing game. He's going to hit them with proper timing (not leave them out to get killed) for optimal YAC. And if his college career is any indication, he's going to be fully prepared and get better and better the more he plays to the point Kyle will finally be able to fully trust his QB and let it rip.

I want what your smoking!

Wake n bake 420 Tuesday and I'm still not on board

Pass some of that this way. A wide open playbook with a statue who's 35-40 yard passes are ducks. Our online will have to be like Brady oline good. Period. He doesn't have the arm to pop off throws under duress, in the NFL

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Rathof44:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by BOI49er:
His value is that Shanahan knows he will be able to trust him, as he makes almost no wtf mental plays. That will allow Kyle to run his offense, which he can not do with Jimmy, and it's not more than a low percentage gamble he would be able to with Fields or Lance, and That's a high priced bet.

So he wants a system QB that can't create s**t when s**t will have to be created at some point? You do NOT spent yrs of 1st rd picks for a system QB. You can find that s**t in every single draft. You spend up for elite traits and someone that can be a top 5 player at the position. Not Kirk Cousins. You can win games with guys like that...but you need everything to go smoothly in structure all yr. You think SF is gonna have every player healthy all yr? You think every player is gonna execute every play correctly? You don't think defenses are gonna win reps?

Go spend $10M on Andy Dalton if all you're looking for is someone to run your offense in structure. You spend a 2nd rd pick (like Jimmy) for system guys that don't have high end traits. You're basically giving up yrs of top capital for avg....It would be one of the biggest reaches in NFL draft history. It would be one of the most arrogant picks in draft history...basically Kyle telling the NFL my scheme will beat every team every week no matter what. Which is seemly false especially when you're in the playoffs.

ALSO there is absolutely no reason as to why Fields can not run his offense...none.

C'mon, it's the NFL, nothing ever breaks down or goes away from a plan. My gut feeling says NFL defenses are going to eat him up. All those throwing options, time, and windows are not going to be the same. Gotta be able to create when s**t goes south.

Do you? I keep hearing that as a justification for a more mobile QB but the numbers don't back that up at all. Those who we perceive to have the most success off schedule also have the most negative plays too. And the total number of off schedule plays is so minimal at the NFL level @ < 10% (probably closer to 5% actually).

We aren't trying to worry about losing 3 yards on a play. A healthy 49ers are beyond that type of minutia. We are talking about being in the playoffs or the Super Bowl and getting the QB that stresses out DCs because they are forced to cover every inch of the field and even when they do that, we still make it happen.

There is nothing that proves Mac Jones will be a better executer of an NFL offense than Justin Fields. That is all up in the air. Justin Fields, in the NFL, could be a Mac Jones that runs a 4.4 forty for all we know.

Too many college QBs on the most talented college teams become busts more than they become great. The jump in level of competition IS that great. Jones won't be on an Alabama team that can dominate. He will be on an Alabama team that is playing against itself every single week.

Originally posted by socal1632:

Originally posted by RonMexico:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I dont get how you are excited for Jones. What do you envision with Jones vs the past 4 years?

A wide open playbook for Kyle including outside the hash throws, intermediate success and definitely deep success. Like in college, he's going to maximize the talent around him with Aiyuk, Hurd, Deebo, Juice, Kittle and Mostert/Wilson in the passing game. He's going to hit them with proper timing (not leave them out to get killed) for optimal YAC. And if his college career is any indication, he's going to be fully prepared and get better and better the more he plays to the point Kyle will finally be able to fully trust his QB and let it rip.

I want what your smoking!

Wake n bake 420 Tuesday and I'm still not on board

Pass some of that this way. A wide open playbook with a statue who's 35-40 yard passes are ducks. Our online will have to be like Brady oline good. Period. He doesn't have the arm to pop off throws under duress, in the NFL

He thinks Jones is a massive upgrade over JG. I don't see it. Pre Injury JG easily better and he was a 2nd round pick. Post knee JG still had better arm talent imo.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I dont get how you are excited for Jones. What do you envision with Jones vs the past 4 years?

A wide open playbook for Kyle including outside the hash throws, intermediate success and definitely deep success. Like in college, he's going to maximize the talent around him with Aiyuk, Hurd, Deebo, Juice, Kittle and Mostert/Wilson in the passing game. He's going to hit them with proper timing (not leave them out to get killed) for optimal YAC. And if his college career is any indication, he's going to be fully prepared and getting better and better the more he plays to the point Kyle will finally be able to fully trust his QB and let it rip.

This is easy to do when the talent he is throwing to and protecting him faaaar surpasses the talent defending them. We don't have the best WRs in the league. Top defenders will easily deflect a lot of the types of balls Jones threw in college and top NFL defenders will intercept a lot of the tight window balls Jones threw in college.

It's simple, there's not a throw Jones can make that Jimmy can't make and Jimmy probably has the quicker release. The only consistent flaw I have seen with Jimmy is that he lacks experience. Dude has one of the higher winning percentages in the NFL.

