OFFICIAL: The Shaun Hill Starship

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:


Ok... Lets examine just how much he helped the Niners in that 07 Cards game you love...

1st Possession 10 yards total gain and then punt.
2nd Possession 6 yards total gain TD run by Gore.
3rd Possession 18 yards total gain and then punt.
4th Possession 5 yards total gain and then an Alex Fumble (AZ got a TD off of this)
5th Possession 49 yards total gain and then a 33yd FG.
6th Possession 21 yards total gain and then a 30 yd FG.
7th Possession 17 yards total gain and then punt.
8th Possession 2 yards total gain and then punt.
9th Possession 1 yard total gain and then punt.
10th Possession 1 yard total gain and then punt.
11th Possession 85 yards total gain and then AB run for a TD.

So, out of 11 drives he only had 1 that was over 50 yards but he had 6 possessions that were 10 yards or less... He averaged less then 20 yards per possession!... I don't see this as a major contribution and his QB rate of 59.3 for that game doesn't indicate he made much of a contribution.

Maybe if he completed at least 50% of his passes or if he didn't fumble on our own 36 yard line we would have been better off. And watch the AZ video you posted... The ball placement left his receiver exposed so that when he got hit the ball popped out. We were lucky that D-Drop was there to recover that ball.
So, how exactly did Smith win this game for us again?

Do you want to go over each of his 7 victories like this? Like I said above, he FAILED to score a TD in 4 of the 7 victories. This indicates he did not do much to help the TEAM in those wins. And LOL at you trying to downplay the stats...

You need to stop it with this double standard.

People give Hill all the credit in the world for being able to turn around a bad game against the Rams and bring them back on a final drive with a poorly thrown pass and a hell of a catch by Morgan. But when Smith does it, you blow it off as nothing and give him abosultely no credit even though he made several crucial plays on the final drive.

But lets examine that final drive.

Smith Completes passes for 10, 16, and the big one for 22 yards down the middle to Arnaz Battle. Yeah it was a little off but still in his hands and he should have not fumble, thats more on the reciever than on Smith. He also had a big run for about 25 yards on that drive on a 4th and 1. That final drive was all Smith. He is the reason the team got down to the 1. He is the Main reason they won that game.

Second, you don't even comment on the Seahawks game.

And I don't dismiss the stats. Nor have I made any excuses for the poor numbers. They are what they are. I just say they don't tell the whole story. The only one trying to downplay the stats is you. Your trying to downplay Smith's Victories.

Facts are facts. Smith may not have had great numbers, but the fact is he was the QB on the field during that time so he gets credit for the wins and the loses.

I'm going to keep saying that until you or anyone else can prove that he did not go 7-5 in his last 12 starts before sustaining his injury.

So just answer me one question and spare me all these statistics....

What was Alex Smith's record in his last twelve starts before sustaining an injury to his throwing shoulder?

Why stop at 12? Why not 26 games before the injury? Is it because he went 4-10 in his first 14 games? Why not only go with his last 9 games? Is it because he went 4-5 there? Why not look at all 30 of his starts where he went 11-19? So I'll ask again, whats so special about going back exactly 12 games?

Back to the AZ game now... Smith cost the team 7 points with his fumble, failed to score a single TD, completed less than 50% of his passes, and only put together one good drive in the game. Now you want to say this is the same as one of Hill's worst games (against the rams) where Shaun brought us back from being down 2 scores in the 4th quarter by driving down the field and throwing a TD not once but twice. There is a little difference between the performance of these two QB's.

Now what SeaHaggs game did you want me to comment on, the one where he threw for 162 yards or the one he threw for 163 yards?

As for down playing Smith's victories... I'm not at all satisfied with his performance in 4 of the 7 wins you love to talk about. Those 4 were Team victories; ones which they would have won regardless of who was behind center IMO...

As for the stats (note the bolded above)... First you want to talk facts. Then you don't want to talk stats; but, you're not dismissing the stats. You just don't want me to use them... I don't get it

The reason you look at his last twelve games is because you look at him and try to see if he has progressed from year 1 to year 2, to year 3. And the fact that he was starting to win more games right before he got hurt shows that he was progressing in the most important statistical catagory... victories.

Second, yes I want you to look at the seahawks game where he scored 2 TD's and one rushing.

And finally, on shaun Hill, you blame Smith for giving up 7 points against the Cards because of his fumble. What about the 3 interceptions Hill threw against the rams. Not 1 turnover..but THREE.

Come on, we can play this game all day.

Don't bother man. The truth is that these guys are group hittin tha huka.

Is Smith all that an a bag o Doritos Habanero? Nope.

But neither is Hill.

Personally I would rather Smith play over Hill. Although inaccurate he has a stronger arm and can throw deeper than Hill can. Strong Arm = Quicker Delivery in this case. No he doesn't get the ball out faster but that comes with time and confidence. As far as inaccuracy goes that is coachable.

What does Hill do poorly that is coachable? Throwing ducks? Possibly but he would have to throw a hundred spirals an hour to fix that during camp. Stuck on the short pass? Nope. You cannot coach ANY QB up from that point. It's nearly impossible and I mean that it's easier to coach TOUCH than it is force.

