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Lebron vs. Jordan

Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
The tremendous disconnect between the opinion of fans/media and the opinion of NBA talent evaluators/contributors as it relates to Kobe Bryant is greater than any player I've ever seen in any sport. NBA folks, as recently as the beginning of this year picked Kobe as the best player in the league. And you know what? It wasn't even close. More than twice as many votes as the #2 player, LeBron James. Same was true last year.

There's a direct correlation between how much you know about basketball and how much you appreciate Kobe Bryant's game. Some of the conversation on here on this topic is f**kin' ridiculous.

Yes it's merely hypothetical, but I'd bet good money if Wade, LBJ, and the other superstars of the NBA had the good fortune of playing the last 15 years surrounded by the talent Kobe has had, and thus accumulated the jewelry that Kobe has, that vote would be different. After all, the jobs of the talent evaluators, GM's, etc. is to build championship winning teams so of course their judgement is gonna be weighted to the guys that have won. Do you think that vote would look the same if LBJ played for LAL the past 8 years and Kobe wasted away in Cleveland?

If someone can objectively/statistically explain how there is NO chance Wade is better than Kobe, WITHOUT POINTING OUT RINGS (since supporting casts have just a wee bit of influence on rings), I'm all ears. I mean, like I said, Wade also has better POSTSEASON numbers than Kobe...

Don't forget Kobe's first three seasons (right out of HS) skew his reg season and playoff numbers. Take those away, and he would be statistically better than Wade. Also, Kobe averaged 30+ in 4 playoff seasons. Wades only done it once.

Even still, even Kobe's most efficient season is surpassed by nearly ALL of Wade's seasons. Coming out of high school does nothing to skew that.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
The tremendous disconnect between the opinion of fans/media and the opinion of NBA talent evaluators/contributors as it relates to Kobe Bryant is greater than any player I've ever seen in any sport. NBA folks, as recently as the beginning of this year picked Kobe as the best player in the league. And you know what? It wasn't even close. More than twice as many votes as the #2 player, LeBron James. Same was true last year.

There's a direct correlation between how much you know about basketball and how much you appreciate Kobe Bryant's game. Some of the conversation on here on this topic is f**kin' ridiculous.

Yes it's merely hypothetical, but I'd bet good money if Wade, LBJ, and the other superstars of the NBA had the good fortune of playing the last 15 years surrounded by the talent Kobe has had, and thus accumulated the jewelry that Kobe has, that vote would be different. After all, the jobs of the talent evaluators, GM's, etc. is to build championship winning teams so of course their judgement is gonna be naturally favorable to the guys that have won. Do you think that vote would look the same if LBJ played for LAL the past 8 years and Kobe wasted away in Cleveland?

If someone can objectively/statistically explain how there is NO chance Wade is better than Kobe, WITHOUT POINTING OUT RINGS (since supporting casts have just a wee bit of influence on rings), I'm all ears. I mean, like I said, Wade also has better POSTSEASON numbers than Kobe...

There are only 3 guys in that Top 10 that have won a title...Kobe, Wade, & Gasol. Your statement simply isn't true. They're talent evaluators that are capable of separating individual ability from team accomplishments.

If you're going to put as much weight into raw numbers as you do, at least normalize the statistics to accurately reflect circumstances. Wade's spent much of his career as the #1 option with little else around him. When Kobe was in that situation, his statistics were even more gaudy. Kobe was the first guard ever drafted straight out of HS, and was brought along slowly as a result. He didn't even start his first two years. Totally different situation for Wade, as Amir pointed out.

Regarding efficiency...what exactly is the difference between a 57.01% TS% shooter (Wade) and a 54.24% (Bryant...not adjusted for first two years)? What's that...one play a game?

Shooting percentage is so over-emphasized. We're talking the difference of one play in a 200 possession game.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
The tremendous disconnect between the opinion of fans/media and the opinion of NBA talent evaluators/contributors as it relates to Kobe Bryant is greater than any player I've ever seen in any sport. NBA folks, as recently as the beginning of this year picked Kobe as the best player in the league. And you know what? It wasn't even close. More than twice as many votes as the #2 player, LeBron James. Same was true last year.

There's a direct correlation between how much you know about basketball and how much you appreciate Kobe Bryant's game. Some of the conversation on here on this topic is f**kin' ridiculous.

