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Receivers need to attack the ball!

Originally posted by Faraz80:
Im gonna go out on a limb here.....for those that have been members of this forum since Alex Smith was drafted (or before), how many years has there been a similar thread to this one, blaming receivers ?



See where Im getting at....

I have been here way before Alex was drafted. I wanted us to draft Braylon Edwards because we didn't have any talented WRs. We took Alex and supported the decision but didn't want to see him starting at his young age with a horrible team around him. The following season we picked up Antonio Bryant and in 13 games started he had 40 receptions, 773 yards, 18.3 avg, a long of 72 yards, and 3 TDs. He could've had more yards and TDs if not for some dumb penalties, and was on pace for over 1000 yards if he played the whole season.


I'll see where you're getting at and raise you double.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Joecool:
And we wonder why other QBs have more interceptions but love that Alex does not throw many INTs. All of these WRs we want have dropped or not attacked balls also. Difference is, their QB takes more risks in throwing it up to them which some result in INTs or Incomplete and some result in nice catches. Don't we have one of the best man on man attack the ball receiver ever? One would think he could jog a 10 yard fade and have Alex throw it up. Too bad the first QB who has thrown one to him while he was covered was our backup.

Has Alex threw one to him while he has been covered yet? Answer that question and you will see why our receivers don't attack balls as much as others. It's the law of averages. It's not a high percentage play but takes more than one throw every 3 games for the averages to play out.

You're right those same laws of averages work with wins and losses as well, look how well Romo is doing with wins and losses. I'd rather take the high percentage play than the low percentage play and drive down the field on long drives so that our defense isn't going on the field as much. Now if the opportunity is there and there is 1 on 1 on Moss (law of averages work here as well, he barely sees the field), take the shot.

I think paper's point is, WHEN the ball is thrown in your general direction, you fight for it...want it more than anyone else. You do that and suddenly even a conservative QB like Alex is throwing you darts in the EZ for game winning TD's and building a chemistry with you like he has with VD. Period. As a WR, YOU dictate the QB's confidence in you and you will increase your own law-of-averages...and Roman will probably call more plays your way too where you are the #1 read.

He's the QB...he has the ball in his hands every play. Earn his trust anyway you can...

I don't agree. The QB must provide enough opportunities first. Did Moss need Kaep's trust when he nearly caught a ball in triple coverage? All these guys that we see making incredible catches also drop just as many of those "covered balls" but that drop won't go to the WR because it would be considered a "bad throw" and difficult catch. The QB sets that rhythm up with ball placement. Rarely will you see even the best receivers make amazing catches on poorly placed balls. You always see WR's make incredible catches on very well-placed balls.

We are talking about a QB who has Randy Moss. Does he REALLY need to earn anything when it comes to being able to catch balls over a defender?
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Im gonna go out on a limb here.....for those that have been members of this forum since Alex Smith was drafted (or before), how many years has there been a similar thread to this one, blaming receivers ?



See where Im getting at....

I have been here way before Alex was drafted. I wanted us to draft Braylon Edwards because we didn't have any talented WRs. We took Alex and supported the decision but didn't want to see him starting at his young age with a horrible team around him. The following season we picked up Antonio Bryant and in 13 games started he had 40 receptions, 773 yards, 18.3 avg, a long of 72 yards, and 3 TDs. He could've had more yards and TDs if not for some dumb penalties, and was on pace for over 1000 yards if he played the whole season.


I'll see where you're getting at and raise you double.

He was not anywhere near the stats he got with Tampa the following year (1248 yards). In Tampa Bay, he started 2 more games and caught twice as many balls. That alone tells you that he was capable but was not thrown to enough while Alex was his QB.
[ Edited by Joecool on Oct 29, 2012 at 1:38 PM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Im gonna go out on a limb here.....for those that have been members of this forum since Alex Smith was drafted (or before), how many years has there been a similar thread to this one, blaming receivers ?



See where Im getting at....

I have been here way before Alex was drafted. I wanted us to draft Braylon Edwards because we didn't have any talented WRs. We took Alex and supported the decision but didn't want to see him starting at his young age with a horrible team around him. The following season we picked up Antonio Bryant and in 13 games started he had 40 receptions, 773 yards, 18.3 avg, a long of 72 yards, and 3 TDs. He could've had more yards and TDs if not for some dumb penalties, and was on pace for over 1000 yards if he played the whole season.


I'll see where you're getting at and raise you double.

He was not anywhere near the stats he got with Tampa the following year (1248 yards). In Tampa Bay, he started 2 more games and caught twice as many balls. That alone tells you that he was capable but was not thrown to enough while Alex was his QB.