Don't get me wrong I'll take either of them at this point and see where we are at but I know the game well enough to know that our options are severely limited with Hill as our Starter.

But you can't tell any of the Hill Homers this stuff. To a man they pretty much believe Hill is Starting calibur, nevermind that Hill is his record as much as his record is him. He did it ALL as a Backup and when NOBODY had an answer for him. Let's see what his record is as a Starter when teams game plan for him.

Smith had the same advantage going in to '06. Sure he played in '05 but most of his starts were as a Rookie and as a Backup. Nobody can game plan that. '06 was a better indication of what he is and could be. Then fat@$$ Rocky Bernard went aerial on him in '07 and that was that.

I can't wait to see if anyone starts using excuses for Hill's first loss. I'm not rooting for him to fail at all. It's rare for ANY QB to have a perfect season, so knowing that there will be a loss I want to see what people say about it. I see one "excuse" that is not the same as Smith's issues, then I might cut some slack. But I'm not gonna hold my breath.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by yoyo49:
He still went 7-5 in his last 12 starts before getting hurt. 2-1 under Hos. And he wasn't just an accessory in those games, he was making plays to help win those games. You keep trying to take that away from him. But he was the QB during that time so he gets credit for those wins just like you throw most of the blame at him for those loses. You said it yourself, you can make stats say whatever you want.

But he is just as responisble for the wins as he is for the loses.

He may not have improved staistically but he was making plays to win football games. He was learning to play the position. In my opnion he was getting better.



That final drive against Arizona in early 2007 showed a lot. He may have not scored a TD on that drive but he is the reason they scored. So its just goes to show that stats don't tell the whole story.

He was the reason the 49ers beat the cards that year, and the reason they beat Seahawks the year before, and made huge plays to beat the Broncos.

As money as Battle is normally that WOULD have been a TD on that play in most instances. It was just luck that Jackson got to fall on it to keep that drive alive.

But as you said Smith was responsible for the Wins as much if not more so than the Losses.

Impatience is the key to how people are treating Smith. That impatience is borne from seeing lesss than .500 results and Smith collecting big money every year during that time. Like that's HIS fault.

~Ceadder

ugh I hope smith can show up some time and be the qb he has the potential to be....

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:


Ok... Lets examine just how much he helped the Niners in that 07 Cards game you love...

1st Possession 10 yards total gain and then punt.
2nd Possession 6 yards total gain TD run by Gore.
3rd Possession 18 yards total gain and then punt.
4th Possession 5 yards total gain and then an Alex Fumble (AZ got a TD off of this)
5th Possession 49 yards total gain and then a 33yd FG.
6th Possession 21 yards total gain and then a 30 yd FG.
7th Possession 17 yards total gain and then punt.
8th Possession 2 yards total gain and then punt.
9th Possession 1 yard total gain and then punt.
10th Possession 1 yard total gain and then punt.
11th Possession 85 yards total gain and then AB run for a TD.

So, out of 11 drives he only had 1 that was over 50 yards but he had 6 possessions that were 10 yards or less... He averaged less then 20 yards per possession!... I don't see this as a major contribution and his QB rate of 59.3 for that game doesn't indicate he made much of a contribution.

Maybe if he completed at least 50% of his passes or if he didn't fumble on our own 36 yard line we would have been better off. And watch the AZ video you posted... The ball placement left his receiver exposed so that when he got hit the ball popped out. We were lucky that D-Drop was there to recover that ball.
So, how exactly did Smith win this game for us again?

Do you want to go over each of his 7 victories like this? Like I said above, he FAILED to score a TD in 4 of the 7 victories. This indicates he did not do much to help the TEAM in those wins. And LOL at you trying to downplay the stats...

You need to stop it with this double standard.

People give Hill all the credit in the world for being able to turn around a bad game against the Rams and bring them back on a final drive with a poorly thrown pass and a hell of a catch by Morgan. But when Smith does it, you blow it off as nothing and give him abosultely no credit even though he made several crucial plays on the final drive.

But lets examine that final drive.

Smith Completes passes for 10, 16, and the big one for 22 yards down the middle to Arnaz Battle. Yeah it was a little off but still in his hands and he should have not fumble, thats more on the reciever than on Smith. He also had a big run for about 25 yards on that drive on a 4th and 1. That final drive was all Smith. He is the reason the team got down to the 1. He is the Main reason they won that game.

Second, you don't even comment on the Seahawks game.

And I don't dismiss the stats. Nor have I made any excuses for the poor numbers. They are what they are. I just say they don't tell the whole story. The only one trying to downplay the stats is you. Your trying to downplay Smith's Victories.

Facts are facts. Smith may not have had great numbers, but the fact is he was the QB on the field during that time so he gets credit for the wins and the loses.

I'm going to keep saying that until you or anyone else can prove that he did not go 7-5 in his last 12 starts before sustaining his injury.

So just answer me one question and spare me all these statistics....

What was Alex Smith's record in his last twelve starts before sustaining an injury to his throwing shoulder?

