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49ers Wide Receiver Assessment

no matter what, we will have quality WR's across the board,, no more moving safeties to WR , no more guys off the street on the field during critical games, this year, we have DEPTH
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Some people are late bloomers. Maybe AJ will take a while to get into the groove.

If he can learn from Moss & company that would be a good thing. He needs to get w/JRice and get into football condition ASAP.

It's great hearing about Crabs picking up steam and starting to put it all together.

This is VD's year.

Kyle will surprise a lot of people.

No way Ginn doesn't make the team.
then who will return kicks. I understand he is not a great wide out and has done nothing cuz of a injury but we have a bunch of guys who "may" be able to fill the void if he is cut and I am not willing to go into the season :hoping:". No i think he makes the team with cox, the rock and maybe the kid we drafted to back him up but next year he will not be on the team and I expect the kid to do that job next year
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
no matter what, we will have quality WR's across the board,, no more moving safeties to WR , no more guys off the street on the field during critical games, this year, we have DEPTH
no more brian gilmore?, no more jason mc whoever his name was?, no more david boston talk? I miss those days
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
For the most part 1st rounders DO come in and start, and that's pretty much the same regardless of were he was drafted.

I was going to let this rest but just for fun...looked up Jerry Rice stats. He started four of sixteen games his rookie year. That's after the 9ers traded up to get him and with Bill Walsh as coach. Evidently Walsh did not agree with you...he made Rice earn his time on the field and Rice did. He had a good year mostly coming off the bench...kind of like Aldon. And before you say how great the 9er receivers were then...they now have two first round picks ahead of him--Moss and Crabtree.

9ersLiferInChicago, most mid-late 1st round WRs DON'T come in and become full-time starters as rookies. WR is one of the toughest positions to transition into the NFL. Lets take a look at the mid-late 1st round WRs since 2001:

2011
(#26) Jonathan Baldwin: 11 games (3 starts)

2010
(#22) Demaryius Thomas: 10 games (2 starts)
(#24) Dez Bryant: 12 games (2 starts)

2009
(#22) Percy Harvin: 15 games (8 starts)
(#29) Hakeem Nicks: 14 games (6 starts)
(#30) Kenny Britt: 16 games (6 starts)

2008
No 1st round WRs

2007
(#27) Robert Meachem: 14 games (3 starts) *he missed his entire rookie season so these are from his 2nd year
(#30) Craig Davis: 14 games (1 start)

2006
(#25) Santonio Holmes: 16 games (4 starts)

2005
(#21) Matt Jones: 16 games (1 start)
(#27) Roddy White: 16 games (8 starts)

2004
(#29) Michael Jenkins: 16 games (0 starts)
(#31) Rashaun Woods: 14 games (0 starts)

2003
(#17) Bryant Johnson: 15 games (8 starts)

2002
(#19) Ashley Lelie: 16 games (1 start)
(#20) Javon Walker: 15 games (2 starts)

2001
(#16) Santana Moss: 5 games (0 starts)
(#25) Freddie Mitchell: 15 games (1 start)
(#30) Reggie Wayne: 13 games (9 starts)

I believe AJ will be a good player for us, but its not a big deal if he doesn't win a starting job this year. Its normal for WRs to be situational/depth players in their rookie seasons. The list above shows that even Pro Bowl WRs needed time to develop when they first entered the league.

AJ's draft pick status won't automatically place him at the top of the depth chart. As I stated earlier in this thread:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Harbaugh has been consistent with the idea that players have to earn their role on the team. If AJ is better than the other WRs in camp/preseason, then HE WILL be a starter. If he isn't, then HE WON'T be a starter. Wherever he ends up on the depth chart will be determined by competition and performance. Harbaugh won't just give him a starting role just because he's a 1st rounder.

If Harbaugh determined depth chart position by draft status, then Aldon Smith would have been starting last season and Kaepernick wouldn't be competing for the #2 job this year.
Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
For the most part 1st rounders DO come in and start, and that's pretty much the same regardless of were he was drafted.

