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quarterback controversy

  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 21,052
Originally posted by JerryRice1848:
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Originally posted by dj43:
I think it is time for a reminder about coaching staffs and their duties:

First of all, the Offensive Coordinator is almost always the equivalent of the Chairman of the Board of Directors in most companies. He makes the big decisions, sets the direction, then relies on his underlings to carry out the specifics. The case is much the same in football. Other than in parts of the OTAs and TC, the OC is working with the position coaches so much of the time that there is little time to work with individuals on technique. Consequently, it is not accurate to say "Mike McCarthy did this, and Norv Turner has done that, etc..." The truth is, the 49ers were such a talentless, rudderless ship under McCarthy that there was little time to work with Smith, and it showed. Nolan looked at the offense as a necessary evil. Turner was a bit better and that example is telling. In just a short period of time, AS became a more effective player though not a great deal of technical improvement occurred. Part of that was scheme and part was the fact Norv did spend some time with Alex working on the fundamentals he had never been taught before. Martz is a schemer, not a technician. The rest of the OCs are forgettable.

Secondly, the most important person in terms of teaching technique to a QB is the QB coach, NOT THE OC. Here is where the real crime of Nolan/Singletary lie. At no time during those years did the 49ers have a QB coach who had actually played the position at any level since HS. Cincy was the only other team during those first 6 years that did not have a QB coach that had never played the position. I don't care how much football a guy has seen or played, if you haven't played the position, and understand the complexity of it and how the position needs to be viewed, you CANNOT coach the position effectively. It was AT THIS LEVEL that the 49ers did the greatest disservice to Alex Smith. Not until Mike Johnson arrived did Smith have an every-day tutor that had actually played the position and could teach it. It is IMPORTANT to note that Smith's turnaround started under Johnson. He improved in both technique and efficiency, though the technical improvements were not huge. All of which goes to show how important the position coach is to the individual player as opposed to just the OC.

Now Smith, and the 49ers, have something they have not had at any time during the Smith era; an offensive minded HC that has also played the position and hired position coaches with an established reputation of success in teaching technique as well as game plan. The result has been the best QB play since Jeff Garcia.

It is also important to recognize the efforts of the off-season in which the FO brought in 3 WRs via signings and the draft, and also drafted an explosive RB, which clearly show that the staff recognized a need to improve the receiving end of the passing game. Whether Peyton Manning had been signed or not, the FO had fully recognized that the WR corps was sorely lacking and new blood needed to be brought in. I'll leave the WR picture at this point as that topic has been well-covered in another thread. Suffice it to say, the 49er receivers are nothing special.

So before we go all crazy about switching QBs in the middle of a winning season, look at the bigger picture and realize that a QB switch at this point in the year would be ludicrous.

Masterpiece... was a pleasure.

Mike Johnson?

Johnson, though relatively inexperience, had at least played the position and the improvement in Smith's play became quickly noticeable. It all goes to show that given the proper coaching he is capable of winning.
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Sky is not falling...but we wont go far into the playoffs if we can't get the passing game to help out the run game

And what have you seen that suggests that we can't?
Originally posted by eastie:
Agree! 5-2 is a real buzz kill...........doh!


5-2 and 1st place in the division is nice but clearly NOT what I was referring to. After all this is a qb controversy thread, is it not? And if 23-53 for 340 yards 1TD and 4 INT over the past two games isn't killing your buzz then pass what you're smoking. I gave Alex a pass all of last season but he's got to pick it up. Even the blindest of supporters cannot deny that. He's alot like tits on a boar anytime we face an above average defense.
[ Edited by NinerG94 on Oct 22, 2012 at 12:58 PM ]
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Riddle me this... If you have the top 5 running option in the NFL and you have the top 12 passing attack in the nfl together with having arguably the best defense in the NFL...why would you pass more than enough to keep the defense honest or when you need to make a big comeback in a short amount of time?

I can't think of a single good reason. Seriously, if you have a solid rationale here, I'd love to hear it.

Easy

You pass to get a lead...

Then you run/pass to keep the lead

unless you are running at 10 yards per attmept
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Sky is not falling...but we wont go far into the playoffs if we can't get the passing game to help out the run game

There is still time for the pass game to get in sync and be much better. Fans can't do a thing to really improve things. What they can do (which is still of no importance) is decide whether to stand with their team as they go to war.. or run around in the background crying gloom-n-doom.
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Sky is not falling...but we wont go far into the playoffs if we can't get the passing game to help out the run game

And what have you seen that suggests that we can't?

So you are saying we are playing at championship level right now?
[ Edited by 49AllTheTime on Oct 22, 2012 at 1:01 PM ]
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Riddle me this... If you have the top 5 running option in the NFL and you have the top 12 passing attack in the nfl together with having arguably the best defense in the NFL...why would you pass more than enough to keep the defense honest or when you need to make a big comeback in a short amount of time?

I can't think of a single good reason. Seriously, if you have a solid rationale here, I'd love to hear it.

Easy

You pass to get a lead...

Then you run/pass to keep the lead

unless you are running at 10 yards per attmept

All you need is a consistent 3.4 yards per carry and you will always score a touchdown on every drive.

