There are 426 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Is D.Jeter the greatest Yankee of all time?

Originally posted by jrg:

I agree. Next thing we will hear is that Ozzie Smith was better than Jeter!
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by jrg:

I agree. Next thing we will hear is that Ozzie Smith was better than Jeter!

Ozzie Smith was a bad ass..don't dis "The Wizard"




11 pages guys?

really?

REALLY?

Originally posted by vrabbit:
11 pages guys?

really?

REALLY?


11 pages guys?!

Originally posted by vrabbit:
11 pages guys?

really?

REALLY?


Yes, but like 8 of them were on Michael Young and Juan Gone
babe ruth. Period.

has a higher all time batting average. won 93 games as a pitcher, and had an overall era right around 2.00. Not too mention dude needed 2,500 less at bats than hank aaron to hit just 40 less homers.

hmmm....
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

um, Indians had Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker...and Bob Feller is one of the greatest pitchers ever to play. plus theres Addie Joss and Bob Lemon. Jeter wouldnt be a top 5 HOF on the Indians...

Roberto Alomar is in the hall as a Blue Jay

Joe Morgan for the Astros (he wears a Reds cap, but player more years in HOU)

Gwynn is better for SD

most of the teams listed are newer franchises, so saying Jeter would be the best Marlin ever is a pointless argument.

I'll give you Cleveland because of Feller and Speaker. Joe Morgan in Houston is a joke and you know that. He wasnt close to HOF when he played there. Alomar, Jeter, and Gwynn are all close.

i was looking at total career stats mainly. obviously Morgans Astros ONLY stats arent that great. i was under the impression we were talking about total careers, with the team they played with the longest representing them.

Cleveland was obvious. Lajoie and Speaker are WAY ahead of Jeter. Nap Lajoie was so good, the Indians changed their team name to the "Cleveland Naps" for 12 years.

I know youre looking past the stats with Jeter, and you really like the way he plays the game and the image he presents, but you have to admit he does get overhyped because of the New York media. women find him attractive, he plays a scarce position for hitting production, he came up with the most popular and covered team in baseball, a team with the most history-laden past, and was very good both offensively and defensively. he had ALOT of things going for him.

throw in some clutch postseason moments, and hes a baseball hero to alot of New York fans. I just dont believe hes as good or as important as hes projected to be overall.

I keep going back to Paul Molitor. they hit around the same for avg, theyre going to end up with around the same amount of hits, similar OB% range, almost identical HR numbers, almost the same RBIs, similar walks, Molitor has a ton more doubles, Molitor finished 2nd for ROY, Jeter won ROY, Molitor finished top 5 in MVP voting twice, Jeter 3 times, neither ever won, both 4 time silver sluggers, etc, etc.

theyre SO similar statistically, yet one of them played for 3 small market teams (MIL, TOR, MIN) and the other played his entire career for the biggest market team in the world. one of them got to play in the playoffs 3 times, the other got to play 14 times. both did well in their chances in the postseason.

Jeter had a great glove, but Molitor wasnt terrible at 3B. same career fielding % as George Brett.

but somehow Derek Jeter is this Yankee legend, and Paul Molitor is a pedestrian HOF entree that people kind of give a golf clap for. Jeter gets such a HUGE public advantage from being a New York Yankee, and stepping up in the playoffs FOR the Yankees. hes got an image you can only gain in the New York spotlight.

and i cant remember who brought it up, but in 600 career postseason AB's, basically a full season of baseball, Jeter had a nice seasons worth of stats, but not jaw dropping. reminds me a bit of Randy Winn's time here with the Giants...

Randy Winn 2005 season Mariners/Giants:

617 AB's, 189 hits, .306 avg, 20 HR, 63 RBI's, 47 2B, 85 R, 19 SB, .360 OB% 91 k

Jeter's postseason stats:

599 AB's, 185 hits, .309 avg, 20 HR, 57 RBI's, 30 2B, 101 R, 17 SB, .377 OB%, 117 k

what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits, but his postseason resume as a whole isnt as impressive as the common fan is instructed to think.