Yes it's merely hypothetical, but I'd bet good money if Wade, LBJ, and the other superstars of the NBA had the good fortune of playing the last 15 years surrounded by the talent Kobe has had, and thus accumulated the jewelry that Kobe has, that vote would be different. After all, the jobs of the talent evaluators, GM's, etc. is to build championship winning teams so of course their judgement is gonna be naturally favorable to the guys that have won. Do you think that vote would look the same if LBJ played for LAL the past 8 years and Kobe wasted away in Cleveland?

If someone can objectively/statistically explain how there is NO chance Wade is better than Kobe, WITHOUT POINTING OUT RINGS (since supporting casts have just a wee bit of influence on rings), I'm all ears. I mean, like I said, Wade also has better POSTSEASON numbers than Kobe...

There are only 3 guys in that Top 10 that have won a title...Kobe, Wade, & Gasol. Your statement simply isn't true. They're talent evaluators that are capable of separating individual ability from team accomplishments.

If you're going to put as much weight into raw numbers as you do, at least normalize the statistics to accurately reflect circumstances. Wade's spent much of his career as the #1 option with little else around him. When Kobe was in that situation, his statistics were even more gaudy. Kobe was the first guard ever drafted straight out of HS, and was brought along slowly as a result. He didn't even start his first two years. Totally different situation for Wade, as Amir pointed out.

Regarding efficiency...what exactly is the difference between a 57.01% TS% shooter (Wade) and a 54.24% (Bryant...not adjusted for first two years)? What's that...one play a game?

Shooting percentage is so over-emphasized. We're talking the difference of one play in a 200 possession game.

Gaudy, yes. Efficient, no. With increased volume comes increased gaudiness (if that's a word). Kobe has arguably never had a season as efficient as ANY of Wade's, with the possible exception of his rookie year. I can understand the argument for Kobe being better, don't get me wrong, but I can't understand some thinking there's "no chance" or that it's not even close.

I think people just place too much value on rings. Is there "no chance" that if you put D-Wade on the '00, '01, '02, '09, and '10 Lakers instead of Kobe, that he wins those rings? And if he does, I bet everyone would be saying there's "no chance" Kobe is as good as Wade, only with even stronger motivation since Wade would have the rings AND numbers advantages, as opposed to just rings, as is currently the case with Kobe.

[ Edited by andes14 on Jun 8, 2011 at 19:58:11 ]
A third Laker thread. Great...
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?

I'd say he is #2

You'd put D-Herps over Kobe??? No way!!!

I can agree with the argument of him being 3 but no way 2.

Why exactly is there no way that D-Wade is #2 behind only Jordan.

Also, Reggie Miller is AT BEST 7-8 on the list...AT BEST.

You think that Wade is better than Kobe in his prime? Wade is sick and the best scorer on his team but he is not better than Prime Kobe dude. Kobe has 5 rings, they both played with the same guy(Shaq) and got a ring from him, and now Wade is working on ring #2 with 2 other superstars on his team. Meanwhile Kobe has 5 rings, had a better jump shot and post game, an MVP, a finals MVP or 2, and Wade doesnt have an MVP he only has a finals MVP(which is still pretty good). Sorry but Kobe's resume is better.

First of all, let's not compare their time with Shaq. Kobe had Shaq during his 8 prime, best years. Wade had him for a year or 2 while he was still good but not like he was before, and for a year or 2 when he was starting to slip badly. And that's it. Kobe arguably doesn't get any non-Shaq rings if it weren't for Celtics injuries (they woulda have to have been the faves to win in '09 with Garnett as they pushed the eventual conference champs to 7 games without a single second played by their best player...it's also very likely they don't eek out the game 7 win in '10 with Perkins). Also, while they both average essentially the same ppg for their careers (while it took Kobe a full additional shot per game to do so), Kobe's career high in FG% is surpassed by Wade's FG% every year of his career except for his rookie year (and even that was close). He also has a career edge in eFG% and TS% as well. He is also a significantly better passer and at least as good if not better on the glass and defensively. The same for every thing I just said is also true when comparing their playoff stats. Then throw in the significant career supporting cast advantage Kobe has enjoyed throughout his career (which explains the fact he has won more), and I don't see how one can say there is no chance Wade>Kobe.

Also, the year Kobe won MVP, you could EASILY make the argument it should have gone to CP3, LBJ, or Garnett ahead of him. As for the stuff like jump shot and post game, that may be true, yet it doesn't wind up mattering if it doesn't give him any edge in scoring metrics such as FG%, eFG%, TS%. For example, Kobe shoots 4.7% better from distance, yet he fails to have a higher eFG% even though it is weighted for 3's, so that edge doesn't really mean anything. Just like Kobe is a better free throw shooter, yet if it doesn't give him a higher TS% (which takes into account free throw shooting), it is meaningless.

