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All TIME MLB Draft: BirdmanJr is UP. Fincham11 is ON DECK

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
All the picks have been fine thus far. However, there should never be an all time MLB draft where the first 2 picks werent Babe Ruth and Willie Mays. They are the best 2 players to ever play the game in my opinion.

I think Bonds, Williams, Mays and Ruth all have good arguments. I just don't think there can ever be a consensus number one considering how drastically the game has changed since its inception.

I think Mays would have hit 800 homeruns if he hadnt missed 2 seasons to military and played in the toughest park in baseball for a RH hitter to hit homers.

Bonds simply was not in the class of Ruth, Mays, Williams, or Gehrig until the roid era. Sorry, but its true.

That's a fair argument.

Bonds had already won multiple MVPs by the time his head grew 3 sizes to big, you can throw him in the argument...

I dont think that is necessarily true. Bonds was a great player obviously but not one of the greatest ever to play until he had help. There are others who have won multiple MVPs who would never be in that discussion.

Listen, Bonds was a great player before the roid era. No doubt he was first ballot HOF. I just dont think he is in the class of the top 4-5 players of all time. However, What IF just looks at one year and doesnt consider the roids era so he probably would be the top pick given that.

What if Bonds had won a championship? How would you view him? Because he and Mays were the greatest 5 tool players EVER.

Well these guys are the greatest 4 Tool players EVER!


Ahhh, yes they are, yes they are!!!!!!!!! Nice one Sixth.

MAYNARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Hollywood49er:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
I'm sorry, guys. I just don't understand why we can't talk about s**t without being pricks to each other. John made the exact same point about Bonds and didn't have to demean anyone else in the process. People don't talk to each other like that in real life, and it pisses me off when they do it behind a computer screen.

Its funny you say this because you throw insults at people all the time, it might not be as blatant as the ones I threw at you, but you do it.

I confront people when I think they're being jerks, yes. But I never fire the first round.
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
All the picks have been fine thus far. However, there should never be an all time MLB draft where the first 2 picks werent Babe Ruth and Willie Mays. They are the best 2 players to ever play the game in my opinion.

I think Bonds, Williams, Mays and Ruth all have good arguments. I just don't think there can ever be a consensus number one considering how drastically the game has changed since its inception.

I think Mays would have hit 800 homeruns if he hadnt missed 2 seasons to military and played in the toughest park in baseball for a RH hitter to hit homers.

Bonds simply was not in the class of Ruth, Mays, Williams, or Gehrig until the roid era. Sorry, but its true.

Same could be said for Ted Williams who missed three prime years of his career due to wars. Bonds played in a pitchers park for most of his career and did end up breaking up the home run record. The best pitcher Mays faced was Koufax, who is arguably one of the greats, but pitchers in the modern area are a totally different beast.

I just don't think there's a consensus best player, just too many variables.

On a side note, where the hell is ATG? A's fans......

Perhaps you missed where I included Ted Williams in the list of the 4 guys I would put at the top. He missed several years and would have hit 700+ wiithout question.

As far as your comment about pitchers, well I just dont agree with that generalization. Willie Mays faced many many great pitchers. In fact, I think you could make an arguement that pitching today is no better and possibly worse than it was during Mays time. In his era pitchers could drill batters almost at will, pitching wasnt as watered down by expansion, and there were MANY great Hall of Fame pitchers. I just dont buy that todays pitchers are better as a whole.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
All the picks have been fine thus far. However, there should never be an all time MLB draft where the first 2 picks werent Babe Ruth and Willie Mays. They are the best 2 players to ever play the game in my opinion.

I think Bonds, Williams, Mays and Ruth all have good arguments. I just don't think there can ever be a consensus number one considering how drastically the game has changed since its inception.

I think Mays would have hit 800 homeruns if he hadnt missed 2 seasons to military and played in the toughest park in baseball for a RH hitter to hit homers.

Bonds simply was not in the class of Ruth, Mays, Williams, or Gehrig until the roid era. Sorry, but its true.

Same could be said for Ted Williams who missed three prime years of his career due to wars. Bonds played in a pitchers park for most of his career and did end up breaking up the home run record. The best pitcher Mays faced was Koufax, who is arguably one of the greats, but pitchers in the modern area are a totally different beast.

I just don't think there's a consensus best player, just too many variables.

On a side note, where the hell is ATG? A's fans......