Why stop at 12? Why not 26 games before the injury? Is it because he went 4-10 in his first 14 games? Why not only go with his last 9 games? Is it because he went 4-5 there? Why not look at all 30 of his starts where he went 11-19? So I'll ask again, whats so special about going back exactly 12 games?

Back to the AZ game now... Smith cost the team 7 points with his fumble, failed to score a single TD, completed less than 50% of his passes, and only put together one good drive in the game. Now you want to say this is the same as one of Hill's worst games (against the rams) where Shaun brought us back from being down 2 scores in the 4th quarter by driving down the field and throwing a TD not once but twice. There is a little difference between the performance of these two QB's.

Now what SeaHaggs game did you want me to comment on, the one where he threw for 162 yards or the one he threw for 163 yards?

As for down playing Smith's victories... I'm not at all satisfied with his performance in 4 of the 7 wins you love to talk about. Those 4 were Team victories; ones which they would have won regardless of who was behind center IMO...

As for the stats (note the bolded above)... First you want to talk facts. Then you don't want to talk stats; but, you're not dismissing the stats. You just don't want me to use them... I don't get it

The reason you look at his last twelve games is because you look at him and try to see if he has progressed from year 1 to year 2, to year 3. And the fact that he was starting to win more games right before he got hurt shows that he was progressing in the most important statistical catagory... victories.

Second, yes I want you to look at the seahawks game where he scored 2 TD's and one rushing.

And finally, on shaun Hill, you blame Smith for giving up 7 points against the Cards because of his fumble. What about the 3 interceptions Hill threw against the rams. Not 1 turnover..but THREE.

He also fumbled the ball but luckily the niners recovered.

Come on, we can play this game all day.

LOL... You didn't answer the question. Why 12? Why not 9 or 15 or 30? As for his progressing; I have shown you stats and you agreed he was regressing (much like this discussion IMO)...

Now what about Hill's 3 interceptions? I did say it was one of his worst games; but, ya know what, Hill was still able to get it together enough to score 2 TD's in the 4th quarter to win the game...

Now on to your SeaHawks game... Alex played a great 4th quarter. I would have liked to see a higher completion % and consistency through the game, especially when the running back gets over 140 yards on the ground.

So lets get to the numbers...

1st Possession 1 yard total gain and then punt.
2nd Possession 3 yards total gain and then punt.
3rd Possession 7 yards total gain and then punt.
4th Possession 9 yards total gain and then punt.
5th Possession 2 yards total gain and then (guess what) punt.
6th Possession 6 yards total gain and then punt.
7th Possession 59 yards total gain and then FG.
8th Possession 9 yards total gain and then punt.
Am I looking at the right game???

And then the 4th quarter...
9th Possession 90 yards total gain and then [bTD[/b] (54 of these yards came at the end of the 3rd quarter from a nice AS pass).
10th Possession 73 yard total gain and then TD.
11th Possession 86 yards total gain and then what another TD (rushing).
12th Possession run out the clock.

Alex played one hell of a 4th quarter 4 of his 6 passes were caught but the best stat for him was getting 2 TD's through the air... Way to go Alex. But wait, how did we get 3 TD's when Alex only completed 4 passes in the 4th quarter???

4th quarter in greater detail...
AS completed passes of: 13 yards, 8 yards, 5 yards, and 20 yards and he only had 2 incompletions (67%).
14 run plays were called... and Alex scrambled for another 3 plays. Wait 14 run plays... Yes, 14. Gore got 12 of those calls and gained 106 yards on the ground in the 4th quarter alone...

Now I don't want to take away from Smith throwing 2 TD's and running in for 1; but, lets not forget Franks 106 yards in the 4th quarter of that game. I don't think we would have won without Frank; but, this was one of Alex's best games and I was happy to see him get 3 TD's.

So I did you a solid; it's your turn now. How did Alex do when we played KC earlier that same year?

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:
D_Niner,

I'm done argueing with you. Your level of hate for this kid is amazing. I can have a discussion about the QB position with a logical person, and for the most part you have been. But when you start blaming WR's fumbling the ball on Smith, thats just stretching it to far. Incomplete passes is one thing, but once that ball is in the recievers hands and he takes 3 or 4 steps, its his responsiblity to hold on to it.

You said i was the one who was going to be making up excuses but it you coming up with excuses now to keep the kid down.

Recievers fumbling the football being Smith's fault... Ha

We are done D_Niner

Show me 1 excuse. Everything I posted can be backed up with Stats and Facts; unlike what you post that is mainly backed up with feelings...

As for the Fumb... Did you go back and watch the play like I suggested? It was high and behind the receiver leaving him exposed for the big hit. If it was in stride or even on the numbers it wouldn't have been a Fumb.

Anyways, I told you this is how it would end in reply 240... You Smith lovers are so predictable

BTW... I don't hate the guy. I just don't think he's a good QB.

Yeah i did look at the play. And it was a high pass and behind but the ball was in his hands, tucked away, he took about 3 steps, and had the ball safely tucked away before anyone was anywhere near him. He had no excuse fumbling that ball. Yeah it could have been a better pass but he's an nfl reciever and needs to hold on to the ball. That fumble is an excuse. I didn't see Josh Morgan fumble his pass from Shuan Hill into triple coverage and getting layed out by the Rams. No, he did his job and held onto the ball and scored the touchdown.

