NFL DRAFT and Race

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Ripamaru:
I don't believe that NFL teams or scouts are making racial judgements on players. They want to win. Their jobs are on the line. At one point they did block black QB's decades ago but that ended and there is a long history of black QBs drafted highly. Watson was underestimated foolishly on concerns that just didn't show up on film. Jackson had very legitimate concerns about his accuracy. He still isn't a very accurate passer he's just a freak athlete in a great situation. I still very much doubt he can win a SB without a dominant supporting cast.

Some in the media do use stereotypes and show subconscious bias. Which is what this thread is about. That is fairly obvious when you see ignorant things like Fields having poor work ethic or trouble with progressions being put out there.

The media definitely magnifies it. I'm sure coaches just want to win.

Of course coaches want to win. If there's a coach or GM in the league that consciously says "I know x player gives me the best opportunity to win, but I will never give them the chance because of their race" I'd be shocked.

The question lies in whether unconscious biases exist that affect their ability to objectively evaluate what a player's strengths or weaknesses are. All coaches, all GMs are going to have biases, because all people have biases. Given America's history, it's understandable that there's a lot of focus specifically on racial bias; I personally think that it's still out there, probably more often unconscious than intentional. I think it would be likely be helpful if we could discuss racial bias as a phenomenon in the context recognizing and hopefully overcoming unconscious biases rather than to immediately apply a value judgment—i.e. "he has bias and is therefore a racist and a terrible person."

Yes, there is a bias against white WR and CB. I think that a white WR/CB will get downgraded 1 or 2 rds

In the past there has been some bias against black QB's but I think that is now over

Originally posted by swayze:
Of course coaches want to win. If there's a coach or GM in the league that consciously says "I know x player gives me the best opportunity to win, but I will never give them the chance because of their race" I'd be shocked.

The question lies in whether unconscious biases exist that affect their ability to objectively evaluate what a player's strengths or weaknesses are. All coaches, all GMs are going to have biases, because all people have biases. Given America's history, it's understandable that there's a lot of focus specifically on racial bias; I personally think that it's still out there, probably more often unconscious than intentional. I think it would be likely be helpful if we could discuss racial bias as a phenomenon in the context recognizing and hopefully overcoming unconscious biases rather than to immediately apply a value judgment—i.e. "he has bias and is therefore a racist and a terrible person."

This is an outstanding post, and I completely agree. It's hard to quantify because we aren't in the heads of these GM's and coaches, but it's certainly real.

It goes further as well

How many times do we hear these kids being told they should change positions as well from an early age?

I mean Lamar didn't even run a 40, and had to refuse to do WR drills at the combine, this is a Heismann and future MVP, and there are still people who say he can't play QB!!!!!

If Taysom Hill managed to have the exact same career would he have the same critiques?

There are 100% racially based biases still out there. If people think there aren't then you're in denial.

The fact that there are people still out there commenting that Justin Fields is a run first QB says just that. The fact that teams are trying to push him down by saying he's lazy says just that.

I do think teams have moved on from them but there are likely still scouts out there who still use that way of thinkings. More of the old school ones. There's a reason Bill Polian says some of the stupid s**t he says. Someone told Gil Brandt they have a 4th round grade on Fields. How someone can say that with a straight face I don't know.

Originally posted by genus49:
There are 100% racially based biases still out there. If people think there aren't then you're in denial.

The fact that there are people still out there commenting that Justin Fields is a run first QB says just that. The fact that teams are trying to push him down by saying he's lazy says just that.

I do think teams have moved on from them but there are likely still scouts out there who still use that way of thinkings. More of the old school ones. There's a reason Bill Polian says some of the stupid s**t he says. Someone told Gil Brandt they have a 4th round grade on Fields. How someone can say that with a straight face I don't know.

