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ECF: HEAT (3) VS. BULLS(1)

Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Originally posted by samoan49er:
Originally posted by JiksJuicy:
Bulls=Last Years and previous years Utah Jazz

Decent playoff team, but not good enough to get to the Finals. Sorry Bulls fans, you will be watching nothing but this the next few seasons. Especially with the likes of the Heat.

Easy to say cuz we got Boozer, Korver and Brewer...whatever. This team has a better core than the Jazz had. The Bulls will get better, as will the Heat, but dont doubt the makeup of this team. Its easy to be down on them since they're currently in a 3-1 hole right now. The Heat aren't running away with all these games, each one has been a tough battle. The big difference, the Heat have 2 closers and the Bulls have one that is still learning.

As for the Rose for MVP stuff, again, easy to doubt him since he's struggling right now. But anyone who actually "watched" him play throughout the season knows that he was well-deserving.

Thats another thing that gets me. Everytime someone brings up the idea that Rose is an undeserving MVP, Bulls fans just assume said person doesnt watch games.

Like I said before, his MVP status was built upon a compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis. Nothing more.

Hey its not just Bulls fans that say that, sports writers, analysts, broadcasters said the same thing too. It was just hard to watch the Bulls and see the way Rose was playing, and say that he was "not" deserving of the MVP award. Sure the numbers weren't the greatest, but the eye-test provided some awesome results. Whatever, I'll take the compelling narrative and arbitrary analysis over the statistical analysis.

Your "eye test" tells you that LeBron wasnt deserving? Dirk? Dwight? Kobe? Durant?

When you have a bunch of superstars who are jumbled at the top with no clear cut top guy, you HAVE to point to the statistics. If everyone is so close at the top, what other way is there to analyze it?

Of course the answer is statistics. And Derrick Rose's statistics simply do not add up to MVP. Period.

Didnt say anything about the other players not being deserving. My only point was Rose was deserving of the award, which some people like to point out. Arguments can be made for and against each person you listed. Do statistics take into account who each player has on their team. Other than Howard and maybe Dirk, the other candidates had legitimate 2nd options to go to all year. Boozer and Noah missed close to half of the regular season and yet the Bulls finished the year with the best record in the league. So where are those facts in your statistical analysis? Again, I aint trying to argue that Rose is hands down the MVP and nobody else shoulda won. Just saying that he's just as deserving as anyone else.

Bulls fans always point to Noah and Boozer missing time, yet dont point to the fact that the Bulls have been a model of health all season long. They have had the healthiest team in the NBA.

And I think you are missing the point of my argument. I am not saying that purely stats should go into MVP voting. But I will ask you again. When there is no clear cut MVP, what exactly should be used to determine value if you arent using stats?

This year's Lakers had arguably the healthiest team in NBA history. 7 of their top-9 rotational guys missed a combined 2 games. I guarantee that's never happened before.

Bro. Stop. Yes, I know Noah and Boozer missed time. But look at the rest of the Bulls team in games missed.

Rose - 2
Watson- 0
Bogans - 0
Brewer - 1
Deng - 0
Korver - 0
Gibson - 2
Asik - 0

If indeed your Laker statement is true, then it would be logical to think that the Bulls had the SECOND healthiest team in NBA history.

But no. People point to Noah and Boozer missing time as a reason that Rose won the MVP, when the fact of the matter is, the Bulls were a model of health.

Even with one of those 2 guys injured, AND Rose off the court at the time, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents. The Rose had no help argument is so overblown, its laughable.

And I'll say to you that Boozer and Noah are key components of the offense, and they are starters. From that list of healthy players you mention, how many are "consistent" contributors to the offense? The defense stayed strong while they were out, but the offense was often stagnant, thus leading to Rose carrying the load. So yeah, the Rose had no help argument is NOT overblown and is NOT laughable.

Its not laughable?

Explain to me how per 100 possessions, this years Bulls team averaged 1.49 less points with Rose off the court than they did with him on it?

Explain to me how during the time Noah or Boozer missed with injuries, the Bulls STILL outscored their opponents when Rose was resting?

Explain to me how Rose ranked 7th ON THE BULLS in efficiency from the field if there were no other viable scoring options on the team other than him?

Because Rose is the only player on the Bulls that can create his own shot. The guys that are more efficient than him only do so because of what Rose creates. And they have the luxury of shooting a far higher % of their shots when wide open. Since Rose is the only playmaker on their team, he has to take a lot tougher shots.

Fair enough. But there is nothing that you can say that can disprove the first two statements I made. Rose's indispensability is overblown as evident by said statements.

Hmm, perhaps its because when Rose is resting, its usually the opponents bench that is out on the floor. And as been the case all year, the Bulls bench was better than the opponents. Also, the bench D was better than the starting D, which quite often led to more baskets in transition. As Rose goes, so do the Bulls. Also, just because players didn't miss that many games, that doesn't mean they didn't play hurt. I know every team goes through that, I'm just saying.