But again, please don't imply that the playing with Shaq factor is something that is worthy of being canceled out because it is clearly not. Even the biggest LBJ haters don't point out that he didn't win a ring with Shaq because that would just be ludicrous.

Ugh I am not going to get into a big stats argument with you bro. Would take too much time and would get cluttered up. All I'll say is this: Kobe has made more clutch shots than Wade, he has scored 81 points, he has more size and a little bit more length(although Wade is being a defensive terror in these playoffs, I'll give him that), Kobe has been more durable, he has a better post game, a better mid range game, he's better from distance (believe it or not there is a big difference between the shooting abilities of someone shooting 33% and 38%), and he has won more titles and games overall.

Wade is a great player, and he probably has the edge on Kobe when it comes to passing and slashing to the rim. But Kobe is great at getting to the rim also, it's just nobody can really come close to Wade going to the rim in today's game IMO. But at the same time, Kobe in his prime was an absolutely amazing player and probably the most feared player in the game. That prime also lasted A LONG time. There was no way to guard Kobe except for double teaming him and then even sometimes that failed. Up until this last year, people would play off of Wade and it really helped when guarding against him. If you gave Kobe that much space he would drain a 3 or a long 2 in your face and he would do it over and over again. I HATED the guy for most of his career, but I can appreciate his game and how hard he works and how much skill he has. He is one of the best players to ever play the game and a real winner, Wade still has some stuff to work on and relies on athleticism quite a bit. Kobe is the more complete shooting guard dude.
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?

I'd say he is #2

You'd put D-Herps over Kobe??? No way!!!

I can agree with the argument of him being 3 but no way 2.

Why exactly is there no way that D-Wade is #2 behind only Jordan.

Also, Reggie Miller is AT BEST 7-8 on the list...AT BEST.

You think that Wade is better than Kobe in his prime? Wade is sick and the best scorer on his team but he is not better than Prime Kobe dude. Kobe has 5 rings, they both played with the same guy(Shaq) and got a ring from him, and now Wade is working on ring #2 with 2 other superstars on his team. Meanwhile Kobe has 5 rings, had a better jump shot and post game, an MVP, a finals MVP or 2, and Wade doesnt have an MVP he only has a finals MVP(which is still pretty good). Sorry but Kobe's resume is better.

First of all, let's not compare their time with Shaq. Kobe had Shaq during his 8 prime, best years. Wade had him for a year or 2 while he was still good but not like he was before, and for a year or 2 when he was starting to slip badly. And that's it. Kobe arguably doesn't get any non-Shaq rings if it weren't for Celtics injuries (they woulda have to have been the faves to win in '09 with Garnett as they pushed the eventual conference champs to 7 games without a single second played by their best player...it's also very likely they don't eek out the game 7 win in '10 with Perkins). Also, while they both average essentially the same ppg for their careers (while it took Kobe a full additional shot per game to do so), Kobe's career high in FG% is surpassed by Wade's FG% every year of his career except for his rookie year (and even that was close). He also has a career edge in eFG% and TS% as well. He is also a significantly better passer and at least as good if not better on the glass and defensively. The same for every thing I just said is also true when comparing their playoff stats. Then throw in the significant career supporting cast advantage Kobe has enjoyed throughout his career (which explains the fact he has won more), and I don't see how one can say there is no chance Wade>Kobe.

Also, the year Kobe won MVP, you could EASILY make the argument it should have gone to CP3, LBJ, or Garnett ahead of him. As for the stuff like jump shot and post game, that may be true, yet it doesn't wind up mattering if it doesn't give him any edge in scoring metrics such as FG%, eFG%, TS%. For example, Kobe shoots 4.7% better from distance, yet he fails to have a higher eFG% even though it is weighted for 3's, so that edge doesn't really mean anything. Just like Kobe is a better free throw shooter, yet if it doesn't give him a higher TS% (which takes into account free throw shooting), it is meaningless.

But again, please don't imply that the playing with Shaq factor is something that is worthy of being canceled out because it is clearly not. Even the biggest LBJ haters don't point out that he didn't win a ring with Shaq because that would just be ludicrous.