From all your comments, Im going to assume that there has INDEED been a thread like this every year that Alex has played ball for the Niners.

Which makes you think....are ALL those receivers that played for us really to blame, or should we be taking a closer look at the common denominator here
Originally posted by Joecool:
I don't agree. The QB must provide enough opportunities first. Did Moss need Kaep's trust when he nearly caught a ball in triple coverage? All these guys that we see making incredible catches also drop just as many of those "covered balls" but that drop won't go to the WR because it would be considered a "bad throw" and difficult catch. The QB sets that rhythm up with ball placement. Rarely will you see even the best receivers make amazing catches on poorly placed balls. You always see WR's make incredible catches on very well-placed balls.

We are talking about a QB who has Randy Moss. Does he REALLY need to earn anything when it comes to being able to catch balls over a defender?

Besides two DESIGNED bombs, how much have we even targeted Moss as the #1 read? That has nothing to do with trust. If it was up to the QB, he'd lob a ball up to Randy on every single play. Hell, Moss was Alex's #1 guy all off season. Where trust is earned is with the QB and OC. And right now, Alex has tremendous confidence/trust in VD despite "conservative" offensive philosophies for how many years now? Manningham is a guy who clearly is earning Alex's trust right out of the gate...his injury really hurt us. Would you trust Crabtree, Williams, AJJ, right now? There are just too many factors to focus on just the QB...starting with the offensive philosophy, OC, game plan, play call and THEN execution and they are work backwards too.
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Im gonna go out on a limb here.....for those that have been members of this forum since Alex Smith was drafted (or before), how many years has there been a similar thread to this one, blaming receivers ?



See where Im getting at....

I have been here way before Alex was drafted. I wanted us to draft Braylon Edwards because we didn't have any talented WRs. We took Alex and supported the decision but didn't want to see him starting at his young age with a horrible team around him. The following season we picked up Antonio Bryant and in 13 games started he had 40 receptions, 773 yards, 18.3 avg, a long of 72 yards, and 3 TDs. He could've had more yards and TDs if not for some dumb penalties, and was on pace for over 1000 yards if he played the whole season.


I'll see where you're getting at and raise you double.

He was not anywhere near the stats he got with Tampa the following year (1248 yards). In Tampa Bay, he started 2 more games and caught twice as many balls. That alone tells you that he was capable but was not thrown to enough while Alex was his QB.


From all your comments, Im going to assume that there has INDEED been a thread like this every year that Alex has played ball for the Niners.

Which makes you think....are ALL those receivers that played for us really to blame, or should we be taking a closer look at the common denominator here
Thats when those threads start blaming coaches , then blame this and blame that... but...

AS is playing at Championship level like my friends on the zone said so, i believe them
[ Edited by 49AllTheTime on Oct 29, 2012 at 1:51 PM ]
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Im gonna go out on a limb here.....for those that have been members of this forum since Alex Smith was drafted (or before), how many years has there been a similar thread to this one, blaming receivers ?



See where Im getting at....

I have been here way before Alex was drafted. I wanted us to draft Braylon Edwards because we didn't have any talented WRs. We took Alex and supported the decision but didn't want to see him starting at his young age with a horrible team around him. The following season we picked up Antonio Bryant and in 13 games started he had 40 receptions, 773 yards, 18.3 avg, a long of 72 yards, and 3 TDs. He could've had more yards and TDs if not for some dumb penalties, and was on pace for over 1000 yards if he played the whole season.


I'll see where you're getting at and raise you double.

He was not anywhere near the stats he got with Tampa the following year (1248 yards). In Tampa Bay, he started 2 more games and caught twice as many balls. That alone tells you that he was capable but was not thrown to enough while Alex was his QB.


From all your comments, Im going to assume that there has INDEED been a thread like this every year that Alex has played ball for the Niners.

Which makes you think....are ALL those receivers that played for us really to blame, or should we be taking a closer look at the common denominator here

The common denominator has been a new OC every year. Alex was not named the starter until Rattay was injured behind the horrible players around him. Correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't we go through 5 QBs that season?

What does that tell you?
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Im gonna go out on a limb here.....for those that have been members of this forum since Alex Smith was drafted (or before), how many years has there been a similar thread to this one, blaming receivers ?



See where Im getting at....

I have been here way before Alex was drafted. I wanted us to draft Braylon Edwards because we didn't have any talented WRs. We took Alex and supported the decision but didn't want to see him starting at his young age with a horrible team around him. The following season we picked up Antonio Bryant and in 13 games started he had 40 receptions, 773 yards, 18.3 avg, a long of 72 yards, and 3 TDs. He could've had more yards and TDs if not for some dumb penalties, and was on pace for over 1000 yards if he played the whole season.


