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Who is the best Player in baseball right now?

Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
1) I think its awesome that you have polled the 30 GMs in baseball on which stats they use on a regular basis. Can you get me their email addresses and their cell phones? I would like to talk to them too.

2) You are really getting obnoxious wtith your sabermetrics and that those of that dont buy into them all as the end all for evaluations somehow are outdated and dont know what we are talking about.

3) As to Zobrist having the highest WAR in 2011 and Lawrie having the highest this year. Well I didnt make it up. If the site isnt accurate I suggest you email them and correct them:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_top_ten.shtml


2012
Lawrie (5.0)
Wright (4.7
Trout (4.6)
Votto (4.5)
McCutchen (4.4)

2011
Zobrist (8.5)
Ellsbury (8.0)
Kemp (7.8)
Pedroia (7.8)
Bautista (7.7)
Braun (7.7)
Votto ? I dont know because he wasnt in top 10 and trailed Alex Gordon

Like I have said over and over... Joey Votto is great. Special player. Your claim that he is the best and its not even close is the one statement in this thread that is totally off base. Maybe you need to watch more baseball and not just study Billy Beane's scouting reports.

WAR can be calculated in several ways. Several publications have their own calculation, fangraphs, baseball prospectus, etc.

This is generally the most accepted one:

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0

Anyone who follows baseball stats at all in depth could look at the MLB leaders and tell you exactly the same about the productivity of each. The number of posters in this thread is relatively small so I just happen to be one of the only ones looking at these stats, but thats not the case for the greater baseball world. Read those fangraphs articles, one of the most popular baseball sites out there and uses all kinds of stats.

For what its worth, I have spoken to major league scouts and scouting directors regarding their player analysis, but I'm sure you'll doubt that so no biggie.
[ Edited by IdentityCrisis on Jul 12, 2012 at 9:00 PM ]
Originally posted by IdentityCrisis:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
1) I think its awesome that you have polled the 30 GMs in baseball on which stats they use on a regular basis. Can you get me their email addresses and their cell phones? I would like to talk to them too.

2) You are really getting obnoxious wtith your sabermetrics and that those of that dont buy into them all as the end all for evaluations somehow are outdated and dont know what we are talking about.

3) As to Zobrist having the highest WAR in 2011 and Lawrie having the highest this year. Well I didnt make it up. If the site isnt accurate I suggest you email them and correct them:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_top_ten.shtml


2012
Lawrie (5.0)
Wright (4.7
Trout (4.6)
Votto (4.5)
McCutchen (4.4)

2011
Zobrist (8.5)
Ellsbury (8.0)
Kemp (7.8)
Pedroia (7.8)
Bautista (7.7)
Braun (7.7)
Votto ? I dont know because he wasnt in top 10 and trailed Alex Gordon

Like I have said over and over... Joey Votto is great. Special player. Your claim that he is the best and its not even close is the one statement in this thread that is totally off base. Maybe you need to watch more baseball and not just study Billy Beane's scouting reports.

WAR can be calculated in several ways. Several publications have their own calculation, fangraphs, baseball prospectus, etc.

This is generally the most accepted one:

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2012&month=0&season1=2012&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0

Anyone who follows baseball stats at all in depth could look at the MLB leaders and tell you exactly the same. The number of posters in this thread is relatively small so I just happen to be one of the only ones looking at these stats, but thats not the case for the greater baseball world. Read those fangraphs articles, one of the most popular baseball sites out there and uses all kinds of stats.

For what its worth, I have spoken to major league scouts and scouting directors regarding their player analysis, but I'm sure you'll doubt that so no biggie.