Now you are comparing stats from Randy Winn to Derek Jeter? Winn's stats with losing teams with NO pressure versus Jeter on the biggest stage? I'm sure you can find even more obscure players that had a solid year for a last place team that has stats even better. What does that prove anyway?

Comparing one year of a player to a HOF player's post season stats can be so misleading. Compare these:

Reggie Jackson Post Season:
77 games
OPS .885
HR 18
rbi 48

Adam Lind 2009
151 games
OPS .932
HR 35
rbi 114

Clearly Lind's numbes are better yet no one in their right mind would EVER compare Reggie to Adam Lind. Doing great things on the biggest stage in the biggest city is MUCH more difficult.

As for Molitor.. I think he was a fine hitter who deserves being in the HOF. However, in no way do I think he is the equal of Jeter. Playing in Toronto, Milwaukee, and Minnesota is much easier than NY. There are so many players that failed big time when they got to the Big Apple. He also played an easier position and was a DH for over 40% of his games played.

Jeter may be overhyped. That is a FAR different thing from being overrated.

first of all, right under where i listed Jeters postseason stats and Winn's 2005 stats, i stated "what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits in the playoffs". i understand the difference between New York pressure and what Winn did.

I was pointing out that through a seasons worth of AB's in the playoffs, his totals were very good, but not legendary. and i think youre overselling the whole "New York pressure" thing. theres more media on you, yes, but its not like he was the only guy on the Yankees. they all shared the burden. he came up with the team, and all those famous 90's Yankees, so its really nothing like the pressure that a big name f/a who get paid mega bucks to play in NY has to deal with.

when A-Rod, Teixeira, CC, Pavano, Burnett, etc get huge deals to be a Yankee, theyre expected to be great in the playoffs, or everyone is going to be extremely upset. thats pressure. Jeter was a fan favorite from the start. he got paid 130,000 the first year they won, 750,000 the 2nd time they won, and 5 mil the 3rd time they won. he was already a 3 time champion and hero before he was making any kind of pressure money.

Im not trying to take away all hes done, but the stats say Paul Molitor and Derek Jeter had similar careers. Jeter has a better glove. just because Jeter came up with the Yankees doesnt make me want to give him all this extra credit. almost every HOF player wouldve stepped up their game in the playoffs, especially if they got to play there every single season of their career. its not like Jeter is the only player of his caliber who couldve gotten big hits in October for the Yankees.

I give Jeter credit for his career offensive stats, his time of being a great fielding SS, and his postseason heroics. but i stop there. his stats were what they were, his glove was what it was, and he came up big for his team in the playoffs. im not giving him extra credit because he got to play in the playoffs in 14 years. thats purely a Yankee privilege. its insulting to other HOF players to call what he did in his career "better" just because he had the opportunities.

If Ernie Banks was a Yankee, and got 10+ playoff seasons, he wouldve done well in them, won some titles, and his hype would be alot higher. its the Yankee advantage. players who play for the Yankees have more opportunities than players who dont historically. when the NY media is watching everything you do, the great players become legends, and the bad players get booed out of town.

The sexual tension between you two is overwhelming. It's like watching Moonlighting.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

um, Indians had Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker...and Bob Feller is one of the greatest pitchers ever to play. plus theres Addie Joss and Bob Lemon. Jeter wouldnt be a top 5 HOF on the Indians...

Roberto Alomar is in the hall as a Blue Jay

Joe Morgan for the Astros (he wears a Reds cap, but player more years in HOU)

Gwynn is better for SD

most of the teams listed are newer franchises, so saying Jeter would be the best Marlin ever is a pointless argument.

I'll give you Cleveland because of Feller and Speaker. Joe Morgan in Houston is a joke and you know that. He wasnt close to HOF when he played there. Alomar, Jeter, and Gwynn are all close.

i was looking at total career stats mainly. obviously Morgans Astros ONLY stats arent that great. i was under the impression we were talking about total careers, with the team they played with the longest representing them.