Also, Everything I have said is factual, name one thing I have said that isn't. I gave you stats and highlights to prove my points.

And btw, I have been on record as saying that Hill will win this competition,

You haters are just as perdictable, just as bad as us supporters, you can't stop once you get started. don't go around thinking your better than us just cuz you think your right. you engage in these arguements just as much as we do.

Your no better.

Ok, the underlined is not factual it sounds more like an emotional rant...

Also, talking about the AZ game, you previously said...

Originally posted by yoyo49:

That final drive was all Smith. He is the reason the team got down to the 1. He is the Main reason they won that game.

But, yet he had receivers who caught the balls and if D-Jax didn't recover that fumble at the end we would have lost. So, I think Smith put together a good drive but he had lots of help and was not "the reason the team got down to the 1" Battle and D-Jax deserve some credit here. This is why I call it a team victory.

[ Edited by D_Niner on May 28, 2009 at 19:32:22 ]

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:
D_Niner,

I'm done argueing with you. Your level of hate for this kid is amazing. I can have a discussion about the QB position with a logical person, and for the most part you have been. But when you start blaming WR's fumbling the ball on Smith, thats just stretching it to far. Incomplete passes is one thing, but once that ball is in the recievers hands and he takes 3 or 4 steps, its his responsiblity to hold on to it.

You said i was the one who was going to be making up excuses but it you coming up with excuses now to keep the kid down.

Recievers fumbling the football being Smith's fault... Ha

We are done D_Niner

Show me 1 excuse. Everything I posted can be backed up with Stats and Facts; unlike what you post that is mainly backed up with feelings...

As for the Fumb... Did you go back and watch the play like I suggested? It was high and behind the receiver leaving him exposed for the big hit. If it was in stride or even on the numbers it wouldn't have been a Fumb.

Anyways, I told you this is how it would end in reply 240... You Smith lovers are so predictable

BTW... I don't hate the guy. I just don't think he's a good QB.

Yeah i did look at the play. And it was a high pass and behind but the ball was in his hands, tucked away, he took about 3 steps, and had the ball safely tucked away before anyone was anywhere near him. He had no excuse fumbling that ball. Yeah it could have been a better pass but he's an nfl reciever and needs to hold on to the ball. That fumble is an excuse. I didn't see Josh Morgan fumble his pass from Shuan Hill into triple coverage and getting layed out by the Rams. No, he did his job and held onto the ball and scored the touchdown.

Also, Everything I have said is factual, name one thing I have said that isn't. I gave you stats and highlights to prove my points.

And btw, I have been on record as saying that Hill will win this competition,

You haters are just as perdictable, just as bad as us supporters, you can't stop once you get started. don't go around thinking your better than us just cuz you think your right. you engage in these arguements just as much as we do.

Your no better.

Ok, the underlined is not factual it sounds more like an emotional rant...

Also, talking about the AZ game, you previously said...

Originally posted by yoyo49:

That final drive was all Smith. He is the reason the team got down to the 1. He is the Main reason they won that game.

But, yet he had receivers who caught the balls and if D-Jax didn't recover that fumble at the end we would have lost. So, I think Smith put together a good drive but he had lots of help and was not "the reason the team got down to the 1" Battle and D-Jax deserve some credit here. This is why I call it a team victory.

You know what I meant. Your just nit-picking now. I mean where was the running game in all those 3 and out posessions when Smith was at QB?Where was the defense, giving up 30 or 40 plus points a game? Its a team game right? I could say all of Hill's victories were team victories as well but to be honest I am just getting tired of this.

Like I said in my last post and like you said earlier, we could play this game forever. but i know your type D_Niner, you have to get the last word. So to end this god forsaken arguement, get your last two cents in and let it be over with.



Oh and I picked 12 games because that was a turning point in Smith's young career. It was at that point when Smith started winning more games then losing. Like I said, to me, it showed a progression in his career as a QB.

[ Edited by yoyo49 on May 28, 2009 at 20:45:11 ]

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:
D_Niner,

I'm done argueing with you. Your level of hate for this kid is amazing. I can have a discussion about the QB position with a logical person, and for the most part you have been. But when you start blaming WR's fumbling the ball on Smith, thats just stretching it to far. Incomplete passes is one thing, but once that ball is in the recievers hands and he takes 3 or 4 steps, its his responsiblity to hold on to it.

You said i was the one who was going to be making up excuses but it you coming up with excuses now to keep the kid down.

Recievers fumbling the football being Smith's fault... Ha

We are done D_Niner

Show me 1 excuse. Everything I posted can be backed up with Stats and Facts; unlike what you post that is mainly backed up with feelings...

As for the Fumb... Did you go back and watch the play like I suggested? It was high and behind the receiver leaving him exposed for the big hit. If it was in stride or even on the numbers it wouldn't have been a Fumb.

Anyways, I told you this is how it would end in reply 240... You Smith lovers are so predictable

BTW... I don't hate the guy. I just don't think he's a good QB.