I was going to let this rest but just for fun...looked up Jerry Rice stats. He started four of sixteen games his rookie year. That's after the 9ers traded up to get him and with Bill Walsh as coach. Evidently Walsh did not agree with you...he made Rice earn his time on the field and Rice did. He had a good year mostly coming off the bench...kind of like Aldon. And before you say how great the 9er receivers were then...they now have two first round picks ahead of him--Moss and Crabtree.

9ersLiferInChicago, most mid-late 1st round WRs DON'T come in and become full-time starters as rookies. WR is one of the toughest positions to transition into the NFL. Lets take a look at the mid-late 1st round WRs since 2001:

2011
(#26) Jonathan Baldwin: 11 games (3 starts)

2010
(#22) Demaryius Thomas: 10 games (2 starts)
(#24) Dez Bryant: 12 games (2 starts)

2009
(#22) Percy Harvin: 15 games (8 starts)
(#29) Hakeem Nicks: 14 games (6 starts)
(#30) Kenny Britt: 16 games (6 starts)

2008
No 1st round WRs

2007
(#27) Robert Meachem: 14 games (3 starts) *he missed his entire rookie season so these are from his 2nd year
(#30) Craig Davis: 14 games (1 start)

2006
(#25) Santonio Holmes: 16 games (4 starts)

2005
(#21) Matt Jones: 16 games (1 start)
(#27) Roddy White: 16 games (8 starts)

2004
(#29) Michael Jenkins: 16 games (0 starts)
(#31) Rashaun Woods: 14 games (0 starts)

2003
(#17) Bryant Johnson: 15 games (8 starts)

2002
(#19) Ashley Lelie: 16 games (1 start)
(#20) Javon Walker: 15 games (2 starts)

2001
(#16) Santana Moss: 5 games (0 starts)
(#25) Freddie Mitchell: 15 games (1 start)
(#30) Reggie Wayne: 13 games (9 starts)

I believe AJ will be a good player for us, but its not a big deal if he doesn't win a starting job this year. Its normal for WRs to be situational/depth players in their rookie seasons. The list above shows that even Pro Bowl WRs needed time to develop when they first entered the league.

AJ's draft pick status won't automatically place him at the top of the depth chart. As I stated earlier in this thread:

Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Harbaugh has been consistent with the idea that players have to earn their role on the team. If AJ is better than the other WRs in camp/preseason, then HE WILL be a starter. If he isn't, then HE WON'T be a starter. Wherever he ends up on the depth chart will be determined by competition and performance. Harbaugh won't just give him a starting role just because he's a 1st rounder.

If Harbaugh determined depth chart position by draft status, then Aldon Smith would have been starting last season and Kaepernick wouldn't be competing for the #2 job this year.

All you've proven to me is that you have more time on your hands than I do. I said "For the most part 1st rounders DO come in and start, and that's pretty much the same regardless of were he was drafted." I didn't limit that to WR's. I'm not stupid, I know all rookies have difficulties. But generally, 1st rounders are expected to compete for a starting role. However, given that this team has had dreadful WR production since TO to this very day the expectations for a WR drafted in the 1st for this team won't be to simply come in and just "contribute" or just be a body for depth. They fully expect this kid to come in and be a starter. Otherwise (and this may come as a shock to you) they would not have drafted him, or a WR for that matter, in the 1st. They would have went in another direction. It's just that simple. A.J. has the skill-set to come in and out play every WR on the roster. All he needs is the reps. A.J. is not the type of WR that the coaching staff is gonna have to dummy-down the playbook for (it's one of the things that Baalke and JH liked about him). There are enough of those guys in the NFL already (e.g. Chad Ochocinco), and frankly many coaching staffs are growing tired of it. So, with decent reps, there won't be a need to sit him. The only person with an advantage over him is Crabs, only because he's had more experience with the playbook (which he had better learn). Moss and Manningham have no advantage over him at all. They don't know the playbook no more than A.J. does. Name sake, career numbers, veteran status, and OTA performance won't be a factor with JH like it clearly is with many Zoners, that much we know of JH. Yes, we earned our way to the NFC Title game. But we are still talking about a team who's best WR has been disappointing at best, and with no clear #2 behind him. So, under those circumstances, I'd say that A.J's chances of being no worse than the #2 on the depth chart are more likely than good.
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
All you've proven to me is that you have more time on your hands than I do.

