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Official Greg "the mad scientist" Roman Express

Originally posted by taney71:
Originally posted by monsterzero789:
I agree he may be the most overrated OC right now.


I can't believe I'm reading some of this stuff.

The guy called a bad game. Too much risk on the option, sure. Went too conservative on the last drive in OT? Yup.

But come on... he's been one of the most innovative playcallers of the last 1.5 years. The plethora of formations he throws at a defense...the ability to make AS look like a good QB...the list goes on and on. The guy has earned the benefit of the doubt.

Give it a rest.
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by taney71:
Originally posted by monsterzero789:
I agree he may be the most overrated OC right now.


I can't believe I'm reading some of this stuff.

The guy called a bad game. Too much risk on the option, sure. Went too conservative on the last drive in OT? Yup.

But come on... he's been one of the most innovative playcallers of the last 1.5 years. The plethora of formations he throws at a defense...the ability to make AS look like a good QB...the list goes on and on. The guy has earned the benefit of the doubt.

Give it a rest.

Leatherface, I agree with you on his innovation and the use of formations and motion to create mismatches However, Roman has had some noticeable bonehead games this year. The Giants game and the first Rams game, Seattle, and this past weekend immediately come to mind where his playcalling has been really questionable and did not have the right offensive game plan in place. I don't think Roman sucks as an OC, I think he is a good OC but I think the media makes him out to be great and at this point, IMO, until playcalling makes the offense more fluid and consistent, I wouldn't put him in the great category of OC's just yet. However if he stays in the bay in 2-3 years the offense could get to that point. typically year 3 of the offense is where it all comes together fluidly.
Originally posted by KegBert:
I just wish he would take every single little cutesie gadget play he has and throw em in the trash.

They just absolutely NEVER work. Even my lil sis realizes they don't work.

How can we all see it but Harbs and Roman seem to be blind to the fact?

Yet, we haven't seen a successful screen, draw, or PA called to beat a blitz all year...

Trash the gimmicks and go with these simple plays, I bet our offensive production picks up significantly just based off adjustments alone. When teams shut down our run, there is nothing ever done to counter it.
[ Edited by TheRatMan13 on Dec 4, 2012 at 10:54 PM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Also agree. When you cut down the field the options are limited as well. I noticed they tried the throw back to VD that Smith used in the playoffs...roll right and throw back left. Unsuccessfully, it was covered and CK did not have an angle for a completion. They had a chance to pick up some needed yardage for the FG but were unable to gain a few yards. I don't care if people are spoiled and believe Akers should make ever 50 yard FG...it's still a long kick.

I am so glad you saw that as well. I, literally, have been waiting for that play ALL YEAR long. We tried it and another variation of it with Walker for the dropped TD pass. I was absolutely blown away by how well VD was covered twice on that play and even Walker to a large degree. Sometimes you just have to tip your cap to the opponent; the Rams were all over it all three times and 9 out of 10 times that play worked for HUGE gains last year. I give Roman credit for finally calling that one three times...like the slants. Like I gave him for finally game planning to get VD the ball in creative fashion against the Bears. It's all the lapses and in between stuff that has me wondering if we can't do significantly better going forward, esp. in the passing game.

I even offered up having Roman game plan the run plays and someone else game plan the passing plays and then Harbaugh signing off on a game plan each week. Or hell, have Alex call his own plays like P.Manning (would love to see this - oh-well). Or when/if CK continues to develop, get to a point where Roman can provide suggestive plays and CK can make the calls in-game based on feel for the game (his experiences for how the defense is playing him/us). I'm at a loss. We just don't have a pro-style passing game to compliment our running game, defense and ST's.

We have CLEARLY been outcoached twice by the Giants and Rams, the Vikings, some close ones with the Hawks, etc. The fact that we're not learning (from our mistakes) is what scares me the most and has me very concerned; that and the fact that teams who can execute with a 4-3, have the blue print for beating us just about every time.

Your last paragraph is bang on we are getting out coached out game planned and are not learning from our mistakes far too often and anyone who can't see it either knows jack about football or is trolling.

And i'm sick of this crap that Jimmy Rae was way worse than Roman. Oh so that means we should be satisfied with Roman who also sucks just as bad as Rae like last Sunday vs lowly Rams. Give me a f**king break! lol
The problem with Roman is his inability to capitalize on playcall adjustments (ie: slants in the last game). He's sooooooo stubborn in thinking his gameplan was correct that he views adjustments as an affront to his genius.

Roman, in some ways, is replicating some of the issues SC is having with BOTH Kiffins. Pride is blinding the ability to adapt, causing serious issues with the game playcalling.
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by taney71:
Originally posted by monsterzero789:
I agree he may be the most overrated OC right now.


I can't believe I'm reading some of this stuff.

The guy called a bad game. Too much risk on the option, sure. Went too conservative on the last drive in OT? Yup.