Yeah i did look at the play. And it was a high pass and behind but the ball was in his hands, tucked away, he took about 3 steps, and had the ball safely tucked away before anyone was anywhere near him. He had no excuse fumbling that ball. Yeah it could have been a better pass but he's an nfl reciever and needs to hold on to the ball. That fumble is an excuse. I didn't see Josh Morgan fumble his pass from Shuan Hill into triple coverage and getting layed out by the Rams. No, he did his job and held onto the ball and scored the touchdown.

Also, Everything I have said is factual, name one thing I have said that isn't. I gave you stats and highlights to prove my points.

And btw, I have been on record as saying that Hill will win this competition,

You haters are just as perdictable, just as bad as us supporters, you can't stop once you get started. don't go around thinking your better than us just cuz you think your right. you engage in these arguements just as much as we do.

Your no better.

Ok, the underlined is not factual it sounds more like an emotional rant...

Also, talking about the AZ game, you previously said...

Originally posted by yoyo49:

That final drive was all Smith. He is the reason the team got down to the 1. He is the Main reason they won that game.

But, yet he had receivers who caught the balls and if D-Jax didn't recover that fumble at the end we would have lost. So, I think Smith put together a good drive but he had lots of help and was not "the reason the team got down to the 1" Battle and D-Jax deserve some credit here. This is why I call it a team victory.

You know what I meant. Your just nit-picking now. I mean where was the running game in all those 3 and out posessions when Smith was at QB?Where was the defense, giving up 30 or 40 plus points a game? Its a team game right? I could say all of Hill's victories were team victories as well but to be honest I am just getting tired of this.

Like I said in my last post and like you said earlier, we could play this game forever. but i know your type D_Niner, you have to get the last word. So to end this god forsaken arguement, get your last two cents in and let it be over with.



Oh and I picked 12 games because that was a turning point in Smith's young career. It was at that point when Smith started winning more games then losing. Like I said, to me, it showed a progression in his career as a QB.

Thanks for being so gracious as to give me the last word. I mean it's only fair when you make emotional unsubstantiated accusations. Why don't we steer this conversation back to football though...

I gave you my evaluation of smith's performance against Seattle that was completely fair and accurate; but' I'm still waiting for your evaluation of Smith's performance against KC in 2006. A doubt you could be anywhere near as fair in your evaluation as I was in mine...

And you did not choose 12 games because it was a turning point. You chose 12 games because it paints a rosier picture for smith and it gives you some hope to cling to. In some way you think 12 games helps you prove your point.

BTW the bolded above is yet another non-fact based statement.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:


Ok... Lets examine just how much he helped the Niners in that 07 Cards game you love...

1st Possession 10 yards total gain and then punt.
2nd Possession 6 yards total gain TD run by Gore.
3rd Possession 18 yards total gain and then punt.
4th Possession 5 yards total gain and then an Alex Fumble (AZ got a TD off of this)
5th Possession 49 yards total gain and then a 33yd FG.
6th Possession 21 yards total gain and then a 30 yd FG.
7th Possession 17 yards total gain and then punt.
8th Possession 2 yards total gain and then punt.
9th Possession 1 yard total gain and then punt.
10th Possession 1 yard total gain and then punt.
11th Possession 85 yards total gain and then AB run for a TD.

So, out of 11 drives he only had 1 that was over 50 yards but he had 6 possessions that were 10 yards or less... He averaged less then 20 yards per possession!... I don't see this as a major contribution and his QB rate of 59.3 for that game doesn't indicate he made much of a contribution.

Maybe if he completed at least 50% of his passes or if he didn't fumble on our own 36 yard line we would have been better off. And watch the AZ video you posted... The ball placement left his receiver exposed so that when he got hit the ball popped out. We were lucky that D-Drop was there to recover that ball.
So, how exactly did Smith win this game for us again?

Do you want to go over each of his 7 victories like this? Like I said above, he FAILED to score a TD in 4 of the 7 victories. This indicates he did not do much to help the TEAM in those wins. And LOL at you trying to downplay the stats...

You need to stop it with this double standard.

People give Hill all the credit in the world for being able to turn around a bad game against the Rams and bring them back on a final drive with a poorly thrown pass and a hell of a catch by Morgan. But when Smith does it, you blow it off as nothing and give him abosultely no credit even though he made several crucial plays on the final drive.

But lets examine that final drive.

Smith Completes passes for 10, 16, and the big one for 22 yards down the middle to Arnaz Battle. Yeah it was a little off but still in his hands and he should have not fumble, thats more on the reciever than on Smith. He also had a big run for about 25 yards on that drive on a 4th and 1. That final drive was all Smith. He is the reason the team got down to the 1. He is the Main reason they won that game.

Second, you don't even comment on the Seahawks game.

And I don't dismiss the stats. Nor have I made any excuses for the poor numbers. They are what they are. I just say they don't tell the whole story. The only one trying to downplay the stats is you. Your trying to downplay Smith's Victories.

Facts are facts. Smith may not have had great numbers, but the fact is he was the QB on the field during that time so he gets credit for the wins and the loses.

I'm going to keep saying that until you or anyone else can prove that he did not go 7-5 in his last 12 starts before sustaining his injury.

So just answer me one question and spare me all these statistics....