Exactly! The Bulls have a better TEAM than almost the entire league. That doesnt mean Rose should be the MVP. The Bulls are a GREAT team. You put any number of PGs on the Bulls, and they dont miss a beat. Like I said, Rose is a great talent. But he should not have been the MVP.

Lets hope he doesnt lose the game for his team again tonight.

They're a great DEFENSIVE team. But the reason Rose won MVP (though I could certainly understand the argument for LBJ and Dwight) is because a team that only has one guy that can create his own bucket/worry defenses has no business winning 62 games.

Wow I give up already, I have no comeback for the put any number of point guards on this team and we dont miss a beat. Please, give me a break with that one. I guess there's no convincing one another otherwise, might as well just give it a rest. Agree to disagree. I feel like I'm debating a John Hollinger article or something. Go Bulls!!

I'm sorry if I touched a nerve or something. I just dont see why my statement is so outrageous to you.

A point guard that can create his own shot, shoot it at 44%, shoot below average from 3 point range, plays average defense and have a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio is THAT irreplaceable?

I guess the NBA has changed.

Im rooting for the Bulls as well, so Go Bulls.
[ Edited by 80sbaby24 on May 26, 2011 at 1:20 PM ]
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
I'm sorry if I touched a nerve or something. I just dont see why my statement is so outrageous to you.

A point guard that can create his own shot, shoot it at 44%, shoot below average from 3 point range, plays average defense and have a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio is THAT irreplaceable?

I guess the NBA has changed.

Im rooting for the Bulls as well, so Go Bulls.

Nah its all good, I really do understand everything you're pointing out regarding the stats and all. I just disagree with your perception of Rose's worth, which is an argument that will keep going in circles. Its definitely something Rose needs to and will improve on. So yeah, being a huge Bulls fan, Rose is that special player that I and most Bulls fans will continue to defend.
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
I'm sorry if I touched a nerve or something. I just dont see why my statement is so outrageous to you.

A point guard that can create his own shot, shoot it at 44%, shoot below average from 3 point range, plays average defense and have a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio is THAT irreplaceable?

I guess the NBA has changed.

Im rooting for the Bulls as well, so Go Bulls.

YES. Only LBJ, Wade, Durant, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams could replace Rose and have that team even win 50 games. Like I said, he won it because that team had no business winning 62 games. There might have been other players in the NBA that had similar stats, but they wouldn't have been able to have those stats if they were on Chicago as the only offensive option.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
I'm sorry if I touched a nerve or something. I just dont see why my statement is so outrageous to you.

A point guard that can create his own shot, shoot it at 44%, shoot below average from 3 point range, plays average defense and have a 2:1 assist to turnover ratio is THAT irreplaceable?

I guess the NBA has changed.

Im rooting for the Bulls as well, so Go Bulls.

YES. Only LBJ, Wade, Durant, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams could replace Rose and have that team even win 50 games. Like I said, he won it because that team had no business winning 62 games. There might have been other players in the NBA that had similar stats, but they wouldn't have been able to have those stats if they were on Chicago as the only offensive option.

I dont agree with this. Statistical analysis puts the Bulls at 55 wins without Rose, and without a replacement. Now I realize this might be inaccurate, but even if its inaccurate by 10 whole wins, wouldnt it then be logical to think that those guys you mentioned would be responsible for more than 5 wins? I do.
[ Edited by 80sbaby24 on May 26, 2011 at 2:44 PM ]
With all due respect to Miami's defense, Chicago's been making some TERRIBLE passes this series.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
With all due respect to Miami's defense, Chicago's been making some TERRIBLE passes this series.
Boozer is such a vagina. It's the same thing every playoffs with him. Once they play a team with good interior defense, he shrivels. That signing might come back to haunt Chicago because it's gonna be a lot harder to acquire a legit #2 next to Rose.

Bulls are playing with fire right now. Miami doesn't appear to be all that invested in winning this game, but Chicago is letting them hang around.
Lebron with the biggest flop lol
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Boozer is such a vagina. It's the same thing every playoffs with him. Once they play a team with good interior defense, he shrivels. That signing might come back to haunt Chicago because it's gonna be a lot harder to acquire a legit #2 next to Rose.

Bulls are playing with fire right now. Miami doesn't appear to be all that invested in winning this game, but Chicago is letting them hang around.

nuff said. i didn't like the signing then and still do not like it
Originally posted by jimrat201:
Lebron with the biggest flop lol

no kidding. wonder what kind of flop fines are out there.
Bogus calls
That's a weak T call. It's the playoffs for chrissakes.
What a terrible offensive series this has been.
Kurt Thomas has nice tits