Perhaps you missed where I included Ted Williams in the list of the 4 guys I would put at the top. He missed several years and would have hit 700+ wiithout question.

As far as your comment about pitchers, well I just dont agree with that generalization. Willie Mays faced many many great pitchers. In fact, I think you could make an arguement that pitching today is no better and possibly worse than it was during Mays time. In his era pitchers could drill batters almost at will, pitching wasnt as watered down by expansion, and there were MANY great Hall of Fame pitchers. I just dont buy that todays pitchers are better as a whole.

What's your opinion of the Japanese/Latin/Black influence on the game that wasn't there during Ruth and Williams' careers?
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Hollywood49er:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
I'm sorry, guys. I just don't understand why we can't talk about s**t without being pricks to each other. John made the exact same point about Bonds and didn't have to demean anyone else in the process. People don't talk to each other like that in real life, and it pisses me off when they do it behind a computer screen.

Its funny you say this because you throw insults at people all the time, it might not be as blatant as the ones I threw at you, but you do it.

I confront people when I think they're being jerks, yes. But I never fire the first round.

End This....this is retarded!!!!!!!
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Hollywood49er:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
I'm sorry, guys. I just don't understand why we can't talk about s**t without being pricks to each other. John made the exact same point about Bonds and didn't have to demean anyone else in the process. People don't talk to each other like that in real life, and it pisses me off when they do it behind a computer screen.

Its funny you say this because you throw insults at people all the time, it might not be as blatant as the ones I threw at you, but you do it.

I confront people when I think they're being jerks, yes. But I never fire the first round.

End This....this is retarded!!!!!!!

this, don't feed the troll
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
All the picks have been fine thus far. However, there should never be an all time MLB draft where the first 2 picks werent Babe Ruth and Willie Mays. They are the best 2 players to ever play the game in my opinion.

I think Bonds, Williams, Mays and Ruth all have good arguments. I just don't think there can ever be a consensus number one considering how drastically the game has changed since its inception.

I think Mays would have hit 800 homeruns if he hadnt missed 2 seasons to military and played in the toughest park in baseball for a RH hitter to hit homers.

Bonds simply was not in the class of Ruth, Mays, Williams, or Gehrig until the roid era. Sorry, but its true.

Same could be said for Ted Williams who missed three prime years of his career due to wars. Bonds played in a pitchers park for most of his career and did end up breaking up the home run record. The best pitcher Mays faced was Koufax, who is arguably one of the greats, but pitchers in the modern area are a totally different beast.

I just don't think there's a consensus best player, just too many variables.

On a side note, where the hell is ATG? A's fans......

Perhaps you missed where I included Ted Williams in the list of the 4 guys I would put at the top. He missed several years and would have hit 700+ wiithout question.

As far as your comment about pitchers, well I just dont agree with that generalization. Willie Mays faced many many great pitchers. In fact, I think you could make an arguement that pitching today is no better and possibly worse than it was during Mays time. In his era pitchers could drill batters almost at will, pitching wasnt as watered down by expansion, and there were MANY great Hall of Fame pitchers. I just dont buy that todays pitchers are better as a whole.

I didn't miss it, I was just agreeing with you.

I'm not saying pitchers as a whole were better or worse, I just think pitching is completely different.

Edited, it's impossible to have a conversation without name dropping

[ Edited by itlynstalyn on Apr 8, 2010 at 12:28:20 ]
  • dman
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,453
Watch out!

Names are dropping!
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
All the picks have been fine thus far. However, there should never be an all time MLB draft where the first 2 picks werent Babe Ruth and Willie Mays. They are the best 2 players to ever play the game in my opinion.

I think Bonds, Williams, Mays and Ruth all have good arguments. I just don't think there can ever be a consensus number one considering how drastically the game has changed since its inception.

I think Mays would have hit 800 homeruns if he hadnt missed 2 seasons to military and played in the toughest park in baseball for a RH hitter to hit homers.

Bonds simply was not in the class of Ruth, Mays, Williams, or Gehrig until the roid era. Sorry, but its true.

Same could be said for Ted Williams who missed three prime years of his career due to wars. Bonds played in a pitchers park for most of his career and did end up breaking up the home run record. The best pitcher Mays faced was Koufax, who is arguably one of the greats, but pitchers in the modern area are a totally different beast.

I just don't think there's a consensus best player, just too many variables.

On a side note, where the hell is ATG? A's fans......