What was Alex Smith's record in his last twelve starts before sustaining an injury to his throwing shoulder?

Why stop at 12? Why not 26 games before the injury? Is it because he went 4-10 in his first 14 games? Why not only go with his last 9 games? Is it because he went 4-5 there? Why not look at all 30 of his starts where he went 11-19? So I'll ask again, whats so special about going back exactly 12 games?

Back to the AZ game now... Smith cost the team 7 points with his fumble, failed to score a single TD, completed less than 50% of his passes, and only put together one good drive in the game. Now you want to say this is the same as one of Hill's worst games (against the rams) where Shaun brought us back from being down 2 scores in the 4th quarter by driving down the field and throwing a TD not once but twice. There is a little difference between the performance of these two QB's.

Now what SeaHaggs game did you want me to comment on, the one where he threw for 162 yards or the one he threw for 163 yards?

As for down playing Smith's victories... I'm not at all satisfied with his performance in 4 of the 7 wins you love to talk about. Those 4 were Team victories; ones which they would have won regardless of who was behind center IMO...

As for the stats (note the bolded above)... First you want to talk facts. Then you don't want to talk stats; but, you're not dismissing the stats. You just don't want me to use them... I don't get it

The reason you look at his last twelve games is because you look at him and try to see if he has progressed from year 1 to year 2, to year 3. And the fact that he was starting to win more games right before he got hurt shows that he was progressing in the most important statistical catagory... victories.

Second, yes I want you to look at the seahawks game where he scored 2 TD's and one rushing.

And finally, on shaun Hill, you blame Smith for giving up 7 points against the Cards because of his fumble. What about the 3 interceptions Hill threw against the rams. Not 1 turnover..but THREE.

He also fumbled the ball but luckily the niners recovered.

Come on, we can play this game all day.

LOL... You didn't answer the question. Why 12? Why not 9 or 15 or 30? As for his progressing; I have shown you stats and you agreed he was regressing (much like this discussion IMO)...

Now what about Hill's 3 interceptions? I did say it was one of his worst games; but, ya know what, Hill was still able to get it together enough to score 2 TD's in the 4th quarter to win the game...

Now on to your SeaHawks game... Alex played a great 4th quarter. I would have liked to see a higher completion % and consistency through the game, especially when the running back gets over 140 yards on the ground.

So lets get to the numbers...

1st Possession 1 yard total gain and then punt.
2nd Possession 3 yards total gain and then punt.
3rd Possession 7 yards total gain and then punt.
4th Possession 9 yards total gain and then punt.
5th Possession 2 yards total gain and then (guess what) punt.
6th Possession 6 yards total gain and then punt.
7th Possession 59 yards total gain and then FG.
8th Possession 9 yards total gain and then punt.
Am I looking at the right game???

And then the 4th quarter...
9th Possession 90 yards total gain and then [bTD[/b] (54 of these yards came at the end of the 3rd quarter from a nice AS pass).
10th Possession 73 yard total gain and then TD.
11th Possession 86 yards total gain and then what another TD (rushing).
12th Possession run out the clock.

Alex played one hell of a 4th quarter 4 of his 6 passes were caught but the best stat for him was getting 2 TD's through the air... Way to go Alex. But wait, how did we get 3 TD's when Alex only completed 4 passes in the 4th quarter???

4th quarter in greater detail...
AS completed passes of: 13 yards, 8 yards, 5 yards, and 20 yards and he only had 2 incompletions (67%).
14 run plays were called... and Alex scrambled for another 3 plays. Wait 14 run plays... Yes, 14. Gore got 12 of those calls and gained 106 yards on the ground in the 4th quarter alone...

Now I don't want to take away from Smith throwing 2 TD's and running in for 1; but, lets not forget Franks 106 yards in the 4th quarter of that game. I don't think we would have won without Frank; but, this was one of Alex's best games and I was happy to see him get 3 TD's.

So I did you a solid; it's your turn now. How did Alex do when we played KC earlier that same year?

Daaamn son,,, D_Niner is merciless - he just blew up all your hopes and dreams and sh_t... He even blew up your whole neighborhood!!!





DAMN!!!!! There's nothing left - there's nothing left!!!

Dirty

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:
D_Niner,

I'm done argueing with you. Your level of hate for this kid is amazing. I can have a discussion about the QB position with a logical person, and for the most part you have been. But when you start blaming WR's fumbling the ball on Smith, thats just stretching it to far. Incomplete passes is one thing, but once that ball is in the recievers hands and he takes 3 or 4 steps, its his responsiblity to hold on to it.

You said i was the one who was going to be making up excuses but it you coming up with excuses now to keep the kid down.

Recievers fumbling the football being Smith's fault... Ha

We are done D_Niner

Show me 1 excuse. Everything I posted can be backed up with Stats and Facts; unlike what you post that is mainly backed up with feelings...

As for the Fumb... Did you go back and watch the play like I suggested? It was high and behind the receiver leaving him exposed for the big hit. If it was in stride or even on the numbers it wouldn't have been a Fumb.

Anyways, I told you this is how it would end in reply 240... You Smith lovers are so predictable

BTW... I don't hate the guy. I just don't think he's a good QB.