Cleveland was obvious. Lajoie and Speaker are WAY ahead of Jeter. Nap Lajoie was so good, the Indians changed their team name to the "Cleveland Naps" for 12 years.

I know youre looking past the stats with Jeter, and you really like the way he plays the game and the image he presents, but you have to admit he does get overhyped because of the New York media. women find him attractive, he plays a scarce position for hitting production, he came up with the most popular and covered team in baseball, a team with the most history-laden past, and was very good both offensively and defensively. he had ALOT of things going for him.

throw in some clutch postseason moments, and hes a baseball hero to alot of New York fans. I just dont believe hes as good or as important as hes projected to be overall.

I keep going back to Paul Molitor. they hit around the same for avg, theyre going to end up with around the same amount of hits, similar OB% range, almost identical HR numbers, almost the same RBIs, similar walks, Molitor has a ton more doubles, Molitor finished 2nd for ROY, Jeter won ROY, Molitor finished top 5 in MVP voting twice, Jeter 3 times, neither ever won, both 4 time silver sluggers, etc, etc.

theyre SO similar statistically, yet one of them played for 3 small market teams (MIL, TOR, MIN) and the other played his entire career for the biggest market team in the world. one of them got to play in the playoffs 3 times, the other got to play 14 times. both did well in their chances in the postseason.

Jeter had a great glove, but Molitor wasnt terrible at 3B. same career fielding % as George Brett.

but somehow Derek Jeter is this Yankee legend, and Paul Molitor is a pedestrian HOF entree that people kind of give a golf clap for. Jeter gets such a HUGE public advantage from being a New York Yankee, and stepping up in the playoffs FOR the Yankees. hes got an image you can only gain in the New York spotlight.

and i cant remember who brought it up, but in 600 career postseason AB's, basically a full season of baseball, Jeter had a nice seasons worth of stats, but not jaw dropping. reminds me a bit of Randy Winn's time here with the Giants...

Randy Winn 2005 season Mariners/Giants:

617 AB's, 189 hits, .306 avg, 20 HR, 63 RBI's, 47 2B, 85 R, 19 SB, .360 OB% 91 k

Jeter's postseason stats:

599 AB's, 185 hits, .309 avg, 20 HR, 57 RBI's, 30 2B, 101 R, 17 SB, .377 OB%, 117 k

what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits, but his postseason resume as a whole isnt as impressive as the common fan is instructed to think.

Now you are comparing stats from Randy Winn to Derek Jeter? Winn's stats with losing teams with NO pressure versus Jeter on the biggest stage? I'm sure you can find even more obscure players that had a solid year for a last place team that has stats even better. What does that prove anyway?

Comparing one year of a player to a HOF player's post season stats can be so misleading. Compare these:

Reggie Jackson Post Season:
77 games
OPS .885
HR 18
rbi 48

Adam Lind 2009
151 games
OPS .932
HR 35
rbi 114

Clearly Lind's numbes are better yet no one in their right mind would EVER compare Reggie to Adam Lind. Doing great things on the biggest stage in the biggest city is MUCH more difficult.

As for Molitor.. I think he was a fine hitter who deserves being in the HOF. However, in no way do I think he is the equal of Jeter. Playing in Toronto, Milwaukee, and Minnesota is much easier than NY. There are so many players that failed big time when they got to the Big Apple. He also played an easier position and was a DH for over 40% of his games played.

Jeter may be overhyped. That is a FAR different thing from being overrated.

first of all, right under where i listed Jeters postseason stats and Winn's 2005 stats, i stated "what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits in the playoffs". i understand the difference between New York pressure and what Winn did.

I was pointing out that through a seasons worth of AB's in the playoffs, his totals were very good, but not legendary. and i think youre overselling the whole "New York pressure" thing. theres more media on you, yes, but its not like he was the only guy on the Yankees. they all shared the burden. he came up with the team, and all those famous 90's Yankees, so its really nothing like the pressure that a big name f/a who get paid mega bucks to play in NY has to deal with.

when A-Rod, Teixeira, CC, Pavano, Burnett, etc get huge deals to be a Yankee, theyre expected to be great in the playoffs, or everyone is going to be extremely upset. thats pressure. Jeter was a fan favorite from the start. he got paid 130,000 the first year they won, 750,000 the 2nd time they won, and 5 mil the 3rd time they won. he was already a 3 time champion and hero before he was making any kind of pressure money.

