Joe Williams - RB, Utah

Originally posted by Joecool:
I think Hyde is on his way out. There is no reason to shell out starting RB money and commit to him for even 3 years when he has not shown that he can carry the load, especially when we have a coach who finds RB's deeper in the draft. Knowing this, I think Williams will see more action very soon. And don't forget, Shanny and Lynch had to send a message to him for him to get lit up. That's already a bad sign.

This is Hydes last year in a 49ers uniform regardless of his stats this year. No doubt in my mind. The same reasons people used for why we would not Draft Fournette or a first round RB under shanny, possibly ever, are the same reasons why Hyde will not be resigned.

Originally posted by ChazBoner:
good to see we have a guy that can take over when hyde goes on IR by week 5.

Most positive thing I've seen you post all year

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Joe Williams is 5'11 210 pounds.

I still don't see why he is considered a small back. He has very good size for a rookie RB and can easily gain 5 to 10 pounds. He is a 4-down back.

I don't recall size being the knock against him. I think it was his upright running style and inability to create. That's what (for now) keeps him from being a "four down back". He obviously excels outside the tackles. You need that on the team. But you also need somebody who can make it happen between the tackles as well...IF you want to be a four down back.

Frank Gore was 220+ and I like a big back that can take on a DE or a DT hitting him. Joe to me is a smallish back and I'd hate to see him hi-lowed at the LOS and I just hope he has the muscle to hold on to the ball at that time. I guess to me a regular sized back is in the neighborhood of Frank Gore's size (maybe I got spoiled watching the guy take hit after hit and getting up) but that's why I would think Williams is a small back.

Joe Williams is not an undersized back. He is also not just an outside runner. He is very decisive when choosing an inside hole/lane, and when he decides, he hits the hole with extreme violence. He doesn't have the body manipulation that Gore had/has when going through tight spaces, but what he does have is that elite vision to see the hole opening, and then he has the speed to make it through before it closes.

Only a matter of time before he is the lead back in SF. This kid is legit.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Joe Williams is 5'11 210 pounds.

I still don't see why he is considered a small back. He has very good size for a rookie RB and can easily gain 5 to 10 pounds. He is a 4-down back.

I don't recall size being the knock against him. I think it was his upright running style and inability to create. That's what (for now) keeps him from being a "four down back". He obviously excels outside the tackles. You need that on the team. But you also need somebody who can make it happen between the tackles as well...IF you want to be a four down back.

Frank Gore was 220+ and I like a big back that can take on a DE or a DT hitting him. Joe to me is a smallish back and I'd hate to see him hi-lowed at the LOS and I just hope he has the muscle to hold on to the ball at that time. I guess to me a regular sized back is in the neighborhood of Frank Gore's size (maybe I got spoiled watching the guy take hit after hit and getting up) but that's why I would think Williams is a small back.

Frank Gore is listed anywhere between 211 and 220 pounds on several sites. He's not much bigger than Williams. Here's the size of other 4-down backs:

Emmitt Smith: 5'9, 216
Tomlinson: 5'10, 221
Thurman Thomas: 5'10, 210

Williams is 210 as a rookie. He can easily gain 5 to 10 pounds.

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Joe Williams is not an undersized back. He is also not just an outside runner. He is very decisive when choosing an inside hole/lane, and when he decides, he hits the hole with extreme violence. He doesn't have the body manipulation that Gore had/has when going through tight spaces, but what he does have is that elite vision to see the hole opening, and then he has the speed to make it through before it closes.

Only a matter of time before he is the lead back in SF. This kid is legit.

This. One thing he has is knowing when to bounce out after hitting the hole.

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by Joecool:
I think Hyde is on his way out. There is no reason to shell out starting RB money and commit to him for even 3 years when he has not shown that he can carry the load, especially when we have a coach who finds RB's deeper in the draft. Knowing this, I think Williams will see more action very soon. And don't forget, Shanny and Lynch had to send a message to him for him to get lit up. That's already a bad sign.

This is Hydes last year in a 49ers uniform regardless of his stats this year. No doubt in my mind. The same reasons people used for why we would not Draft Fournette or a first round RB under shanny, possibly ever, are the same reasons why Hyde will not be resigned.

I think he still has value to this offense. I think one thing was missing in the Atlanta offense in the playoffs last year was a 4 minute offense. You need a big heavy runner that can break arm tackles and get you that one or two yard gain against 5, 6 and 7 man fronts in the fourth quarter while you are trying to put the game away. Wrathman was great at doing that for Walsh, and Hyde is a powerful runner that I think can do that consistently. The other thing missing from Atlanta last year was a pass rush in the 4rth Quarter.

Dont think Joe can be an elite inside runner? Just go to the 24 second mark and have your fears alleviated. That was his best run of the night. Showed great body control, Vision, And speed working through a hole that for 9/10 backs is not there.

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Dont think Joe can be an elite inside runner? Just go to the 24 second mark and have your fears alleviated. That was his best run of the night. Showed great body control, Vision, And speed working through a hole that for 9/10 backs is not there.

Crazy, looks like he had nothing and he squirts out for nearly 10. Also look at the 31 second mark, the DB looks like he has a perfect angle to keep it to a 1 yard gain but Williams out runs the angle to make it 4 yards. 46 second mark with another one up the middle looking like no gain but he still gets 2.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Joe Williams is 5'11 210 pounds.