I'll see where you're getting at and raise you double.

He was not anywhere near the stats he got with Tampa the following year (1248 yards). In Tampa Bay, he started 2 more games and caught twice as many balls. That alone tells you that he was capable but was not thrown to enough while Alex was his QB.


From all your comments, Im going to assume that there has INDEED been a thread like this every year that Alex has played ball for the Niners.

Which makes you think....are ALL those receivers that played for us really to blame, or should we be taking a closer look at the common denominator here

The common denominator has been a new OC every year. Alex was not named the starter until Rattay was injured behind the horrible players around him. Correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't we go through 5 QBs that season?

What does that tell you?

Tells me... thats why we had the number 1 pick
I wonder why Alex doesn't throw to tight coverage IN PRACTICE.....

We have a good secondary, top 10. Surely that should be confidence inspiring?

Or would it reduce confidence if he threw an INT in practice?
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Im gonna go out on a limb here.....for those that have been members of this forum since Alex Smith was drafted (or before), how many years has there been a similar thread to this one, blaming receivers ?



See where Im getting at....

I have been here way before Alex was drafted. I wanted us to draft Braylon Edwards because we didn't have any talented WRs. We took Alex and supported the decision but didn't want to see him starting at his young age with a horrible team around him. The following season we picked up Antonio Bryant and in 13 games started he had 40 receptions, 773 yards, 18.3 avg, a long of 72 yards, and 3 TDs. He could've had more yards and TDs if not for some dumb penalties, and was on pace for over 1000 yards if he played the whole season.


I'll see where you're getting at and raise you double.

He was not anywhere near the stats he got with Tampa the following year (1248 yards). In Tampa Bay, he started 2 more games and caught twice as many balls. That alone tells you that he was capable but was not thrown to enough while Alex was his QB.


From all your comments, Im going to assume that there has INDEED been a thread like this every year that Alex has played ball for the Niners.

Which makes you think....are ALL those receivers that played for us really to blame, or should we be taking a closer look at the common denominator here

The common denominator has been a new OC every year. Alex was not named the starter until Rattay was injured behind the horrible players around him. Correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't we go through 5 QBs that season?

What does that tell you?


What does that have to do with receivers "attacking the ball" or "dropping passes" ? Unless you're willing to concede by your comments that the receivers are not to blame, and the issue at hand is really BALL PLACEMENT by the QB; therefore, one cannot blame Alex Smith for bad balls because he went through a group of OCs nd none of them taught Alex the fundamentals of ball placement.

Am I getting this right ?
I think we have a good group of receivers right now, we dont have that dominating number 1, although i think if we played Moss as the starter he could become our guy, but the coaching is too stubborn and hard headed to do that, maybe they dont want a bunch of risky throws, maybe they want to save his health for red zone and playoff run. I dont know, but even KW has made plays, a well placed ball on a back shoulder throw and he took it to the house.

I feel we need to put the ball out there more for receivers to make these catches, last year on a nice throw KW made a diving catch against Dallas to give us the lead early in the game. Against the Bengals last year Crabs made a high leaping catch in the back of the End Zone for a TD that got called back even though it was a legitimate TD catch. SO these guys can catch, and Randy can too, we just need to take more calculated shots to them, not horrible risky throws, but see if Alex has this in his game, because they are so few and far between to me it feels like i dont even know if Alex has the confidence to make these NFL Perfect throws. I am seeing it more and more, in tight games with great teams, QB's are relying on throwing to covered WR's but placing the ball perfectly to move the chains. Would love to see this from our team, it really can break a defense.

For all the grief these WR's get they were missed on plays where they were open more than several times against SEA, and although Crabs seemed a little displeased with his pleading the 5th comments, he isnt out there verbally assaulting the conservative playcalling and decision making. Im of the mind that these guys while not the best physically gifted group, can make plays, but under this OC and QB with both of their natures aligned, they will have to come few and far between, and make the most of it when they do.

I do want to draft a AJ green type though, dont know why we got another small fast guy in AJJ, we need a taller quick guy for the future. So far it seems like we had a really poor draft in 2012.
Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:
I wonder why Alex doesn't throw to tight coverage IN PRACTICE.....

We have a good secondary, top 10. Surely that should be confidence inspiring?

