Considering our additions at W.R. How would you rank Crabs as our W.R?

Y'all are making a.big stink about this........ Doesnt it feel good to finally have all this competition from qb to whos gonna play special teams.......this team is friggin stacked with crazy talent... Coaches got alot on their plate.

I trust this organization to make s**t happen!

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
The Future is This IMO.

#1 Jenkins
#2 Manningham
#3 Williams

But to answer the Poll. Crabtree will not be starting.

Williams won't even make the team. There's no way he gets past Moss, Crabtree, Manningham and Jenkins. Then, Ginn will make the roster as a return man. That's 5 receivers, there's no way they roll with 6 on the active roster even though Harbaugh said he could see it happening. That's coach talk - he doesn't want to let it be known that somebody is going to get the boot before they even start training camp. He provides no value on special teams so he won't take Ginn's spot.

As for Crabtree not starting, he's the best receiver on the roster unless Moss returns to form. The only way he doesn't start is if he's hurt.

Thats like, your opinion man.....

Crabtree wasnt even the best WR on the roster last year before Morgan got hurt. He is not the best WR on the roster now.

Like i said. Williams is going to suprise in camp.

so I'm assuming you believe Morgan was better than Crabtree?

I got you to admit you think Kyle Williams is better, so lets see how far this goes

Absolutely Morgan was, and would have continued to be the beter WR last season had Morgan not gotten hurt....Not sure where your going with this. My opinion on crabtree is largely known on these boards. He can have a good game againt the rams and pad his stats, then completely disapear when it counts. I have no love for the guy TBH. I hope im wrong and he has a great season, but i wouldnt hold my breath.

Williams is hated on purely because of the championship game. If he had not made the bonehead plays, this fan base would be touting him as the slot WR we have been looking for. Like i said, the guy had one less TD than Crabtree in way more limited action. He is gonna suprise and impress.

Well I think it is unfortunate your opinion is so well known around the boards (funny you say that with a degree of pride)..I have no desire to argue about this because it would be a very dull debate...I'll just point out a few things.
-For the third year in a row, Crabtree missed camp and yet still remained a starter. Morgan was the #3 going into 2011. So, your opinion seems at odds with the 49ers coaching staff. Couldn't Morgan at least take the spot of a guy who can't attend camp? One would think so, if he was truly better.
-Statistically, Morgan couldn't hold Crabtree's jockstrap, which sadly doesn't even say much. Why don't you look at the difference in their # of 1st down receptions, it isnt even close. not to mention catches and yards
-Harbaugh always praised Crabtree for his work ethic and overall commitment. Look at his comments on how Crabtree saved Christmas..
-it doesn't mean anything to say Morgan was better than Crabtree in 2011 before he got injured, since Crabtree missed a lot of time early on and started to get back into form only after Morgan went down.



I'll go as far as to say that we might not have gotten to the NFC Championship game if it weren't for Crabtree. Ppl will read that and laugh, since he didn't produce in the playoffs. But the smart ones know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the catch in Seattle. We lose that game without that catch, barring a miracle. Losing that game takes us to the Superdome. We probably lose there. Got the picture?

First, Had Edwards been what he was supposed to be, and Morgan not gotten hurt, Crabtree would have been the #3 last season.

- As far as missing Camp and remaining the starter. That wont happen this year i promise that.

-As far as your last paragraph, Kyle Williams made the crack back block that sprung alex smith on the bootleg....If he all of a suden the reason we went to the championship game? 99% of that comes out of Harbaughs mouth is coach speak. Get used to it. The fact is crabtree was aweful all season long, untell the end of the season where he padded his #'s against NFC west opponents, then he disapeared again against top talent in the playoffs.

So if Edwards was legit and Morgan wasn't hurt, Crabs woulda been #3...excuse me if i missed something, but what evidence do you have for this? Is it just your opinion? that was a rhetorical question, obviously it's your opinion (that everyyyybody knows well around here, ya i gotcha)

call it coach speak if you'd like; you are sort of obligated to feel that way since Harbaugh's comments at face value severely undermine your position (i'm reluctant to even call it that, since you are apparently incapable of forming an argument to justify your opinion). Go back and watch the game, and then ask yourself how likely we would have won had he not caught that. It would have been 3rd and 17 with an incomplete pass. But go ahead and proceed with biased judgment. Either way, most fans disagree with you, so not all is wrong in the world. Crabtree was solid last year but not great, and most people are willing to see what he can do this year with the expectation that he will be in camp.