Why are you so offended? We're all here to discuss football.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
I said "For the most part 1st rounders DO come in and start, and that's pretty much the same regardless of were he was drafted." I didn't limit that to WR's.

But this particular thread is limited to WRs because we're talking about WIDE RECEIVERS. Do 1st rounders at other positions have anything to do with this topic? No.


Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
But generally, 1st rounders are expected to compete for a starting role.

Yes, they're expected to compete for a starting role...but that doesn't mean they'll be given a starting role. I posted a list of mid-late 1st round WRs who were expected to compete and start for their respective teams, yet all of those WRs ended up becoming depth players during their rookie seasons. 1st rounders aren't always inserted into the starting lineup their rookie season.


Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
However, given that this team has had dreadful WR production since TO to this very day the expectations for a WR drafted in the 1st for this team won't be to simply come in and just "contribute" or just be a body for depth. They fully expect this kid to come in and be a starter. Otherwise (and this may come as a shock to you) they would not have drafted him, or a WR for that matter, in the 1st.

Obviously they expect him to be a starter some day, but that doesn't mean he's automatically a starter from day 1. This may come as a shock to you, but there is football beyond the 2012 season. Baalke & Harbaugh aren't just drafting for this year only. The 1st round is used to select prospects who will become eventual impact players long term, its not limited to prospects who's gonna start right away as a rookie. That's why sometimes you see raw talent go in the 1st round ahead of polished players on draft day. Of course teams hope their 1st rounders produce immediately, but the reality is that most rookies aren't ready to start right out the gate. And haven't you heard of the concept of grooming a player to become the eventual starter?

If AJ can earn a starting job from day 1, that's great. However, he doesn't have to be a starter in his 1st season if he isn't the best option yet.


Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
A.J. has the skill-set to come in and out play every WR on the roster. All he needs is the reps. A.J. is not the type of WR that the coaching staff is gonna have to dummy-down the playbook for (it's one of the things that Baalke and JH liked about him). There are enough of those guys in the NFL already (e.g. Chad Ochocinco), and frankly many coaching staffs are growing tired of it. So, with decent reps, there won't be a need to sit him.

I'm not doubting AJ's talent. In fact, I believe he'll eventually become the best WR from this draft class. But as we both agreed, rookies usually need time to develop. Transitioning from college to the NFL isn't always about pure talent. Aldon Smith had the skill set to come in and out play Brooks and Haralson last year, yet Harbaugh felt he needed to contribute as a situational player. Jerry Rice had the skillset to come in and outplay Dwight Clark and Freddie Solomon, yet Walsh felt he needed to contribute as a situational player as well.

As much as you refuse to accept it, sitting a rookie DOES make a difference and allows for a smoother adjustment to the pro game.


Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
The only person with an advantage over him is Crabs, only because he's had more experience with the playbook (which he had better learn). Moss and Manningham have no advantage over him at all. They don't know the playbook no more than A.J. does.

Moss & Manningham have an advantage in NFL experience. But other than that, I agree.


Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Name sake, career numbers, veteran status, and OTA performance won't be a factor with JH like it clearly is with many Zoners, that much we know of JH.

Agreed. That's a point that I made previously as well. Harbaugh will allow the players to earn their roles on the team. You mentioned name sake, career numbers, veteran status, and OTA performance but I also wanna include draft status to that list. You insisted that AJ would likely be a starter since he was this year's 1st round pick but that doesn't matter at the end of the day. Competition and camp/preseason performance will determine the depth chart standing, nothing else.




Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Yes, we earned our way to the NFC Title game. But we are still talking about a team who's best WR has been disappointing at best, and with no clear #2 behind him. So, under those circumstances, I'd say that A.J's chances of being no worse than the #2 on the depth chart are more likely than good.

That's a fair assessment.

I didn't make any WR depth chart predictions because I think the competition is wide open. Moss, Manningham, and AJ have played 0 regular season snaps with this team so we don't know how well any of those guys will perform in this system. I do believe that our WR situation will be significantly better and Harbaugh will find creative ways to utilize all our receivers.
[ Edited by candlestick49er on Jun 19, 2012 at 11:37 PM ]
I was just concluding that you, 9ersLiferInChicago, must not think very highly of Moss or Manningham... and that maybe this is why you are pushing so hard on the AJJ crusade. Then I read this...

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
The only person with an advantage over him is Crabs, only because he's had more experience with the playbook (which he had better learn). Moss and Manningham have no advantage over him at all. They don't know the playbook no more than A.J. does.

I just don't know how you can think this. It's not a problem for me if you do, but I just have to disagree. I am also wondering why Kyle W isn't included, as he like Crabtree have an advantage of better knowing the playbook and QB.

Just let me ask you this... week 1 vs GB.. the score is 24-28 and we are down, but are in scoring range at the 20 with a minute left. You would really prefer AJJ on the field rather than Moss or Manningham? NFL experience should not be dismissed here... not for a legit SB run.
Originally posted by candlestick49er:
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
However, given that this team has had dreadful WR production since TO to this very day the expectations for a WR drafted in the 1st for this team won't be to simply come in and just "contribute" or just be a body for depth. They fully expect this kid to come in and be a starter. Otherwise (and this may come as a shock to you) they would not have drafted him, or a WR for that matter, in the 1st.

Obviously they expect him to be a starter some day, but that doesn't mean he's automatically a starter from day 1. This may come as a shock to you, but there is football beyond the 2012 season. Baalke & Harbaugh aren't just drafting for this year only. The 1st round is used to select prospects who will become eventual impact players long term, its not limited to prospects who's gonna start right away as a rookie. That's why sometimes you see raw talent go in the 1st round ahead of polished players on draft day. Of course teams hope their 1st rounders produce immediately, but the reality is that most rookies aren't ready to start right out the gate. And haven't you heard of the concept of grooming a player to become the eventual starter?

If AJ can earn a starting job from day 1, that's great. However, he doesn't have to be a starter in his 1st season if he isn't the best option yet.

"If the 49ers wanted to invest their first-round pick in a position that had a greater chance of making a first-year impact, it's unlikely they would've drafted a wide receiver. So look at the selection of A.J. Jenkins as an investment for future seasons. "

http://www.csnbayarea.com/football-san-francisco-niners/niners-talk/Crabtree-Moss-set-the-pace-for-all-49ers?blockID=728386&feedID=5936
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
no matter what, we will have quality WR's across the board,, no more moving safeties to WR , no more guys off the street on the field during critical games, this year, we have DEPTH
no more brian gilmore?, no more jason mc whoever his name was?, no more david boston talk? I miss those days

are you saying swain won't make the team?

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1222249-nfl-2012-which-teams-have-the-most-talent-at-each-position#/articles/1222249-nfl-2012-which-teams-have-the-most-talent-at-each-position/page/4
The San Francisco passing game was hot and cold in 2011, but if that happens in 2012, it won't be because of a lack of talent at receiver or tight end. The 49ers added Randy Moss, Mario Manningham and A.J. Jenkins to complement Michael Crabtree. Toss in stud tight ends Vernon Davis and Delanie Walker for good measure, and Alex Smith has no excuses for anything but an amazing year.