Or would it reduce confidence if he threw an INT in practice?
AS is a beast in practice

it's a mental thing to why he doesn't do it in real life.
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
The common denominator has been a new OC every year. Alex was not named the starter until Rattay was injured behind the horrible players around him. Correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't we go through 5 QBs that season?

What does that tell you?

Tells me that we are running out of excuses since we have to go so many years back to find out what is wrong with our QB today. He has the same coaching staff from last year with even more weapons at the WR position!

He will get in gear or get going, this staff has no loyalty to this QB so the team, the team, the team should be fine moving forward.
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Im gonna go out on a limb here.....for those that have been members of this forum since Alex Smith was drafted (or before), how many years has there been a similar thread to this one, blaming receivers ?



See where Im getting at....

I have been here way before Alex was drafted. I wanted us to draft Braylon Edwards because we didn't have any talented WRs. We took Alex and supported the decision but didn't want to see him starting at his young age with a horrible team around him. The following season we picked up Antonio Bryant and in 13 games started he had 40 receptions, 773 yards, 18.3 avg, a long of 72 yards, and 3 TDs. He could've had more yards and TDs if not for some dumb penalties, and was on pace for over 1000 yards if he played the whole season.


I'll see where you're getting at and raise you double.

He was not anywhere near the stats he got with Tampa the following year (1248 yards). In Tampa Bay, he started 2 more games and caught twice as many balls. That alone tells you that he was capable but was not thrown to enough while Alex was his QB.


From all your comments, Im going to assume that there has INDEED been a thread like this every year that Alex has played ball for the Niners.

Which makes you think....are ALL those receivers that played for us really to blame, or should we be taking a closer look at the common denominator here

The common denominator has been a new OC every year. Alex was not named the starter until Rattay was injured behind the horrible players around him. Correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't we go through 5 QBs that season?

What does that tell you?


What does that have to do with receivers "attacking the ball" or "dropping passes" ? Unless you're willing to concede by your comments that the receivers are not to blame, and the issue at hand is really BALL PLACEMENT by the QB; therefore, one cannot blame Alex Smith for bad balls because he went through a group of OCs nd none of them taught Alex the fundamentals of ball placement.

Am I getting this right ?

You were talking about a common denominator so I gave you my answer.

Now as far as ball placement goes even Drew Brees over threw multiple receivers last night. Drew Brees, imagine that? New OCs can definitely effect it because of the new offense being learned causing players to be in the wrong places. Up until Harbaugh and Co. came, our receivers would run routes behind defenders instead of crossing their face.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
I don't agree. The QB must provide enough opportunities first. Did Moss need Kaep's trust when he nearly caught a ball in triple coverage? All these guys that we see making incredible catches also drop just as many of those "covered balls" but that drop won't go to the WR because it would be considered a "bad throw" and difficult catch. The QB sets that rhythm up with ball placement. Rarely will you see even the best receivers make amazing catches on poorly placed balls. You always see WR's make incredible catches on very well-placed balls.

We are talking about a QB who has Randy Moss. Does he REALLY need to earn anything when it comes to being able to catch balls over a defender?

Besides two DESIGNED bombs, how much have we even targeted Moss as the #1 read? That has nothing to do with trust. If it was up to the QB, he'd lob a ball up to Randy on every single play. Hell, Moss was Alex's #1 guy all off season. Where trust is earned is with the QB and OC. And right now, Alex has tremendous confidence/trust in VD despite "conservative" offensive philosophies for how many years now? Manningham is a guy who clearly is earning Alex's trust right out of the gate...his injury really hurt us. Would you trust Crabtree, Williams, AJJ, right now? There are just too many factors to focus on just the QB...starting with the offensive philosophy, OC, game plan, play call and THEN execution and they are work backwards too.

Not sure how much he trusts Vernon. He doesn't throw to Vernon often when Vernon is covered tight. This is the biggest issue with Alex and we all know he rarely does this.

I would bet if Moss, Crabtree or Vernon see more balls when they are not wide open, they make more impressive catches. Lower percentage throws are a numbers game. The odds always favor the WR in one-on-one matchups for the most part. Other QB's make more of these attempts which does result in a few more INT's, but also result in their WR's appears as if they always attack balls. Gotta play the law of averages.

Take a look at Calivin Johnson a couple of weeks ago. He got one catch but was still thrown to 10+ times even in tight coverage. He only came down with one. Does that mean he doesn't attack balls? No.

I find it hard to believe that Crabtree, who is a very aggressive catcher, will not attack balls. Same with Moss (already proven). Manningham has made many difficult catches with Eli.

Now if the reasoning is that Alex needs to trust them...well...I think the problem is more Alex trusting himself or his ball placement on those throws.