But come on... he's been one of the most innovative playcallers of the last 1.5 years. The plethora of formations he throws at a defense...the ability to make AS look like a good QB...the list goes on and on. The guy has earned the benefit of the doubt.

Give it a rest.

Agreed. Coaches have bad days too and the playcalling against the Rams wasn't his best moment.

All these views about how we should root for him to find another job are shortsighted and knee-jerk. He's still one of the best OCs in the league.
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by taney71:
Originally posted by monsterzero789:
I agree he may be the most overrated OC right now.


I can't believe I'm reading some of this stuff.

The guy called a bad game. Too much risk on the option, sure. Went too conservative on the last drive in OT? Yup.

But come on... he's been one of the most innovative playcallers of the last 1.5 years. The plethora of formations he throws at a defense...the ability to make AS look like a good QB...the list goes on and on. The guy has earned the benefit of the doubt.

Give it a rest.

Innovative in the run game, I'll give you that. But the passing game has been horrendous and the regression each week and conservative actions by CK more and more each week is a pretty good indication Alex was not the real issue with our passing game. It is the conservative philosophy from HaRoman and poor game planning and an inability to adjust in-game and at half time. The formula for beating us has now been faxed to all of our opponents no matter who is at the QB position. We give him credit when credit is due but the aforementioned issues has single handily cost us 4 games this year and have pounded Gore into, yet, another injury-plagued season and we certainly have not taken advantage of all the weapons/talent we have on offense.

Aside from that, his game plan puts enormous pressure on the OL which is below average in pass protection anyhow and as a result, continues to force our backs and TE's to stay in often to provide addition (max) protection which eliminate receiving options...then we're forced to run into the brick wall.

His inability to have a plan B is obvious by now as is his inability to get the ball in the hands of our best receivers consistently (and develop a good rhythm with the QB). The "slow-death" approach is fine if you can sustain it and get everyone involved early and often. If not, the receivers remain cold and unmotivated and leading the league in drops is a direct result of this, IMHO.

Then, if you want to talk about the type of offense this is (go back to my previous posts in this thread) you will see we are actually more of the Anti-WCO. It's so odd Gruden (a pure WCO guy) himself said he has no idea what the heck this offense is. And looking at his history/background, it makes senses why he's a ground/pound guy and innovative in the run game with multiple formations, jumbo packages, etc. But NOT in the passing game whatsoever.

Typically I reminded ppl it takes 3 years to install a WCO. But I'm no longer saying that as this is NOT a WCO so I have no idea if this offense will ever work in the NFL or how long it would take to install and for everyone to be on the same page and excel within it (if that's even possible).

The WCO is predicated on creating and exploiting mismatches of the opponent each week and having viable passing options. Our offense is polar opposite. It works in the running game (only) b/c, d/t the salary cap, teams rarely invest heavily along the DL and instead, put their money into LB's and esp. the secondary to compensate for the "passing league." But as you can see, and esp. against a 4-3 active DL (defense), once they stop our run, Roman has no answer for it no matter who the QB is.

That should tell you all you need to know...
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 5, 2012 at 8:04 AM ]
At Stanford didn't Harbaugh have two offensive coordinators: I to game plan for the run and the other for the pass. It looks like he only brought along the run specialist.
Perhaps he needs to bring in a pass specialist. A bit late now, but it needs to be addressed for the future.

I agree with NC. Rhythm seems to be lacking. That may be part of the problem with dropped balls. But a lot of it has also got to do with unsure hands.
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
At Stanford didn't Harbaugh have two offensive coordinators: I to game plan for the run and the other for the pass. It looks like he only brought along the run specialist.
Perhaps he needs to bring in a pass specialist. A bit late now, but it needs to be addressed for the future.

I agree with NC. Rhythm seems to be lacking. That may be part of the problem with dropped balls. But a lot of it has also got to do with unsure hands.

Agreed. I certainly factor in many things with my feelings for Roman such as stupid mental mistakes by players, constant penalties, constant/critical drops, individual blunders, QB play, OL esp. in pass protection, injuries, etc. Lots of factors. But like I highlighted in post #127 in this thread, a LOT of our anemic offense, esp. at critical times and in the passing game in particular, starts with Roman, his plays calls, his game plan and his lack of focus on situational awareness and in-game "flow." He's just not a good chess player and THAT is what you need to be as an OC in the NFL.
Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:
Agreed. Coaches have bad days too and the playcalling against the Rams wasn't his best moment.

All these views about how we should root for him to find another job are shortsighted and knee-jerk. He's still one of the best OCs in the league.


Roman one of the best OC's in the NFL? lol

No he's not. He's got a lot of weapons and has still only produced the 25th ranked passing offense and the 20th ranked offense at converting 3rd down conversions...31st last year in case you missed it.

Cool story bro but a lot of people who know the game of football ain't buying the crap Roman apologists like u are selling.
Originally posted by SkyGod:
Roman one of the best OC's in the NFL? lol

No he's not. He's got a lot of weapons and has still only produced the 25th ranked passing offense and the 20th ranked offense at converting 3rd down conversions...31st last year in case you missed it.