Perhaps you missed where I included Ted Williams in the list of the 4 guys I would put at the top. He missed several years and would have hit 700+ wiithout question.

As far as your comment about pitchers, well I just dont agree with that generalization. Willie Mays faced many many great pitchers. In fact, I think you could make an arguement that pitching today is no better and possibly worse than it was during Mays time. In his era pitchers could drill batters almost at will, pitching wasnt as watered down by expansion, and there were MANY great Hall of Fame pitchers. I just dont buy that todays pitchers are better as a whole.

What's your opinion of the Japanese/Latin/Black influence on the game that wasn't there during Ruth and Williams' careers?

No question Pete that is a factor. There were many great black players that could only play in the Negro leagues. Its impossible really to determine how much that would have affected Ruth, Williams, and others numbers. In todays game, however, I think only 8% of all players are African Americans and there have been few pitchers.

As to your question about 5 tool players... Mays is without question the greatest 5 tool player ever. I just dont see how there is any debate on that. He was just an incredible outfielder and played the toughest position. He had an amazing arm ( which Bonds did not) and one of the greatest base runners ever. Guys who know the game really well like Joe Morgan would tell you its just a no brainer on who the greatest is.

While Ruth and Williams were not great 5 tool players there ability to crush the ball and dominate a game would have to put them in the top of any list of greatest ever.
  • SLICK
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 11,197
Easy on the names guys.
  • SLICK
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 11,197
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
Originally posted by TheSixthRing:
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by ninerlifer:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
All the picks have been fine thus far. However, there should never be an all time MLB draft where the first 2 picks werent Babe Ruth and Willie Mays. They are the best 2 players to ever play the game in my opinion.

I think Bonds, Williams, Mays and Ruth all have good arguments. I just don't think there can ever be a consensus number one considering how drastically the game has changed since its inception.

I think Mays would have hit 800 homeruns if he hadnt missed 2 seasons to military and played in the toughest park in baseball for a RH hitter to hit homers.

Bonds simply was not in the class of Ruth, Mays, Williams, or Gehrig until the roid era. Sorry, but its true.

That's a fair argument.

Bonds had already won multiple MVPs by the time his head grew 3 sizes to big, you can throw him in the argument...

I dont think that is necessarily true. Bonds was a great player obviously but not one of the greatest ever to play until he had help. There are others who have won multiple MVPs who would never be in that discussion.

Listen, Bonds was a great player before the roid era. No doubt he was first ballot HOF. I just dont think he is in the class of the top 4-5 players of all time. However, What IF just looks at one year and doesnt consider the roids era so he probably would be the top pick given that.

What if Bonds had won a championship? How would you view him? Because he and Mays were the greatest 5 tool players EVER.

Well these guys are the greatest 4 Tool players EVER!


Ahhh, yes they are, yes they are!!!!!!!!! Nice one Sixth.

MAYNARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Dave Maynard???
Originally posted by SLICK:
Easy on the names guys.

You're up SLICK.. Im right after and my card is already filled out
Originally posted by Jordache49:
Originally posted by SLICK:
Easy on the names guys.

You're up SLICK.. Im right after and my card is already filled out

I think AllTimeGreat is on the clock.
Originally posted by YourHuckleberry:
Originally posted by Jordache49:
Originally posted by SLICK:
Easy on the names guys.

You're up SLICK.. Im right after and my card is already filled out

I think AllTimeGreat is on the clock.



You're right.. My bad
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
No question Pete that is a factor. There were many great black players that could only play in the Negro leagues. Its impossible really to determine how much that would have affected Ruth, Williams, and others numbers. In todays game, however, I think only 8% of all players are African Americans and there have been few pitchers.

As to your question about 5 tool players... Mays is without question the greatest 5 tool player ever. I just dont see how there is any debate on that. He was just an incredible outfielder and played the toughest position. He had an amazing arm ( which Bonds did not) and one of the greatest base runners ever. Guys who know the game really well like Joe Morgan would tell you its just a no brainer on who the greatest is.

While Ruth and Williams were not great 5 tool players there ability to crush the ball and dominate a game would have to put them in the top of any list of greatest ever.

Yeah, that's a fair point. I also think that along with Bonds' lack of arm, Mays played a more important position. Your average CF is going to be involved in a lot more plays than your average LF, so even if Bonds did have a great arm, he wouldn't be as important defensively as a great CF.

BTW, I'm not arguing for or against any particular player, I was just interested to see how important you think certain elements are.