Last one in the building, first one out

Originally posted by Young2Owens:

Originally posted by irishluder:

Originally posted by Young2Owens:

Originally posted by irishluder:

Originally posted by Young2Owens:

Originally posted by irishluder:

Originally posted by Joecool:
It's real but let's hope we can discuss it without getting overly passionate or without thinking that it doesn't occur.

The other contrast that we have seen are white skill position players being over drafted because of their combine numbers.

Matt Jones comes to mind.

This is hilarious how many white WR's/RB's/TE's have been over drafted because of the simple fact that they are white.... for the QB position I'll give you that there was a time when black QB's weren't given a fair shake, but to claim the NFL as it stands today is inherently racist is ludicrous. Lets be social justice warriors and show that the NFL is PREDOMINATELY Black... so lets change that and keep highly athletic black athletes on the sidelines and fairly share the rosters between every race and gender identity to ensure we are all super WOKE

How about we let the athletes decide their own futures and regardless of where a player is selected and regardless of their race let them play their way into a roster and flourish or fail based on their work ethic and ability to pick up a play book and process in the game.

Lots of straw man arguments in this comment. Nobody is arguing for any racial quotas or to be more "woke". It's just a discussion on the biases that media pundits and analysts show when they are discussing QB different prospects of similar caliber.

Help me understand then... the last white player that was highly drafted at a position group was Christian McCaffery and he sure as hell has proved he belongs... How are white skill position players being over drafted???? How can you argue that the NFL is racist when its played by a strong majority of black players... this whole thing is absolutely ridiculous. Please prove me wrong.... and for what its worth I'm in the Justin Fields camp lol

I think you're responding to the other poster's comment on the overdrafting point. I don't know anything about that subtopic so no comment there. I don't think McCaffrey was over drafted, he's a beast.

But the core topic of this thread stems from the criticisms and comments being made about Fields and his skillset that other QBs *cough* Mac Jones *cough* seem to get a pass on.

Yeah I can see that Mac Jones being drafted before Fields as odd, especially because of the DUI and his dad bod, but you can't argue that his processing of his offense is elite, so it again for me is let them get picked and make a roster and let them fail or flouish based on their work ethic and ability to play within the play book, I just hate to see the game get tainted by skin color... I watch this game to get away from that ish... let the player and team play to their full potential regardless or where they came from or their skin color or physical limitations. Frank Gore is still one of my favorite players and he came up in a horrible part of Florida and severe knee injuries to be one of the best, he's got severe learning issues too, but he fought hard through all of that!!! I give the man mad respect! Tom Brady was barely drafted and is now the GOAT... this I what I love about the NFL and the draft.... these players have the ability to make their futures. Sadly, plenty throw it all away like Aldon Smith...race or skin color had no part in any of these stories and I don't see that changing.

Hey man I think we agree on more things than we don't.

Regardless of media talk, I don't think the scouts and coaches and others who make actual money decisions generally hold these biases, or at least let them influence their decision making. They simply can't afford to if they want to win.

Hell yeah we do!

GO NINERS...and I pray its Fields and not Jones

Originally posted by maxsmart:
Yes, there is a bias against white WR and CB. I think that a white WR/CB will get downgraded 1 or 2 rds

In the past there has been some bias against black QB's but I think that is now over

I don't know. I have seen the opposite happen to often, which is a white skill position runs a 4.4, then he immediately jumps up without as much criticism of technique.

but I think marketability has more to do with that. Just look at Tim Tebow, Jason Sehorn, or Matt Jones. Jones a QB in college drafted in the 1st round as a WR?

Originally posted by genus49:
There are 100% racially based biases still out there. If people think there aren't then you're in denial.

The fact that there are people still out there commenting that Justin Fields is a run first QB says just that. The fact that teams are trying to push him down by saying he's lazy says just that.

I do think teams have moved on from them but there are likely still scouts out there who still use that way of thinkings. More of the old school ones. There's a reason Bill Polian says some of the stupid s**t he says. Someone told Gil Brandt they have a 4th round grade on Fields. How someone can say that with a straight face I don't know.