I still don't see why he is considered a small back. He has very good size for a rookie RB and can easily gain 5 to 10 pounds. He is a 4-down back.

I don't recall size being the knock against him. I think it was his upright running style and inability to create. That's what (for now) keeps him from being a "four down back". He obviously excels outside the tackles. You need that on the team. But you also need somebody who can make it happen between the tackles as well...IF you want to be a four down back.

Frank Gore was 220+ and I like a big back that can take on a DE or a DT hitting him. Joe to me is a smallish back and I'd hate to see him hi-lowed at the LOS and I just hope he has the muscle to hold on to the ball at that time. I guess to me a regular sized back is in the neighborhood of Frank Gore's size (maybe I got spoiled watching the guy take hit after hit and getting up) but that's why I would think Williams is a small back.

Frank Gore is listed anywhere between 211 and 220 pounds on several sites. He's not much bigger than Williams. Here's the size of other 4-down backs:

Emmitt Smith: 5'9, 216
Tomlinson: 5'10, 221
Thurman Thomas: 5'10, 210

Williams is 210 as a rookie. He can easily gain 5 to 10 pounds.

I don't know if I want him to gain weight if he's going to lose that wonderful speed. To me, and again, just in my opinion - big backs are in the neighborhood of 230+ pounds, and good sized fullbacks go up from 240+ (almost tight end size). My biggest worry is can they take a hit. A smaller man getting hit by a bigger man usually is on the losing end. I understand that Williams has a wonderful vision, but on occasion he's get blindsided by a DE or DT that he's not expecting, and that's where a bigger man can take the hit vs a lesser sized man. Also, I think in short yardage situations, a guy that's bigger vs Williams might have a better chance eeking out that 1 or 2 yards needed to get that first down in a four minute offense. In that situation, power is more valuable than speed.

Also at 11 seconds, the LB has a legit angle but ends up not making the tackle with Joe Williams shaking him off because Williams, once again, outran the angle.

Originally posted by Giedi:
My biggest worry is can they take a hit. A smaller man getting hit by a bigger man usually is on the losing end. I understand that Williams has a wonderful vision, but on occasion he's get blindsided by a DE or DT that he's not expecting, and that's where a bigger man can take the hit vs a lesser sized man.

Playing lower and behind your pads > size/strength. Carlos Hyde is a big running back, but he can't take a licking and hold up.

Frank had the lowest center of gravity of any player I've ever seen in the NFL. It almost appeared as if he was leaning forward mid-stride as he moved. That's how low he played.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by okdkid:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Joe Williams is 5'11 210 pounds.

I still don't see why he is considered a small back. He has very good size for a rookie RB and can easily gain 5 to 10 pounds. He is a 4-down back.

I don't recall size being the knock against him. I think it was his upright running style and inability to create. That's what (for now) keeps him from being a "four down back". He obviously excels outside the tackles. You need that on the team. But you also need somebody who can make it happen between the tackles as well...IF you want to be a four down back.

Frank Gore was 220+ and I like a big back that can take on a DE or a DT hitting him. Joe to me is a smallish back and I'd hate to see him hi-lowed at the LOS and I just hope he has the muscle to hold on to the ball at that time. I guess to me a regular sized back is in the neighborhood of Frank Gore's size (maybe I got spoiled watching the guy take hit after hit and getting up) but that's why I would think Williams is a small back.

Frank Gore is listed anywhere between 211 and 220 pounds on several sites. He's not much bigger than Williams. Here's the size of other 4-down backs:

Emmitt Smith: 5'9, 216
Tomlinson: 5'10, 221
Thurman Thomas: 5'10, 210

Williams is 210 as a rookie. He can easily gain 5 to 10 pounds.

I don't know if I want him to gain weight if he's going to lose that wonderful speed. To me, and again, just in my opinion - big backs are in the neighborhood of 230+ pounds, and good sized fullbacks go up from 240+ (almost tight end size). My biggest worry is can they take a hit. A smaller man getting hit by a bigger man usually is on the losing end. I understand that Williams has a wonderful vision, but on occasion he's get blindsided by a DE or DT that he's not expecting, and that's where a bigger man can take the hit vs a lesser sized man. Also, I think in short yardage situations, a guy that's bigger vs Williams might have a better chance eeking out that 1 or 2 yards needed to get that first down in a four minute offense. In that situation, power is more valuable than speed.

Big backs don't last long. Ideal size for an every down back is 210ish to 220ish. Anything bigger than 230 is really not an every down back unless they have receiving skills.

Terrell Davis was 5'11 206

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Dont think Joe can be an elite inside runner? Just go to the 24 second mark and have your fears alleviated. That was his best run of the night. Showed great body control, Vision, And speed working through a hole that for 9/10 backs is not there.

We'll see if he can do that in the regular season against an elite playoff defense with speed to pursue and gang tackle.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Dont think Joe can be an elite inside runner? Just go to the 24 second mark and have your fears alleviated. That was his best run of the night. Showed great body control, Vision, And speed working through a hole that for 9/10 backs is not there.

We'll see if he can do that in the regular season against an elite playoff defense with speed to pursue and gang tackle.

I don't know about that. Success in preseason is usually due to larger holes being created from lack of fundamentals and not because the players are slower. There were 3 runs where he didn't have large holes and still did something positive.