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Vernon Davis / Kaepernick and our WR's route trees.

Davis is not a very explosive player out of his breaks which is why most of the time, he's running routes that do not require being quick out of breaks. If he's not running a 9 or 7, he's really not very effective. We need that 2-7 yard square in and out/curl type of target. Kyle and Mario were prime for this but they were also small. Vernon has the size but sucks at these routes.
Originally posted by rxrunner:
i dont think its davis with the issue, i believe its the lack of chemistry with kaep and davis. kaep and walker have better chemistry with each other than davis

Kaep has chemistry with everyone on this team, Davis is just not giving it his all. This stuff was happening when Smith was still our QB and god knows Vernon and Alex have great chemistry.
He's a diva
Originally posted by susweel:
Vernon has been "figured out"

I'm so tired of hearing that he's running the wheel route! It's not 2011! What was he running when he got concussed? I rest that case!
Get Vernon out on the flat on the side that Moss is running deep or even spread him out wide instead of ever putting TG into the offense.
Some kind of te screen when he pretends to block for a sec.. Fake the screen to Crabtree and the whole d is looking that way.... Something!!
Okay I'm done...
Originally posted by verb1der:
I think its time to trade Vernon, he makes too much money to just be a blocking TE.

I knew I'd see this one coming when I cam here but I still did this just outta curiosity what do u think we should get for him? I hope he will retire a Niner, dude is a mismatch made in heaven!
[ Edited by JsilvaNINERSRUNIT on Jan 8, 2013 at 8:04 AM ]
Originally posted by JsilvaNINERSRUNIT:
Originally posted by verb1der:
I think its time to trade Vernon, he makes too much money to just be a blocking TE.

I knew I'd see this one coming when I cam here but I still did this just outta curiosity what do u think we should get for him? I hope he will retire a Niner, dude is a mismatch made in heaven!

Because from a business standpoint, 49ers are overpaying for a blocking/decoy TE. He got a big contract because in previous years he was the one and only receiving threat. But it seems that's no longer the issue.

How bout trade him, and spread the wealth towards other needs!? A dynasty isn't built around elite TE's anyways right?
It's not VD...he's open but the windows are smaller b/c defenses are making a concerted effort to blanket him. That said, The Giants tried to do it in the NFCCG and he still caught 2 TD's. The biggest issues is that we run an Anti-WCO. More often than not in the WCO the QB is to look deeper to the #1 and #2 options and then come back to the TE for intermediate passes (think Brent Jones finding the soft spots) and then check down to the RB's if nobody else is open. We couldn't be more opposite.

We often times keep both VD and Gore in to block and rarely flare them out. If VD is in the pass play he's designed to be a decoy often (ala Moss all year). On the rare occasion he is the primary target, the play designs and routes seem weak and unimaginative and easy to defend (remember fly sweeps and wheel routes and throw-backs?). And that's not going to suddenly change under HaRoman unfortunately.

When you have a premier weapon like VD and Crabtree (now), you must get creative and get them balls early and often no matter what the defense does (see Bears game) and loosen up that defense and help your best receivers and QB get into a rhythm. I can't think of a better example of how Fisher moved Amendola (first game back after a busted up collar bone) all over the field to get him the ball and as a result, this micro-receiver with one arm absolutely torched our defense.

With VD and the Q formations, you can line VD up in the backfield, on the edges as a WR, run screens, deep routes, crossing routes, wheel routes, reverses, fly-sweeps, find soft zones, out of a jumbo packages, on throw-backs, etc. If you can't get VD the ball, there is something fundamentally wrong. No way an elite talent like that goes hidden for 1/2 the year on a quality team. Period.
[ Edited by NCommand on Jan 8, 2013 at 9:01 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
It's not VD...he's open but the windows are smaller b/c defenses are making a concerted effort to blanket him. That said, The Giants tried to do it in the NFCCG and he still caught 2 TD's. The biggest issues is that we run an Anti-WCO. More often than not in the WCO the QB is to look deeper to the #1 and #2 options and then come back to the TE for intermediate passes (think Brent Jones finding the soft spots) and then check down to the RB's if nobody else is open. We couldn't be more opposite.

We often times keep both VD and Gore in to block and rarely flare them out. If VD is in the pass play he's designed to be a decoy often (ala Moss all year). On the rare occasion he is the primary target, the play designs and routes seem weak and unimaginative and easy to defend (remember fly sweeps and wheel routes and throw-backs?). And that's not going to suddenly change under HaRoman unfortunately.