Im not trying to take away all hes done, but the stats say Paul Molitor and Derek Jeter had similar careers. Jeter has a better glove. just because Jeter came up with the Yankees doesnt make me want to give him all this extra credit. almost every HOF player wouldve stepped up their game in the playoffs, especially if they got to play there every single season of their career. its not like Jeter is the only player of his caliber who couldve gotten big hits in October for the Yankees.

I give Jeter credit for his career offensive stats, his time of being a great fielding SS, and his postseason heroics. but i stop there. his stats were what they were, his glove was what it was, and he came up big for his team in the playoffs. im not giving him extra credit because he got to play in the playoffs in 14 years. thats purely a Yankee privilege. its insulting to other HOF players to call what he did in his career "better" just because he had the opportunities.

If Ernie Banks was a Yankee, and got 10+ playoff seasons, he wouldve done well in them, won some titles, and his hype would be alot higher. its the Yankee advantage. players who play for the Yankees have more opportunities than players who dont historically. when the NY media is watching everything you do, the great players become legends, and the bad players get booed out of town.

The sexual tension between you two is overwhelming. It's like watching Moonlighting.

.........aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannndddddd here comes 17 more pages
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

um, Indians had Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker...and Bob Feller is one of the greatest pitchers ever to play. plus theres Addie Joss and Bob Lemon. Jeter wouldnt be a top 5 HOF on the Indians...

Roberto Alomar is in the hall as a Blue Jay

Joe Morgan for the Astros (he wears a Reds cap, but player more years in HOU)

Gwynn is better for SD

most of the teams listed are newer franchises, so saying Jeter would be the best Marlin ever is a pointless argument.

I'll give you Cleveland because of Feller and Speaker. Joe Morgan in Houston is a joke and you know that. He wasnt close to HOF when he played there. Alomar, Jeter, and Gwynn are all close.

i was looking at total career stats mainly. obviously Morgans Astros ONLY stats arent that great. i was under the impression we were talking about total careers, with the team they played with the longest representing them.

Cleveland was obvious. Lajoie and Speaker are WAY ahead of Jeter. Nap Lajoie was so good, the Indians changed their team name to the "Cleveland Naps" for 12 years.

I know youre looking past the stats with Jeter, and you really like the way he plays the game and the image he presents, but you have to admit he does get overhyped because of the New York media. women find him attractive, he plays a scarce position for hitting production, he came up with the most popular and covered team in baseball, a team with the most history-laden past, and was very good both offensively and defensively. he had ALOT of things going for him.

throw in some clutch postseason moments, and hes a baseball hero to alot of New York fans. I just dont believe hes as good or as important as hes projected to be overall.

I keep going back to Paul Molitor. they hit around the same for avg, theyre going to end up with around the same amount of hits, similar OB% range, almost identical HR numbers, almost the same RBIs, similar walks, Molitor has a ton more doubles, Molitor finished 2nd for ROY, Jeter won ROY, Molitor finished top 5 in MVP voting twice, Jeter 3 times, neither ever won, both 4 time silver sluggers, etc, etc.

theyre SO similar statistically, yet one of them played for 3 small market teams (MIL, TOR, MIN) and the other played his entire career for the biggest market team in the world. one of them got to play in the playoffs 3 times, the other got to play 14 times. both did well in their chances in the postseason.

Jeter had a great glove, but Molitor wasnt terrible at 3B. same career fielding % as George Brett.

but somehow Derek Jeter is this Yankee legend, and Paul Molitor is a pedestrian HOF entree that people kind of give a golf clap for. Jeter gets such a HUGE public advantage from being a New York Yankee, and stepping up in the playoffs FOR the Yankees. hes got an image you can only gain in the New York spotlight.

and i cant remember who brought it up, but in 600 career postseason AB's, basically a full season of baseball, Jeter had a nice seasons worth of stats, but not jaw dropping. reminds me a bit of Randy Winn's time here with the Giants...