LOL So the site you use is right and Baseball Reference.com ( the one I just showed you) is wrong. How can you be so sure. Do you have several other sites that back this up? Maybe all those scouts you talk to can support this. In any case, using the site that you claim is accurate put Votto 10th for last year and tied with Alex Gordon. This year it has Votto .01 ahead of David Wright but again you claim him to be the best "AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE". That seems pretty damned close to me. Not that WAR is everything. In fact, it isnt.
Votto.
So.. to summarize.. LOL:

Best player right now in 2012 : Josh Hamilton barely ahead of Andrew McCutchen
Best player if completely healthy: Matt Kemp
Player I would take first in any draft of players. Mike Trout

And it isnt even close. Sorry, couldnt resist.
  • ImaMod
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Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
1) I think its awesome that you have polled the 30 GMs in baseball on which stats they use on a regular basis. Can you get me their email addresses and their cell phones? I would like to talk to them too.

2) You are really getting obnoxious wtith your sabermetrics and that those of that dont buy into them all as the end all for evaluations somehow are outdated and dont know what we are talking about.

3) As to Zobrist having the highest WAR in 2011 and Lawrie having the highest this year. Well I didnt make it up. If the site isnt accurate I suggest you email them and correct them:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_top_ten.shtml


2012
Lawrie (5.0)
Wright (4.7
Trout (4.6)
Votto (4.5)
McCutchen (4.4)

2011
Zobrist (8.5)
Ellsbury (8.0)
Kemp (7.8)
Pedroia (7.8)
Bautista (7.7)
Braun (7.7)
Votto ? I dont know because he wasnt in top 10 and trailed Alex Gordon

Like I have said over and over... Joey Votto is great. Special player. Your claim that he is the best and its not even close is the one statement in this thread that is totally off base. Maybe you need to watch more baseball and not just study Billy Beane's scouting reports.

Originally posted by Niners99:
Votto.

this. carry on with your antics John. sorry you're not able to grasp new things, only able to mock them.

and to be clear, I only referenced WAR when McCutchen was brought up to give credit to fielding.. look at wOBA and wRC+ for offensive production which I mentioned earlier. Not that you'd have any idea what those are, but I'm sure you can grasp that one person's is bigger than the other's.
[ Edited by IdentityCrisis on Jul 12, 2012 at 9:51 PM ]
  • ImaMod
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 10,482
Originally posted by IdentityCrisis:
this. carry on with your antics John. sorry you're not able to grasp new things, only able to mock them.

and to be clear, I only referenced WAR when McCutchen was brought up to give credit to fielding.. look at wOBA and wRC+ for offensive production which I mentioned earlier. Not that you'd have any idea what those are, but I'm sure you can grasp that one person's is bigger than the other's.

lol seriously, what do those even mean?
Originally posted by IdentityCrisis:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Votto.

this. carry on with your antics John. sorry you're not able to grasp new things, only able to mock them.

My antics? LOL. Yes Identity. We know you are the only one so smart to understand these really difficult sabermetrics and the baseball guru in here.
You think WAR is the end all so I simply provided a reputable site that showed Brett Lawrie was the tops in 2012 and Ben Zobrist was in 2011. Either site showed Votto to be 10th or so last year. I am sorry you didnt like the site I showed.

You made a ridiculous post about Votto. If you just put.. I think Joey Votto is the best player in baseball and left it at that I would have never even commented. But when you said .. it isnt even close like he was Barry Bonds in his prime.. well so wrong its beyond words.

By the way, I know Niners99 thinks Votto is the best. He has told me that in the past. Notice he didnt say it wasnt even close though.
Originally posted by ImaMod:
Originally posted by IdentityCrisis:
this. carry on with your antics John. sorry you're not able to grasp new things, only able to mock them.

and to be clear, I only referenced WAR when McCutchen was brought up to give credit to fielding.. look at wOBA and wRC+ for offensive production which I mentioned earlier. Not that you'd have any idea what those are, but I'm sure you can grasp that one person's is bigger than the other's.

lol seriously, what do those even mean?