Cool story bro but a lot of people who know the game of football ain't buying the crap Roman apologists like u are selling.

LOL, this. Not sure where these fantasy-time story-tellers coming from but the numbers don't lie and realistically Roman is about a few steps up from Jimmy Raye....which isn't saying much. This offense is still among the worst in the league and the playcalling plays a huge role in that.
Originally posted by SkyGod:
Roman one of the best OC's in the NFL? lol

No he's not. He's got a lot of weapons and has still only produced the 25th ranked passing offense and the 20th ranked offense at converting 3rd down conversions...31st last year in case you missed it.

Cool story bro but a lot of people who know the game of football ain't buying the crap Roman apologists like u are selling.

This he's calling the same gameplan for Kaep that he is for Alex completely oblivious to their skill sets
Originally posted by sincalfaithful:
This he's calling the same gameplan for Kaep that he is for Alex completely oblivious to their skill sets

I don't think this point should be ignored anymore.

Like he called the same running plays for Gore despite the circumstances changing dramatically (Hunter out and no threat of an off-T run and Rams heavily stacking the box and run blitzing the A-gaps).
Originally posted by NCommand:
Innovative in the run game, I'll give you that. But the passing game has been horrendous and the regression each week and conservative actions by CK more and more each week is a pretty good indication Alex was not the real issue with our passing game. It is the conservative philosophy from HaRoman and poor game planning and an inability to adjust in-game and at half time. The formula for beating us has now been faxed to all of our opponents no matter who is at the QB position. We give him credit when credit is due but the aforementioned issues has single handily cost us 4 games this year and have pounded Gore into, yet, another injury-plagued season and we certainly have not taken advantage of all the weapons/talent we have on offense.

Aside from that, his game plan puts enormous pressure on the OL which is below average in pass protection anyhow and as a result, continues to force our backs and TE's to stay in often to provide addition (max) protection which eliminate receiving options...then we're forced to run into the brick wall.

His inability to have a plan B is obvious by now as is his inability to get the ball in the hands of our best receivers consistently (and develop a good rhythm with the QB). The "slow-death" approach is fine if you can sustain it and get everyone involved early and often. If not, the receivers remain cold and unmotivated and leading the league in drops is a direct result of this, IMHO.

Then, if you want to talk about the type of offense this is (go back to my previous posts in this thread) you will see we are actually more of the Anti-WCO. It's so odd Gruden (a pure WCO guy) himself said he has no idea what the heck this offense is. And looking at his history/background, it makes senses why he's a ground/pound guy and innovative in the run game with multiple formations, jumbo packages, etc. But NOT in the passing game whatsoever.

Typically I reminded ppl it takes 3 years to install a WCO. But I'm no longer saying that as this is NOT a WCO so I have no idea if this offense will ever work in the NFL or how long it would take to install and for everyone to be on the same page and excel within it (if that's even possible).

The WCO is predicated on creating and exploiting mismatches of the opponent each week and having viable passing options. Our offense is polar opposite. It works in the running game (only) b/c, d/t the salary cap, teams rarely invest heavily along the DL and instead, put their money into LB's and esp. the secondary to compensate for the "passing league." But as you can see, and esp. against a 4-3 active DL (defense), once they stop our run, Roman has no answer for it no matter who the QB is.

That should tell you all you need to know...
Excellent analysis, as usual.

It appears to me that Roman started out with the WCO and has added his own wrinkles in the run game aspect of it, to the point where it no longer looks like the WCO.

As to the passing part of the WCO, it doesn't seem that Roman is as adept at utilizing all of it--but part of the delay in implementing it has been the lack (last season) of a WR corps that completely understood the WCO and was capable of executing it. For example, we never saw many slants to WRs last season, at least the slant play seems to be more a regular part of the game plans this season. Same with the checkdown to the FB--we hardly ever saw that last year, but saw it several times in the recent Rams game.

So I'd say that yes, you're absolutely correct in demanding that Roman go back and utilize more of the attack that Bill Walsh made famous. But I'd also suggest that the QBs (Smith AND CK) and receivers are still learning all the fine points and subtle details of the WCO passing attack, and that Roman is still learning how to mesh that passing attack with the running game.

Its correct, is it not, that the passing game aspect of the offense is more complex and complicated than the running attack, and might take more time for all the players to "get it." Any OC is going to be limited by his players' ability to completely understand and execute the offense. This team is still on the upswing, and we have to give some credit to the fact that they're winning while they're still learning and improving.

Bottom line for me: if Akers had not missed two FGs in OT, the team would be 10 and 2 this season, and went 13-3 last season--while still "getting better everyday." I expect they'll continue to improve, and that we haven't seen the best yet.

Thank you, again, for your analysis. You do a great job of observing and figuring out what's going on down on the field, and an equally great job of explaining your points.
[ Edited by oldninerdude on Dec 5, 2012 at 9:46 AM ]