Randy Winn 2005 season Mariners/Giants:

617 AB's, 189 hits, .306 avg, 20 HR, 63 RBI's, 47 2B, 85 R, 19 SB, .360 OB% 91 k

Jeter's postseason stats:

599 AB's, 185 hits, .309 avg, 20 HR, 57 RBI's, 30 2B, 101 R, 17 SB, .377 OB%, 117 k

what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits, but his postseason resume as a whole isnt as impressive as the common fan is instructed to think.

Now you are comparing stats from Randy Winn to Derek Jeter? Winn's stats with losing teams with NO pressure versus Jeter on the biggest stage? I'm sure you can find even more obscure players that had a solid year for a last place team that has stats even better. What does that prove anyway?

Comparing one year of a player to a HOF player's post season stats can be so misleading. Compare these:

Reggie Jackson Post Season:
77 games
OPS .885
HR 18
rbi 48

Adam Lind 2009
151 games
OPS .932
HR 35
rbi 114

Clearly Lind's numbes are better yet no one in their right mind would EVER compare Reggie to Adam Lind. Doing great things on the biggest stage in the biggest city is MUCH more difficult.

As for Molitor.. I think he was a fine hitter who deserves being in the HOF. However, in no way do I think he is the equal of Jeter. Playing in Toronto, Milwaukee, and Minnesota is much easier than NY. There are so many players that failed big time when they got to the Big Apple. He also played an easier position and was a DH for over 40% of his games played.

Jeter may be overhyped. That is a FAR different thing from being overrated.

first of all, right under where i listed Jeters postseason stats and Winn's 2005 stats, i stated "what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits in the playoffs". i understand the difference between New York pressure and what Winn did.

I was pointing out that through a seasons worth of AB's in the playoffs, his totals were very good, but not legendary. and i think youre overselling the whole "New York pressure" thing. theres more media on you, yes, but its not like he was the only guy on the Yankees. they all shared the burden. he came up with the team, and all those famous 90's Yankees, so its really nothing like the pressure that a big name f/a who get paid mega bucks to play in NY has to deal with.

when A-Rod, Teixeira, CC, Pavano, Burnett, etc get huge deals to be a Yankee, theyre expected to be great in the playoffs, or everyone is going to be extremely upset. thats pressure. Jeter was a fan favorite from the start. he got paid 130,000 the first year they won, 750,000 the 2nd time they won, and 5 mil the 3rd time they won. he was already a 3 time champion and hero before he was making any kind of pressure money.

Im not trying to take away all hes done, but the stats say Paul Molitor and Derek Jeter had similar careers. Jeter has a better glove. just because Jeter came up with the Yankees doesnt make me want to give him all this extra credit. almost every HOF player wouldve stepped up their game in the playoffs, especially if they got to play there every single season of their career. its not like Jeter is the only player of his caliber who couldve gotten big hits in October for the Yankees.

I give Jeter credit for his career offensive stats, his time of being a great fielding SS, and his postseason heroics. but i stop there. his stats were what they were, his glove was what it was, and he came up big for his team in the playoffs. im not giving him extra credit because he got to play in the playoffs in 14 years. thats purely a Yankee privilege. its insulting to other HOF players to call what he did in his career "better" just because he had the opportunities.

If Ernie Banks was a Yankee, and got 10+ playoff seasons, he wouldve done well in them, won some titles, and his hype would be alot higher. its the Yankee advantage. players who play for the Yankees have more opportunities than players who dont historically. when the NY media is watching everything you do, the great players become legends, and the bad players get booed out of town.

The sexual tension between you two is overwhelming. It's like watching Moonlighting.