Kyle has literally built his entire offense around RAC monsters to go off and the < 2.55 passing game off huge run success.

That's his formula and it usually has him at the tops of the league in points.

Nearly every QB that comes into the league can "make every throw" but it's more about when those throws are made and knowing where to throw. That's his strength.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Joecool:
If we draft Jones, then I am rooting for Jimmy to own this team and come out with guns blazing slamming the door shut with authority in Jones' face.

Jimmy is going to have a great year, I bet.

He better if he wants to go to the Pats, otherwise he might end up with the Browns or Washington football team.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by Giedi:
I'll just add that the 3rd (i believe ) is a compensatory pick for the Saleh hire, and in my mind isn't part of the regular 7 draft picks. So in my view its two low first round picks if (big if) it turns out we have a younger more healthy Jimmy 2.0 that's a bit more mobile and has a bit better arm/mind/accuracy. (And I don't think Jimmy is a bad QB at all) in my eyes. Jones = Fields, I'd be ecstatic with either one.

It's still a pick regardless of how it came about...it's a rookie contract and right around a top 100 pick that you're giving away.

How people keep saying it's only 2 1sts is just dumb too. IF we were just drafting someone at 12, you're using the 12th overall pick in the 2021 draft to get that person. That IS a pick. So now we're using the 3rd overall pick to get a QB plus 3 more future picks.

We have no idea how healthy Jones will be...he couldn't even play in the Senior bowl because of an ankle. He's got 17 starts behind the best OL (by far) in the country. Kid never dealt with a ton of stress back there. He never had to play from behind much. It was all ahead of the chains and just walking out there with more talent top to bottom across the roster and coaching staff.

In no world is Jones equal to Fields. simply not true.

I will say I'm happy you're cool with whomever, I will not be. not at QB.

You said yourself its hard to judge intangibles - so ill take you at your word and ignore your claims on Macs and Fields intangibles being equal. I think Macs intangibles are greater than Fields intangibles - the way that fields athleticism out classes Macs. Thats my take on it after watching the film on both of them. Thats why I think they are equal. I have no doubt that Kyle can squeeze everything and then some from either one, the way he did with Mullens. Both will be excellent QBs in the NFL.

I don't see a real big difference in the rams and Seattle trading number ones for free agents- specially when the bust rate for first rounders in general are upwards of 40%. The only difference is ShanaLynch is gambling on coaching being correct vs Rams and Seattle gambling the GM being correct.

Its a big gamble, no doubt about it. If they are wrong, its going to hurt the 49ers for a while. I think thats the other reason to spend so much draft capital, and it was to buy time (one month) to do their due diligence. They have generally drafted well in the later rounds, so I can see them making some of that up in UDFA and lower rounds if #3 was a bad pick. For example-- Kittle did help make the 2017 draft more of a success despite the whole first round being a bust.

I think Kyle is so confident (bordering on arrogance) that his schemes are so good, he doesn't really need a atheltic QB that can save his scheme if his scheme breaks down. That's how I'm reading it. We shall see on the 29th.

Can't use intangibles to draft a player. You can use personality and white-board know-how, but you are setting up to fail if anyone thinks one person has more intangibles than another.

Originally posted by frenchmov:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Do you? I keep hearing that as a justification for a more mobile QB but the numbers don't back that up at all. Those who we perceive to have the most success off schedule also have the most negative plays too. And the total number of off schedule plays is so minimal at the NFL level @ < 10% (probably closer to 5% actually).

Ok?? Many NFL games come down to a play or two. I want a guy who can make those one or two plays

So, you want Brady and Mahomes?

We did have a shot at both.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I dont get how you are excited for Jones. What do you envision with Jones vs the past 4 years?

A wide open playbook for Kyle including outside the hash throws, intermediate success and definitely deep success. Like in college, he's going to maximize the talent around him with Aiyuk, Hurd, Deebo, Juice, Kittle and Mostert/Wilson in the passing game. He's going to hit them with proper timing (not leave them out to get killed) for optimal YAC. And if his college career is any indication, he's going to be fully prepared and getting better and better the more he plays to the point Kyle will finally be able to fully trust his QB and let it rip.

This is easy to do when the talent he is throwing to and protecting him faaaar surpasses the talent defending them. We don't have the best WRs in the league. Top defenders will easily deflect a lot of the types of balls Jones threw in college and top NFL defenders will intercept a lot of the tight window balls Jones threw in college.

It's simple, there's not a throw Jones can make that Jimmy can't make and Jimmy probably has the quicker release. The only consistent flaw I have seen with Jimmy is that he lacks experience. Dude has one of the higher winning percentages in the NFL.

Kyle has literally built his entire offense around RAC monsters to go off and the < 2.55 passing game off huge run success.

That's his formula and it usually has him at the tops of the league in points.

Nearly every QB that comes into the league can "make every throw" but it's more about when those throws are made and knowing where to throw. That's his strength.