Matt Miller is a B/R writer, not a 49ers homer (as far as I know). He has the 49ers' receivers and TEs ranked as THIRD BEST corps in the league. For what it's worth.
Originally posted by ninermedic:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1222249-nfl-2012-which-teams-have-the-most-talent-at-each-position#/articles/1222249-nfl-2012-which-teams-have-the-most-talent-at-each-position/page/4
The San Francisco passing game was hot and cold in 2011, but if that happens in 2012, it won't be because of a lack of talent at receiver or tight end. The 49ers added Randy Moss, Mario Manningham and A.J. Jenkins to complement Michael Crabtree. Toss in stud tight ends Vernon Davis and Delanie Walker for good measure, and Alex Smith has no excuses for anything but an amazing year.

Matt Miller is a B/R writer, not a 49ers homer (as far as I know). He has the 49ers' receivers and TEs ranked as THIRD BEST corps in the league. For what it's worth.

i dont know about that GB giants Falcons are clealy better


we have a great one but moss is easily still a ? after not producing at all in 2010 and not playing in 2011
manningham is a decent option but nothing special

and everything else is essentially the same

we still lack a true #1 WR but the difference is this year we maybe have the most dept h at WR
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
i dont know about that GB giants Falcons are clealy better


we have a great one but moss is easily still a ? after not producing at all in 2010 and not playing in 2011
manningham is a decent option but nothing special

and everything else is essentially the same

we still lack a true #1 WR but the difference is this year we maybe have the most dept h at WR
Moss is a true #1, if Crabtree improves even a modest amount he is better than most #2's.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,156
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
i dont know about that GB giants Falcons are clealy better


we have a great one but moss is easily still a ? after not producing at all in 2010 and not playing in 2011
manningham is a decent option but nothing special

and everything else is essentially the same

we still lack a true #1 WR but the difference is this year we maybe have the most dept h at WR
Moss is a true #1, if Crabtree improves even a modest amount he is better than most #2's.
i agree with memphis which is nothing new. why do so many think moss can not be a number one, he is in great shape, he has done nothing so far to make me think he can not play at a high level and be our top guy this year. 35 is not a death sentence for a wide out esp since he had all of last year off.
By the first game of the regular season, I think the WR ranking will be:
  1. Moss
  2. Crabtree
  3. Williams
  4. Jenkins
  5. Ginn
  6. Manningham

Moss ahead of Crabtree because Moss offers unique skills and height.
Manningham offers excellent but not unique skills, and was only #3 on a team that let him go.
Later in the season:
Until someone replaces Ginn as the #1 returner, Manningham will be inactive.
Jenkins will push Williams and Crabtree for playing time.
Originally posted by cciowa:
i agree with memphis which is nothing new. why do so many think moss can not be a number one, he is in great shape, he has done nothing so far to make me think he can not play at a high level and be our top guy this year. 35 is not a death sentence for a wide out esp since he had all of last year off.

im more spectical after reading this http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/58927/randy-moss-impresses-wherever-he-goes


Moss impressed the Vikings when he rejoined them by trade from the Patriots in 2010. Moss wound up making little impact (the Vikings, like the Raiders, had their own issues). "He's had a whirlwind week-and-a-half catching up on a new playbook, and the Vikings were quite pleased with his performance against the New York Jets last week despite the lack of familiarity," the Associated Press reported. "The coaches have noted progress in practice this week, believing he'll be able to be more comfortable with his routes without having to stop and think too much about his assignment." Moss impressed the Tennessee Titans when he joined their team off waivers in 2011. He made almost no impact with the team on the field, however. "When Randy Moss comes into your locker room, he brings something. Guys are seeing that and responding to it," Kerry Collins, then a Titans quarterback, told reporters. "The biggest thing is just the way he's working. You never judge a book by what you hear. You wait and see what a guy is about. He's come in here with a great attitude and ready to work. The guy just wants to win. Period. The end. He'll do whatever it takes to make that happen."