In fairness teams often send out misinformation. They may be saying we have him as a 4th rounder to disguise where they actually do have him. It only takes Fields slipping past us for him to be a huge trade up commodity.

Originally posted by 49erBigMac:
This is an outstanding post, and I completely agree. It's hard to quantify because we aren't in the heads of these GM's and coaches, but it's certainly real.

It goes further as well

How many times do we hear these kids being told they should change positions as well from an early age?

I mean Lamar didn't even run a 40, and had to refuse to do WR drills at the combine, this is a Heismann and future MVP, and there are still people who say he can't play QB!!!!!

If Taysom Hill managed to have the exact same career would he have the same critiques?

If we are being honest. Do we really know that he CAN play QB? He didn't really win the Heisman or MVP based off of normal quarterbacking skills.

Not sure Taysom Hill is a good example to use as I view Hill as a poor man's Lamar. Wouldn't want him leading my team either

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by 49erBigMac:
This is an outstanding post, and I completely agree. It's hard to quantify because we aren't in the heads of these GM's and coaches, but it's certainly real.

It goes further as well

How many times do we hear these kids being told they should change positions as well from an early age?

I mean Lamar didn't even run a 40, and had to refuse to do WR drills at the combine, this is a Heismann and future MVP, and there are still people who say he can't play QB!!!!!

If Taysom Hill managed to have the exact same career would he have the same critiques?

If we are being honest. Do we really know that he CAN play QB? He didn't really win the Heisman or MVP based off of normal quarterbacking skills.

Not sure Taysom Hill is a good example to use as I view Hill as a poor man's Lamar. Wouldn't want him leading my team either

Are you serious? What's a quarterbacks role? To lead the team, protect the football, score touchdowns and win. Because he's an excellent runner all of a sudden he's not a quarterback?

That's such a dumb narrative.

Originally posted by DaBeegDeek:

Are you serious? What's a quarterbacks role? To lead the team, protect the football, score touchdowns and win. Because he's an excellent runner all of a sudden he's not a quarterback?

That's such a dumb narrative.

He is not a quarterback

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by DaBeegDeek:

Are you serious? What's a quarterbacks role? To lead the team, protect the football, score touchdowns and win. Because he's an excellent runner all of a sudden he's not a quarterback?

That's such a dumb narrative.

He is not a quarterback

You have a real antiquated way of looking at the position. You should keep an open mind. I'm sure theres a reason you dont like Lamar Jackson, maybe if he threw for 40 touchdowns and 0 interceptions instead of 36 touchdowns with 6 in 2019 you would consider him a QB.

Originally posted by DaBeegDeek:

Originally posted by krizay:

Originally posted by DaBeegDeek:

Are you serious? What's a quarterbacks role? To lead the team, protect the football, score touchdowns and win. Because he's an excellent runner all of a sudden he's not a quarterback?

That's such a dumb narrative.

He is not a quarterback

You have a real antiquated way of looking at the position. You should keep an open mind. I'm sure theres a reason you dont like Lamar Jackson, maybe if he threw for 40 touchdowns and 0 interceptions instead of 36 touchdowns with 6 in 2019 you would consider him a QB.

Lmao. Right. Can he play QB? Seriously? There are 32 starting jobs and 32 backup positions. To question if he can even play is like saying this guy isn't even the 64th best QB in the NFL. I just can't with some of these takes.

Originally posted by genus49:
There are 100% racially based biases still out there. If people think there aren't then you're in denial.

The fact that there are people still out there commenting that Justin Fields is a run first QB says just that. The fact that teams are trying to push him down by saying he's lazy says just that.

I do think teams have moved on from them but there are likely still scouts out there who still use that way of thinkings. More of the old school ones. There's a reason Bill Polian says some of the stupid s**t he says. Someone told Gil Brandt they have a 4th round grade on Fields. How someone can say that with a straight face I don't know.

I don't think he is a "run first" QB. His ability to run however may make him inclined to use it sooner than he should.