Yeah i did look at the play. And it was a high pass and behind but the ball was in his hands, tucked away, he took about 3 steps, and had the ball safely tucked away before anyone was anywhere near him. He had no excuse fumbling that ball. Yeah it could have been a better pass but he's an nfl reciever and needs to hold on to the ball. That fumble is an excuse. I didn't see Josh Morgan fumble his pass from Shuan Hill into triple coverage and getting layed out by the Rams. No, he did his job and held onto the ball and scored the touchdown.

Also, Everything I have said is factual, name one thing I have said that isn't. I gave you stats and highlights to prove my points.

And btw, I have been on record as saying that Hill will win this competition,

You haters are just as perdictable, just as bad as us supporters, you can't stop once you get started. don't go around thinking your better than us just cuz you think your right. you engage in these arguements just as much as we do.

Your no better.

Ok, the underlined is not factual it sounds more like an emotional rant...

Also, talking about the AZ game, you previously said...

Originally posted by yoyo49:

That final drive was all Smith. He is the reason the team got down to the 1. He is the Main reason they won that game.

But, yet he had receivers who caught the balls and if D-Jax didn't recover that fumble at the end we would have lost. So, I think Smith put together a good drive but he had lots of help and was not "the reason the team got down to the 1" Battle and D-Jax deserve some credit here. This is why I call it a team victory.

You know what I meant. Your just nit-picking now. I mean where was the running game in all those 3 and out posessions when Smith was at QB?Where was the defense, giving up 30 or 40 plus points a game? Its a team game right? I could say all of Hill's victories were team victories as well but to be honest I am just getting tired of this.

Like I said in my last post and like you said earlier, we could play this game forever. but i know your type D_Niner, you have to get the last word. So to end this god forsaken arguement, get your last two cents in and let it be over with.



Oh and I picked 12 games because that was a turning point in Smith's young career. It was at that point when Smith started winning more games then losing. Like I said, to me, it showed a progression in his career as a QB.

Thanks for being so gracious as to give me the last word. I mean it's only fair when you make emotional unsubstantiated accusations. Why don't we steer this conversation back to football though...

I gave you my evaluation of smith's performance against Seattle that was completely fair and accurate; but' I'm still waiting for your evaluation of Smith's performance against KC in 2006. A doubt you could be anywhere near as fair in your evaluation as I was in mine...

And you did not choose 12 games because it was a turning point. You chose 12 games because it paints a rosier picture for smith and it gives you some hope to cling to. In some way you think 12 games helps you prove your point.
BTW the bolded above is yet another non-fact based statement.

I thought we were trying to be factual here and not try and read other peoples minds.

Yes, Alex Smith stunk up the joint in that game. But so did every other aspect of the 49ers team. 41 points given up by the defense. 65 yards by Gore.

And I chose the last 12 games because you look at things as a progression. Especially with a player starting his 3rd season. (at the time) It would be different if I chose 12 games in the middle of his career or chose to only look at his second year. But I chose those 12 games because he began winning more than losing before getting hurt. 7-5 is a winning record.

But lets be more "factual" and not make is seem so delibrate as you accuse me of being. Lets just cut his first 26 games in half before his injury.

First 13 games 4-9
Last 13 games 7-6

My arguement still holds water. In the second half of his young career Smith starts winning more games than he loses. before his injury of course.

And that is Fact, Smith's has more wins then loses the second half of his career. Thats a winning record. And its a fair comparison. Its cut stairght down the middle. Not a delibrately selected number of games.

LOL @ D_Niner breaking out all those stats.....hes a tuff one!!! I remember him and I going at it back in the Ken Dorsey days, he was the same way.

Here's to you D_Niner My boy is out of the league right now. Oh well onto the Shaun Hill Starship!!!

I fell into D_Niners little trap. I let him get me off topic and into his playing field.

But no more, I'm sticking to my orginal post and I'm not got let D_Niner or any else get me off course.

Smith is 7-5 in last 12 healthy starts and 7-6 in the second half of his career before sustaining the shoulder injury.

Both winning records.

Originally posted by yoyo49:


I thought we were trying to be factual here and not try and read other peoples minds.

Yes, Alex Smith stunk up the joint in that game. But so did every other aspect of the 49ers team. 41 points given up by the defense. 65 yards by Gore.

And I chose the last 12 games because you look at things as a progression. Especially with a player starting his 3rd season. (at the time) It would be different if I chose 12 games in the middle of his career or chose to only look at his second year. But I chose those 12 games because he began winning more than losing before getting hurt. 7-5 is a winning record.

But lets be more "factual" and not make is seem so delibrate as you accuse me of being. Lets just cut his first 26 games in half before his injury.

First 13 games 4-9
Last 13 games 7-6

My argument still holds water. In the second half of his young career Smith starts winning more games than he loses. before his injury of course.

And that is Fact, Smith's has more wins then loses the second half of his career. That's a winning record. And its a fair comparison. Its cut straight down the middle. Not a deliberately selected number of games.

At least the 50% thing isn't just picking a spot that paints the best picture for the guy you support... Now I'm not a big Hill fan; but, lets be fair and do the same for Shaun... Ok, 10 starts means we only look at his last 5 games which would make him 4-1. So that's 80%...