Ugh I am not going to get into a big stats argument with you bro. Would take too much time and would get cluttered up. All I'll say is this: Kobe has made more clutch shots than Wade, he has scored 81 points, he has more size and a little bit more length(although Wade is being a defensive terror in these playoffs, I'll give him that), Kobe has been more durable, he has a better post game, a better mid range game, he's better from distance (believe it or not there is a big difference between the shooting abilities of someone shooting 33% and 38%), and he has won more titles and games overall.

Wade is a great player, and he probably has the edge on Kobe when it comes to passing and slashing to the rim. But Kobe is great at getting to the rim also, it's just nobody can really come close to Wade going to the rim in today's game IMO. But at the same time, Kobe in his prime was an absolutely amazing player and probably the most feared player in the game. That prime also lasted A LONG time. There was no way to guard Kobe except for double teaming him and then even sometimes that failed. Up until this last year, people would play off of Wade and it really helped when guarding against him. If you gave Kobe that much space he would drain a 3 or a long 2 in your face and he would do it over and over again. I HATED the guy for most of his career, but I can appreciate his game and how hard he works and how much skill he has. He is one of the best players to ever play the game and a real winner, Wade still has some stuff to work on and relies on athleticism quite a bit. Kobe is the more complete shooting guard dude.

I previously addressed nearly every point you just made. 81 points I'll just disregard. Is David Thompson better than Michael Jordan because his career high for points in a game was higher? Yes he has made more clutch shots, he's also missed more clutch shots. This is because he's taken more clutch shots because he's played longer. His clutch % (however you want to define it) could very well be lower. As for the jump shooting and post abilites, I'll copy and paste what I said before so maybe you'll read it this time:

As for the stuff like jump shot and post game, that may be true, yet it doesn't wind up mattering if it doesn't give him any edge in scoring metrics such as FG%, eFG%, TS%. For example, Kobe shoots 4.7% better from distance (which, yes, is significant), yet he fails to have a higher eFG% even though it is weighted for 3's, so that edge doesn't really mean anything. Just like Kobe is a better free throw shooter, yet if it doesn't give him a higher TS% (which takes into account free throw shooting), it is meaningless.

Maybe Wade will be worse in his 30's than Kobe is/will be when his athleticism diminishes, but that would just be speculation. In terms of what we factually KNOW as of now though, how is there NO CHANCE the scale tilts in Wade's favor when all the numbers indicate that is the case (and even non-numbers based aspects i.e. defense- has Kobe ever finished in the top-3 in DPOY voting?)
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by WillistheWall:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?

I'd say he is #2

You'd put D-Herps over Kobe??? No way!!!

I can agree with the argument of him being 3 but no way 2.

Why exactly is there no way that D-Wade is #2 behind only Jordan.

Also, Reggie Miller is AT BEST 7-8 on the list...AT BEST.

You think that Wade is better than Kobe in his prime? Wade is sick and the best scorer on his team but he is not better than Prime Kobe dude. Kobe has 5 rings, they both played with the same guy(Shaq) and got a ring from him, and now Wade is working on ring #2 with 2 other superstars on his team. Meanwhile Kobe has 5 rings, had a better jump shot and post game, an MVP, a finals MVP or 2, and Wade doesnt have an MVP he only has a finals MVP(which is still pretty good). Sorry but Kobe's resume is better.

For now his resume is better.

I thought you were one of the people saying Bron is better than DWade, now Wade is better than Kobe? Even though Kobe in his prime would take Bron to school?

No, you thought your cousin disproved steroids in the NBA
  • Nes49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 5,340
After these past finals, lay the Lebron vs. Jordan BS to rest. Jordan will always rule.
Yeah f**king right
LOL




lebron is so fkn soft.
Originally posted by Nes49:
After these past finals, lay the Lebron vs. Jordan BS to rest. Jordan will always rule.

These past finals? He's only been in two finals and has won a total of two games. This whole comparison is a f**king joke. Completely agree that Jordan will always rule
Originally posted by DynastyChile:
LOL




lebron is so fkn soft.

But he was an "efficient" 9-14 from the field tonight. Because that's oh so important.
yah Jordan like performance.
Jordan=6-0 in the finals
LeBron=0-2 in the finals

Yeah I think we all know who is the more clutch player, better scorer, more heart, better defender, etc. His name doesnt start with an L.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by DynastyChile:
LOL




lebron is so fkn soft.

But he was an "efficient" 9-14 from the field tonight. Because that's oh so important.

I've never seen such a gifted player not want the ball so badly in crunch time. He acted like it was a hot potato everytime he touched it? D wade looked frustrated, he and chalmers were the only one that wants it once the mavs started pulling away. Feel bad for D wade.