Weighted On Base and Runs Created. Maybe the Sabermetric Geek can explain it. Im sure its all over our heads and only he can comprehend. I know he would fire Bochy because he doesnt use WOBA to determine lineups. LOL
[ Edited by Ninerjohn on Jul 12, 2012 at 10:09 PM ]
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by ImaMod:
Originally posted by IdentityCrisis:
this. carry on with your antics John. sorry you're not able to grasp new things, only able to mock them.

and to be clear, I only referenced WAR when McCutchen was brought up to give credit to fielding.. look at wOBA and wRC+ for offensive production which I mentioned earlier. Not that you'd have any idea what those are, but I'm sure you can grasp that one person's is bigger than the other's.

lol seriously, what do those even mean?

Weighted On Base and Runs Created. Maybe the Sabermetric Geek can explain it. Im sure its all over our heads and only he can comprehend.

If you took the time to read on them and understand what they entail, you wouldn't give me so much grief over their strong indication of run production.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/offense/woba/
http://www.fangraphs.com/library/index.php/offense/wrc/

And no John, WAR isn't one of my favorites, I just mentioned it when I was discussing defense with Jigga. Defense is actually a very difficult thing to quantify. The two listed above are the strongest indicators of offensive production and in those catagories, its not even close thus far this year...
[ Edited by IdentityCrisis on Jul 12, 2012 at 10:10 PM ]
Marvin Benard
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by IdentityCrisis:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Votto.

this. carry on with your antics John. sorry you're not able to grasp new things, only able to mock them.

My antics? LOL. Yes Identity. We know you are the only one so smart to understand these really difficult sabermetrics and the baseball guru in here.
You think WAR is the end all so I simply provided a reputable site that showed Brett Lawrie was the tops in 2012 and Ben Zobrist was in 2011. Either site showed Votto to be 10th or so last year. I am sorry you didnt like the site I showed.

You made a ridiculous post about Votto. If you just put.. I think Joey Votto is the best player in baseball and left it at that I would have never even commented. But when you said .. it isnt even close like he was Barry Bonds in his prime.. well so wrong its beyond words.

By the way, I know Niners99 thinks Votto is the best. He has told me that in the past. Notice he didnt say it wasnt even close though.


Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by IdentityCrisis:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Votto.

this. carry on with your antics John. sorry you're not able to grasp new things, only able to mock them.

My antics? LOL. Yes Identity. We know you are the only one so smart to understand these really difficult sabermetrics and the baseball guru in here.
You think WAR is the end all so I simply provided a reputable site that showed Brett Lawrie was the tops in 2012 and Ben Zobrist was in 2011. Either site showed Votto to be 10th or so last year. I am sorry you didnt like the site I showed.

You made a ridiculous post about Votto. If you just put.. I think Joey Votto is the best player in baseball and left it at that I would have never even commented. But when you said .. it isnt even close like he was Barry Bonds in his prime.. well so wrong its beyond words.

By the way, I know Niners99 thinks Votto is the best. He has told me that in the past. Notice he didnt say it wasnt even close though.

This...

It just comes off as condescending to state something as fact like "it isn't even close" when in fact there are valid arguments for many players. Those of us who don't use sabremetrics like you do have valid opinions and being dismissive doesn't serve you well.
  • Garcia
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Everyone knows the best sabermetrics provided by
Vinny Sutherland
John, to be fair fangraphs is literally the standard for Sabermetrics as it basically takes every single calculation that Bill James has ever conceived and tied it into their website (fWAR is a slight derision). They're also the only site that's allowed to post his projections from his handbook if I remember correctly. They're far and beyond the best source of information like that, so I'd say you should probably go off those numbers. Basically, fWAR's offensive rating is the same for all players (wOBA), whereas rWAR's varies based on the quality of the player's teams' offense, which is why Fangraphs' is more generally accepted in my opinion.

No one's saying their word should be taken for gospel, but to not delve into things other than BA, HR's and RBI's to determine how good a player is, is just silly in this day and age. There's a reason this guy has been working with the Red Sox for the last 10+ years and it's because a lot of his philosophies ring true. WAR is definitely an important stat when determining the success/value of a player, but not the end-all-be-all.