Or Kyle has built this entire team to be an amoeba type where any player can play any spot. Just like, "Oh, you think you can over pursue on the stretch run. Here's a naked bootleg by my 4.4 QB for an 80 yard TD."

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Cisco0623:
I dont get how you are excited for Jones. What do you envision with Jones vs the past 4 years?

A wide open playbook for Kyle including outside the hash throws, intermediate success and definitely deep success. Like in college, he's going to maximize the talent around him with Aiyuk, Hurd, Deebo, Juice, Kittle and Mostert/Wilson in the passing game. He's going to hit them with proper timing (not leave them out to get killed) for optimal YAC. And if his college career is any indication, he's going to be fully prepared and getting better and better the more he plays to the point Kyle will finally be able to fully trust his QB and let it rip.

This is easy to do when the talent he is throwing to and protecting him faaaar surpasses the talent defending them. We don't have the best WRs in the league. Top defenders will easily deflect a lot of the types of balls Jones threw in college and top NFL defenders will intercept a lot of the tight window balls Jones threw in college.

It's simple, there's not a throw Jones can make that Jimmy can't make and Jimmy probably has the quicker release. The only consistent flaw I have seen with Jimmy is that he lacks experience. Dude has one of the higher winning percentages in the NFL.

I think Mac had one of the higher winning percentages in college.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Do you? I keep hearing that as a justification for a more mobile QB but the numbers don't back that up at all. Those who we perceive to have the most success off schedule also have the most negative plays too. And the total number of off schedule plays is so minimal at the NFL level @ < 10% (probably closer to 5% actually).

What do you call off schedule? I'm talking about avoiding pressure and making a play. It doesn't have to be Russell Wilson all game...go look at Herbert and Allen. Go look at Mahomes. They all play primarily from the pocket. YET they can move with their feet for multiple 1st downs or yes extend when a protection or play breaks down. Let's not pretend like we didn't see that s**t happen in SF plenty. IF you don't think SF is gonna invest billions in the OL then a guy who can avoid pressure and actually has lateral movement ability IS important. Someone who's actually built in their lower half to break a tackle is important.

All it does is add more to Kyle's playbook. Again all of these QBs can play in the pocket. It's not one dude can and the other can't BUT one guy has issues with extending plays and making off script throws.

I actually believe you're "off schedule" plays are closer to 30% (according to spots info solutions)...one thing Jones wasn't good at is throwing into tight windows ( only 44 of Jones's completions last season were into what is considered "tight" coverage.)

I already posted this but I confirmed with Jeff Deeney and I asked him to go conservative.

This is college, a league that encourages it far more because the unaccounted QB can destroy college defenses esp. if he's more athletic than many of those defenders. That's why Fields had 600 yards running and 900 for Lance.

The guys you love in the NFL are < 300.

We do mark if the QB scrambles outside of the pocket, and then again if he runs past line of scrimmage. It's not a really high number, about 13-14% in NCAA last year.

Originally posted by Giedi:
You said yourself its hard to judge intangibles - so ill take you at your word and ignore your claims on Macs and Fields intangibles being equal. I think Macs intangibles are greater than Fields intangibles - the way that fields athleticism out classes Macs. Thats my take on it after watching the film on both of them. Thats why I think they are equal. I have no doubt that Kyle can squeeze everything and then some from either one, the way he did with Mullens. Both will be excellent QBs in the NFL.

I don't see a real big difference in the rams and Seattle trading number ones for free agents- specially when the bust rate for first rounders in general are upwards of 40%. The only difference is ShanaLynch is gambling on coaching being correct vs Rams and Seattle gambling the GM being correct.

Its a big gamble, no doubt about it. If they are wrong, its going to hurt the 49ers for a while. I think thats the other reason to spend so much draft capital, and it was to buy time (one month) to do their due diligence. They have generally drafted well in the later rounds, so I can see them making some of that up in UDFA and lower rounds if #3 was a bad pick. For example-- Kittle did help make the 2017 draft more of a success despite the whole first round being a bust.

I think Kyle is so confident (bordering on arrogance) that his schemes are so good, he doesn't really need a atheltic QB that can save his scheme if his scheme breaks down. That's how I'm reading it. We shall see on the 29th.

What intangibles are better? You have players running different offenses asked to do different things with different personnel and in different scenarios this past 2020 season.

They traded for PROVEN talent. they didn't trade for what if guys...that's not even close to the same.

If they're wrong they're gonna be fired plain and simple. You can't have 3 out of 4 yrs with 10+ loses then piss away your future picks on a guy who's ceiling is Kirk Cousins and think you can't be canned if he doesn't turn into Brady (because that's what he will have to be to justify it). At least with Fields there was an understand that he has been an elite talent since HC. He's played multiple yrs and all he's done is win. There's film of coming back to win, there's film of getting hurt and playing through it. There's film of amazing moments and what can be....

If Kyle is that confident he might just be an OC after it's all said an done and I think he's great. No one should be that arrogant to think he can out scheme every HC in the NFL.