Bonus: Because of age, 90% of the people that read this joke did this

Originally posted by IWASATTHECATCH:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

um, Indians had Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker...and Bob Feller is one of the greatest pitchers ever to play. plus theres Addie Joss and Bob Lemon. Jeter wouldnt be a top 5 HOF on the Indians...

Roberto Alomar is in the hall as a Blue Jay

Joe Morgan for the Astros (he wears a Reds cap, but player more years in HOU)

Gwynn is better for SD

most of the teams listed are newer franchises, so saying Jeter would be the best Marlin ever is a pointless argument.

I'll give you Cleveland because of Feller and Speaker. Joe Morgan in Houston is a joke and you know that. He wasnt close to HOF when he played there. Alomar, Jeter, and Gwynn are all close.

i was looking at total career stats mainly. obviously Morgans Astros ONLY stats arent that great. i was under the impression we were talking about total careers, with the team they played with the longest representing them.

Cleveland was obvious. Lajoie and Speaker are WAY ahead of Jeter. Nap Lajoie was so good, the Indians changed their team name to the "Cleveland Naps" for 12 years.

I know youre looking past the stats with Jeter, and you really like the way he plays the game and the image he presents, but you have to admit he does get overhyped because of the New York media. women find him attractive, he plays a scarce position for hitting production, he came up with the most popular and covered team in baseball, a team with the most history-laden past, and was very good both offensively and defensively. he had ALOT of things going for him.

throw in some clutch postseason moments, and hes a baseball hero to alot of New York fans. I just dont believe hes as good or as important as hes projected to be overall.

I keep going back to Paul Molitor. they hit around the same for avg, theyre going to end up with around the same amount of hits, similar OB% range, almost identical HR numbers, almost the same RBIs, similar walks, Molitor has a ton more doubles, Molitor finished 2nd for ROY, Jeter won ROY, Molitor finished top 5 in MVP voting twice, Jeter 3 times, neither ever won, both 4 time silver sluggers, etc, etc.

theyre SO similar statistically, yet one of them played for 3 small market teams (MIL, TOR, MIN) and the other played his entire career for the biggest market team in the world. one of them got to play in the playoffs 3 times, the other got to play 14 times. both did well in their chances in the postseason.

Jeter had a great glove, but Molitor wasnt terrible at 3B. same career fielding % as George Brett.

but somehow Derek Jeter is this Yankee legend, and Paul Molitor is a pedestrian HOF entree that people kind of give a golf clap for. Jeter gets such a HUGE public advantage from being a New York Yankee, and stepping up in the playoffs FOR the Yankees. hes got an image you can only gain in the New York spotlight.

and i cant remember who brought it up, but in 600 career postseason AB's, basically a full season of baseball, Jeter had a nice seasons worth of stats, but not jaw dropping. reminds me a bit of Randy Winn's time here with the Giants...

Randy Winn 2005 season Mariners/Giants:

617 AB's, 189 hits, .306 avg, 20 HR, 63 RBI's, 47 2B, 85 R, 19 SB, .360 OB% 91 k

Jeter's postseason stats:

599 AB's, 185 hits, .309 avg, 20 HR, 57 RBI's, 30 2B, 101 R, 17 SB, .377 OB%, 117 k

what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits, but his postseason resume as a whole isnt as impressive as the common fan is instructed to think.

Now you are comparing stats from Randy Winn to Derek Jeter? Winn's stats with losing teams with NO pressure versus Jeter on the biggest stage? I'm sure you can find even more obscure players that had a solid year for a last place team that has stats even better. What does that prove anyway?

Comparing one year of a player to a HOF player's post season stats can be so misleading. Compare these:

Reggie Jackson Post Season:
77 games
OPS .885
HR 18
rbi 48

Adam Lind 2009
151 games
OPS .932
HR 35
rbi 114

Clearly Lind's numbes are better yet no one in their right mind would EVER compare Reggie to Adam Lind. Doing great things on the biggest stage in the biggest city is MUCH more difficult.

As for Molitor.. I think he was a fine hitter who deserves being in the HOF. However, in no way do I think he is the equal of Jeter. Playing in Toronto, Milwaukee, and Minnesota is much easier than NY. There are so many players that failed big time when they got to the Big Apple. He also played an easier position and was a DH for over 40% of his games played.