7-6 for Smith would be what? 55% or so? How is that better and how has 2 shoulder surgeries and not playing in a game for almost 2 years helped things???

Ya know, on second thought... I don't like the 1/2 split method. I think Alex has shown us he is more of a 40%-45% (not 55%) win guy and Shaun is maybe a 60-65% (certainly not 80%) win guy (I don't know if 5 games really is enough to gauge him by).

I guess if we want to be fair, we should just look at the last 10 starts each of these guys had. AS = 4-6* and Hill = 7-3.

*BTW I don't give Alex a break for being injured. He still strapped on his helmet and told the coach he could go. I could understand maybe 1 game to realize that he's still too hurt to play but 3... I don't think so. So IMO he should be held accountable for those poor decisions as well. I do discount the game he got hurt in (you can't hold that against Alex)...

Peace bro. I'm out for the Weekend.

(BTW what happened to giving me the final word. LOL, or were you describing yourself when you said those things?)

Originally posted by Kolohe:
LOL @ D_Niner breaking out all those stats.....hes a tuff one!!! I remember him and I going at it back in the Ken Dorsey days, he was the same way.

Here's to you D_Niner My boy is out of the league right now. Oh well onto the Shaun Hill Starship!!!

LOL, I remember that. You made some good points and opened my eyes to some things I didn't know about Dorsey. So, all was not lost...

Don't worry though, you guys will get a break from the stats over the next few weeks. I've got another series of classes that I start teaching next week.

Originally posted by D_Niner:

Originally posted by yoyo49:


I thought we were trying to be factual here and not try and read other peoples minds.

Yes, Alex Smith stunk up the joint in that game. But so did every other aspect of the 49ers team. 41 points given up by the defense. 65 yards by Gore.

And I chose the last 12 games because you look at things as a progression. Especially with a player starting his 3rd season. (at the time) It would be different if I chose 12 games in the middle of his career or chose to only look at his second year. But I chose those 12 games because he began winning more than losing before getting hurt. 7-5 is a winning record.

But lets be more "factual" and not make is seem so delibrate as you accuse me of being. Lets just cut his first 26 games in half before his injury.

First 13 games 4-9
Last 13 games 7-6

My argument still holds water. In the second half of his young career Smith starts winning more games than he loses. before his injury of course.

And that is Fact, Smith's has more wins then loses the second half of his career. That's a winning record. And its a fair comparison. Its cut straight down the middle. Not a deliberately selected number of games.

At least the 50% thing isn't just picking a spot that paints the best picture for the guy you support... Now I'm not a big Hill fan; but, lets be fair and do the same for Shaun... Ok, 10 starts means we only look at his last 5 games which would make him 4-1. So that's 80%...

7-6 for Smith would be what? 55% or so? How is that better and how has 2 shoulder surgeries and not playing in a game for almost 2 years helped things???

Ya know, on second thought... I don't like the 1/2 split method. I think Alex has shown us he is more of a 40%-45% (not 55%) win guy and Shaun is maybe a 60-65% (certainly not 80%) win guy (I don't know if 5 games really is enough to gauge him by).

I guess if we want to be fair, we should just look at the last 10 starts each of these guys had. AS = 4-6* and Hill = 7-3.

*BTW I don't give Alex a break for being injured. He still strapped on his helmet and told the coach he could go. I could understand maybe 1 game to realize that he's still too hurt to play but 3... I don't think so. So IMO he should be held accountable for those poor decisions as well. I do discount the game he got hurt in (you can't hold that against Alex)...

Peace bro. I'm out for the Weekend.

(BTW what happened to giving me the final word. LOL, or were you describing yourself when you said those things?)

Sorry, what can i say, I'm just like you. I can't walk away.

Second, I have never taken anything away from Hill and have always stated he will win the starting job this season.

Third, if I recall currectly, Smith said his shoulder was not fit to go. It was Nolan who forced him back out onto the field even though Smith said no. Smith did use better judgement and wanted to sit out. Thats were the hold rift between Nolan and Smith began. So those loses are at the feet of Nolan, not Smith. So i don't count them on account of bad decision making on the coaches behalf.

Have a nice weekend

I still don't understand why people want to throw out his post injury games in 2007. The dude was JUST AS SORRY in those games as he was in 2006 and early 2007.

I'm saying this: if you showed a non 49er fan 4 games from 2007 with 2 being pre-injury and 2 being post-injury they would have no idea when he was hurt and when he wasn't. The 7-5 record that people are fishing for is ridiculous.

Look at this video post-injury (also note the situation in the game; 7-7 early on...WE ARE IN THIS GAME):

LINK

Now, tell me, what does his injury have to do with that? I'm in medical school right now and I've learned all about the AC joint, rotator cuff, and shoulder girdle in general. There is ZERO % chance that a shoulder separation is going to make you overthrow the ball. HE WAS FINE. Everyone loves to hold onto the JP comment like it's some sort of word of God.

Anyway, I'm just saying you can't tell the difference between his play pre-injury and post-injury...he was just as bad in both instances.

[ Edited by Leathaface on May 29, 2009 at 17:04:49 ]