So what you're saying is that you have to pass to get a lead..even when your run game is better than your pass game? Your second comment seems in line with my "keeping defenses honest"
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 23,535
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Sky is not falling...but we wont go far into the playoffs if we can't get the passing game to help out the run game

And what have you seen that suggests that we can't?


The Giants game is one that comes to mind. We got behind and had no way of getting back in the game.
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 21,052
Originally posted by Joecool:
I don't give a crap if Kaep comes in or not. Did Walsh assume the team would not make it to another superbowl until 95 after trading Joe.

What is lame is all of these other reasons as to why Alex isn't doing this or that. He doesn't do this or that because that's how he plays. He's not going to light it up and he's not going to have a mental breakdown.

essays can be written as to who's coaching him, what minor weakness his WR's have or this or that...the end will have nothing to do with that. It will have everything to do with the main person involved and that's Alex Smith.
Minor weaknesses?

It can hardly be considered a "minor weakness" when an opponent can take your best wide receiver out of the game with SINGLE COVERAGE. (Crabtree)

We've been through all this in the "receiver" threads. MM, who some consider to be as good or better than Crabtree, would be the #4 receiver for the Giants had he stayed in NY. Moss had to agree to play here for free, no other decent team was interested in him. Williams is, at best, a #4 option in the slot when the team goes to 4 wide outs (something Roman rarely does because he doesn't have four good ones). Those are not MINOr weaknesses. Those are glaring weaknesses as witnessed by the off-season moves. Look at ALL the facts.
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
i think he means the NYG game

Maybe...but I can point out more games where the defense or STs failed and the offense picked up the slack than he can point out games that we lost because of it...something to do with being 13-3 last season and 5-2 this season.

but by all means, if people want to feel the sky is falling, let them.

The sky is not falling, but to say the Pass Ranking is worthless is just ignorant when you consider that going back to 2001 about 70% of the superbowl winners were in the top 15 in passing.There are anomolies like the Ravens/giants/steelers, but none of them were ranked lower than 23rd in passing. Makes even more since when you realize that the last 9 superbowl winners were The Manning Bros/ Brees/ Brady/ Rodgers/ Rothlisberger, all of whom are future hall of famers reputable passing attacks. Im not saying we cant win the superbowl with this formula, but it is very unlikely that we will win it with a 29th ranked passing game.To our credit, we play in a tough division defensively where all the teams are pretty pedestrian in the passing game ( Seahawks (31) Rams (25) Cards (26) ). Id bet money that we dont finish the year ranked 29th.
Originally posted by mayo49:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Sky is not falling...but we wont go far into the playoffs if we can't get the passing game to help out the run game

And what have you seen that suggests that we can't?


The Giants game is one that comes to mind. We got behind and had no way of getting back in the game.

sorry to keep bringin up last years giants game too but......
[ Edited by qwestlove94 on Oct 22, 2012 at 1:07 PM ]
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Sky is not falling...but we wont go far into the playoffs if we can't get the passing game to help out the run game

And what have you seen that suggests that we can't?

So you are saying we are playing at championship level right now?

I'm saying we're winning games. The giants loss was embarassing..and maybe that is sticking in people's minds...but there are things we don't know...like does Alex's drop off have anything to do with his finger being injured? Our team will never let anyone know because it allows them to game plan against the run.

We may not be looking as good as we'd like...but I'll take the ugly wins along with the pretty wins. At the end of the day...it's not a beauty pageant..we just have to keep winning. What's more is our losses appeared to be team losses...you can't just put it on the passing game or more specifically Alex...although I agree that in both losses it/he was a significant factor.
Originally posted by qwestlove94:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
i think he means the NYG game

Maybe...but I can point out more games where the defense or STs failed and the offense picked up the slack than he can point out games that we lost because of it...something to do with being 13-3 last season and 5-2 this season.

but by all means, if people want to feel the sky is falling, let them.

The sky is not falling, but to say the Pass Ranking is worthless is just ignorant when you consider that going back to 2001 about 70% of the superbowl winners were in the top 15 in passing.There are anomolies like the Ravens/giants/steelers, but none of them were ranked lower than 23rd in passing. Makes even more since when you realize that the last 9 superbowl winners were The Manning Bros/ Brees/ Brady/ Rodgers/ Rothlisberger, all of whom are future hall of famers reputable passing attacks. Im not saying we cant win the superbowl with this formula, but it is very unlikely that we will win it with a 29th ranked passing game.To our credit, we play in a tough division defensively where all the teams are pretty pedestrian in the passing game ( Seahawks (31) Rams (25) Cards (26) ). Id bet money that we dont finish the year ranked 29th.

Any idea what the difference in passing yards per game is between us at 29 and whoever is sitting at 20?
Originally posted by qwestlove94:
sorry to keep bringin up last years giants game too but......

You mean the one where we had two fumbles, some bad calls, 1 of our starting WRs and our #2 TE's mouth wired shut?

Yeah, Alex should be able to win with a blind fold and both hands tied behind his back...
Nvm. Just checked. Under 30 yards. We are also 30th in attempts per game (effectively tied for 31st).