When you have a premier weapon like VD and Crabtree (now), you must get creative and get them balls early and often no matter what the defense does (see Bears game) and loosen up that defense and help your best receivers and QB get into a rhythm. I can't think of a better example of how Fisher moved Amendola (first game back after a busted up collar bone) all over the field to get him the ball and as a result, this micro-receiver with one arm absolutely torched our defense.

With VD and the Q formations, you can line VD up in the backfield, on the edges as a WR, run screens, deep routes, crossing routes, wheel routes, reverses, fly-sweeps, find soft zones, out of a jumbo packages, on throw-backs, etc. If you can't get VD the ball, there is something fundamentally wrong. No way an elite talent like that goes hidden for 1/2 the year on a quality team. Period.

What you're saying makes sense NC. But VD is a big TE, I don't think he's the kind of receiver you can just move around like Amendola. That kind of responsibility has now fallen on Crabtree, and in the last 2-3 games, he's the one they've been moving around to free up at the LOS.

Here's a good example..

http://www.nfl.com/videos/san-francisco-49ers/0ap2000000120193/QB-Kaepernick-to-WR-Crabtree-7-yd-pass-TD


VD is just a role-player now, he is not a #1 (but he sure gets paid like it.)
Originally posted by verb1der:
Because from a business standpoint, 49ers are overpaying for a blocking/decoy TE. He got a big contract because in previous years he was the one and only receiving threat. But it seems that's no longer the issue.

How bout trade him, and spread the wealth towards other needs!? A dynasty isn't built around elite TE's anyways right?

I definately understand where your coming from n your right there is no way he should continue to make the money he is IF his numbers don't get better. But I highly doubt anybody would put a package together that would get Harbaugh n baalke to pull the trigger i would think at least a mid first rounder or a young player. Anything less and yeah it helps the salary cap but it hurts our team. And imagine the backlash from the fans... Nvm dont
[ Edited by JsilvaNINERSRUNIT on Jan 8, 2013 at 2:30 PM ]
Originally posted by JsilvaNINERSRUNIT:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Because from a business standpoint, 49ers are overpaying for a blocking/decoy TE. He got a big contract because in previous years he was the one and only receiving threat. But it seems that's no longer the issue.

How bout trade him, and spread the wealth towards other needs!? A dynasty isn't built around elite TE's anyways right?

I definately understand where your coming from n your right there is no way he should continue to make the money he is IF his numbers don't get better. But I highly doubt anybody would put a package together that would get Harbaugh n baalke to pull the trigger i would think at least a mid first rounder and a young player. Anything less and yeah it helps the salary cap but it hurts our team. And imagine the backlash from the fans... Nvm dont

DIdn't VD restructure his contract a few weeks ago?
VD is more than simply a role player - he remains a very good blocker and is probably the fastest TE in the NFL. His hands have always been circumspect, but he's made some pretty outstanding catches over the years and was our best player last year during the playoffs. There are a few reasons that he has been less productive this year. 1. Development of Crabtree - the bottom line is that unless you're the Patriots your best receiver is typically a receiver. Crabtree has emerged this year, which means less touches by other players, including Davis. 2. Davis is not 6'6". With other teams that have great TEs, even if they also have a dominant WR, the great TE still gets looks over the middle and in the red zone - think Jimmy Graham. But Davis is 6'3", which has always meant that he is not the prototype red zone threat and for him to go over the middle requires him to elevate (and expose himself to the big hit) more so than taller TEs. Alex trusted Davis to go get those balls and Davis has taken some big hits - I haven't seen Kaep do the same. 3. Kaep - I love the kid, but he hasn't learned to go through his progressions as capably as a more-experienced QB. That will come with time. But for now, the check down routes and flares are not really there. On crucial 3rd downs, Kaep is locking on Crabtree instead of going through the progression. This has led to less touches for Davis and Gore.