Jeter may be overhyped. That is a FAR different thing from being overrated.

first of all, right under where i listed Jeters postseason stats and Winn's 2005 stats, i stated "what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits in the playoffs". i understand the difference between New York pressure and what Winn did.

I was pointing out that through a seasons worth of AB's in the playoffs, his totals were very good, but not legendary. and i think youre overselling the whole "New York pressure" thing. theres more media on you, yes, but its not like he was the only guy on the Yankees. they all shared the burden. he came up with the team, and all those famous 90's Yankees, so its really nothing like the pressure that a big name f/a who get paid mega bucks to play in NY has to deal with.

when A-Rod, Teixeira, CC, Pavano, Burnett, etc get huge deals to be a Yankee, theyre expected to be great in the playoffs, or everyone is going to be extremely upset. thats pressure. Jeter was a fan favorite from the start. he got paid 130,000 the first year they won, 750,000 the 2nd time they won, and 5 mil the 3rd time they won. he was already a 3 time champion and hero before he was making any kind of pressure money.

Im not trying to take away all hes done, but the stats say Paul Molitor and Derek Jeter had similar careers. Jeter has a better glove. just because Jeter came up with the Yankees doesnt make me want to give him all this extra credit. almost every HOF player wouldve stepped up their game in the playoffs, especially if they got to play there every single season of their career. its not like Jeter is the only player of his caliber who couldve gotten big hits in October for the Yankees.

I give Jeter credit for his career offensive stats, his time of being a great fielding SS, and his postseason heroics. but i stop there. his stats were what they were, his glove was what it was, and he came up big for his team in the playoffs. im not giving him extra credit because he got to play in the playoffs in 14 years. thats purely a Yankee privilege. its insulting to other HOF players to call what he did in his career "better" just because he had the opportunities.

If Ernie Banks was a Yankee, and got 10+ playoff seasons, he wouldve done well in them, won some titles, and his hype would be alot higher. its the Yankee advantage. players who play for the Yankees have more opportunities than players who dont historically. when the NY media is watching everything you do, the great players become legends, and the bad players get booed out of town.

The sexual tension between you two is overwhelming. It's like watching Moonlighting.



Bonus: Because of age, 90% of the people that read this joke did this


This thread went on a long break. I remember watching that show growing up but I couldn't tell you what it was about. Have no idea if Bruce was a Cop or a Reporter or what. Only remember thinking that Bruce was dating a chick(Cybill) that looked twice his age.
Originally posted by Niners99:
Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Ford, Jackson, Etc.

This thread is the best example of how overrrated Derek Jeter really is. The fact that anyone would ask this question amazes me.

THIS
Dimaggio......he has a record that will never.....let me repeat that NEVER be broken......56 game hitting streak.....please.....end thread.....
sorry, repost

[ Edited by andes14 on Aug 4, 2011 at 01:50:55 ]
sorry, repost

[ Edited by andes14 on Aug 4, 2011 at 01:51:14 ]
One more thing just about the Juan Gonzalez vs. Derek Jeter "debate", I stumbled across a stat, secondary average, that I believe is the best, most telling statistic out there (I used to think a combo of slugging %, BB, and I guess how good of a baserunner you are was the best way to take everything into account, but this kinda compounds it all into one). Here is the formula:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_average

Jeter's career SecA is .263...Gonzalez' is .336...Jeter has topped .300 in just 2 seasons, Gonzalez did so in 9 seasons, even breaking .400...in case that's too harsh because it doesn't weight singles as much and a higher % of Jeter's hits were singles than most players, even if you remove the subtracting hits part from the formula, Gonzalez still has the edge .631 to .575. Keep in mind this stat takes into account and gives due credit for aspects of the game that Jeter was definitely better at, such as drawing walks & stealing bases, and Gonzalez still is significantly superior in the statistic.

[ Edited by andes14 on Aug 4, 2011 at 01:58:55 ]