There are very few TEs in the league that I would rank higher than Davis. The TE position is extremely important - but it is up to our coaches to utilize it correctly.
Originally posted by midrdan:
VD is more than simply a role player - he remains a very good blocker and is probably the fastest TE in the NFL. His hands have always been circumspect, but he's made some pretty outstanding catches over the years and was our best player last year during the playoffs. There are a few reasons that he has been less productive this year. 1. Development of Crabtree - the bottom line is that unless you're the Patriots your best receiver is typically a receiver. Crabtree has emerged this year, which means less touches by other players, including Davis. 2. Davis is not 6'6". With other teams that have great TEs, even if they also have a dominant WR, the great TE still gets looks over the middle and in the red zone - think Jimmy Graham. But Davis is 6'3", which has always meant that he is not the prototype red zone threat and for him to go over the middle requires him to elevate (and expose himself to the big hit) more so than taller TEs. Alex trusted Davis to go get those balls and Davis has taken some big hits - I haven't seen Kaep do the same. 3. Kaep - I love the kid, but he hasn't learned to go through his progressions as capably as a more-experienced QB. That will come with time. But for now, the check down routes and flares are not really there. On crucial 3rd downs, Kaep is locking on Crabtree instead of going through the progression. This has led to less touches for Davis and Gore.

There are very few TEs in the league that I would rank higher than Davis. The TE position is extremely important - but it is up to our coaches to utilize it correctly.

Nice post...VD has PROVEN he can be dominant and the man esp. in the playoffs. He blew UP last year and coming into the playoffs everyone knew he was hot and we had very poor receivers...the Giants did everything they could to stop him and he still scored two huge TD's that set the tone. He's one of the three of our biggest playmakers w/o a doubt. If he wasn't teams wouldn't be rolling 4 DB's to him. That said, it does falls on Roman, like with Jerry Rice, to create packages and plays that get the ball in your best players hands early and often...not only for VD but for CK as well. With the new Q offense, you could line VD up n the backfield with Gore/James and CK. Is he going to block? Flare out? Screen? Where...outside, behind the DL? We used to exploit defenses on VD's wheel routes and throw-backs. I've seen him used outside as a WR to use his straight-line speed and size. Either way...moving him around grabs the attention of the defense and creates mismatches...even if it's not for him. Roman needs to pull his head out of his ass and use the few weapons we have left (VD, Crabtree, Moss, Gore and James). Period.

It's the playoffs so we're going to have to trust the OL to pass block effectively. Maybe we leave Gore in wile VD goes out. Ideally both could flare out but that's not us right now.
[ Edited by NCommand on Jan 8, 2013 at 3:27 PM ]
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by JsilvaNINERSRUNIT:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Because from a business standpoint, 49ers are overpaying for a blocking/decoy TE. He got a big contract because in previous years he was the one and only receiving threat. But it seems that's no longer the issue.

How bout trade him, and spread the wealth towards other needs!? A dynasty isn't built around elite TE's anyways right?

I definately understand where your coming from n your right there is no way he should continue to make the money he is IF his numbers don't get better. But I highly doubt anybody would put a package together that would get Harbaugh n baalke to pull the trigger i would think at least a mid first rounder and a young player. Anything less and yeah it helps the salary cap but it hurts our team. And imagine the backlash from the fans... Nvm dont

DIdn't VD restructure his contract a few weeks ago?

You're right, I totally forgot he restructured so that Bowman can be signed, my bad!
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,593
Originally posted by JsilvaNINERSRUNIT:
Originally posted by verb1der:
I think its time to trade Vernon, he makes too much money to just be a blocking TE.

I knew I'd see this one coming when I cam here but I still did this just outta curiosity what do u think we should get for him? I hope he will retire a Niner, dude is a mismatch made in heaven!
i do not want to trade him but i am getting tired of everyone telling me how he is a mismatch made in heaven. If this is true then why the hell are we not using this mismatch made in heaven? is it the fault of ck? is it he fault of vernon? is it the fault of f**kface roman? is it the fault of Jh the god? i am getting so sick of hearing how great he is and then he sets there with one catch for four yards after a game
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by JsilvaNINERSRUNIT:
Originally posted by verb1der:
I think its time to trade Vernon, he makes too much money to just be a blocking TE.

I knew I'd see this one coming when I cam here but I still did this just outta curiosity what do u think we should get for him? I hope he will retire a Niner, dude is a mismatch made in heaven!
i do not want to trade him but i am getting tired of everyone telling me how he is a mismatch made in heaven. If this is true then why the hell are we not using this mismatch made in heaven? is it the fault of ck? is it he fault of vernon? is it the fault of f**kface roman? is it the fault of Jh the god? i am getting so sick of hearing how great he is and then he sets there with one catch for four yards after a game

breathe cciowa...breathe..