A very reasonable position, if you aren't a Crabtree fan, is to suspend judgment for one more year.

And about the Williams block...haha man, you seem to misunderstand a very simple point. Our victory in Seattle gave us a first round bye and home field advantage. Not too likely we would have beat the Saints in Superdome, though not impossible. But they were scoring 40+ at home. Anyways, I'm not literally saying that Crabtree, in and of himself, was the reason we played in the NFCCG. But he did have a significant role in the shaping the course of events leading to that. And one should take that for what it's worth, honor every fact.

Prove that he wouldnt have been #3? The fact is Edwards and Morgan were the starters week 1. Morgan was having a great season up until the point that he got hurt. Edwards was a flop. Your opinion that he was #1 is just as much assumption as mine, except well, he actually was #3 week one so....

You constantly say that everything i state is opinion and cant argue with proof, while attacking my character as a fan at the same time, yet then you come in and do the same thing. And actually i have presented several facts pointing to his regression last season.

we will have to agree to disagree.

All I wanted from you was an argument, as i enjoy a good debate, but you keep putting forth things that are either untrue or which obfuscate reality. The latter can be said about your comments on Morgan, which I'll come back to...I was not making an opinion about Crabtree's roster status, it was very well documented that he would have started had it not been for his injury. You can try proving me wrong but you will fail. When I say prove he would've been #3, I'm saying show me some article or something a coach said which lends itself to that. He didn't play week 2 against Dallas because he realized his body/foot weren't ready early on in the Seattle game.

I'm not attacking your character as a fan, but I care about my team enough to call out irrational comments made about them. I honestly would love for you to educate me, if you could, on his "regression" last season (not just playoffs). But about Morgan again, in what way/shape/form was he having a 'great' year before injury? If you carry out his stats from the 5 games he played, in a season he would have had 48 catches for about 700 yds and 3 tds.

Also, why do you not give any value to blocking, since that is vital in our Offensive system? You think AJ Jenkins, Manningham, and Williams will provide enough on that front to satisfy Harbaugh? If so you are out of your mind. They are small guys. Crabtree, if anything, turned into a very robust blocker last year. You ought to acknowledge this.
If egos were important I'd agree to disagree, for no one wants to be wrong. Putting egos aside, it seems unlikely you will come up with something to salvage your very weak position. Sorry to bombard you with reason, but when you make such a radical comment like that, saying Crabs will be #4 and overtaken by Williams, you gotta be ready to do the dirty work man, give some real substance instead of personal feelings and extreme speculation.

I do agree that Crabtree has stepped up his blocking game. Have acknowledged that fact in several crabtree threads, Just not this one. He is a good blocker for a WR. But TBH Blocking from the WR position is so overrated on these boards and goes back to the singeltary mentality of useing WR's as blockers.

And actually you did attack my character as a fan. If you go and check any pf my posts reagrding other players you will see generally i take a levelheaded unbiased rational aproach to my niners fandom. Personally i feel that i am being honest to myself and what i see out of Crabtree. Dont feel that my biases are effecting my opinions, but i guess that could be the case.

I have posted several times about why i think crabtree has regressed in this thread alone providing stats. He had a lower average, Less TD's which 3 of 4 came against the rams, and his numbers against talented teams were garbage. Alot of people see his stats as coming on at the end of the season. I see them as padded due to weak NFC west competion. I feel this way due to his disapearance once again against top talent in the playoffs.

Your comment about calling out Irrational comments shows me that you are more passionate about the argument than i am. Maybe your passion blinds you to some of his shortcomings.

his avg and tds went down, yet catches and yards increased. Vernon Davis' avg went down by 5 yards (significant drop) and had less tds as well, so by your reasoning he also regressed. The more likely explanation for these diminished stats is that we ran a ball control offense limiting throws down the field. You cannot accurately break down a player's game solely through those two stats. Alex Smith threw only 17 tds last year and this was largely because Harbaugh wanted to avoid turnovers especially in the red zone area; our D was good enough let David Akers do most of the scoring.


Again, why not allow one more year, a full offseason with Harbaugh, before making a definitive judgment.

And yes, I am passionate about this matter, as it is a 49er matter and a football matter first and foremost. I like these things. I think them through, perhaps spend too much time doing so. Passion generally drives people to delve into something, to see it in all sides and really understand it. There wouldn't be intelligent discussion if the people involved lacked a passion in the matter. So I hope for your sake as a fan who presumably likes to discuss, you find the passion.That I like Crabtree does not blind me to the fact he may never be a #1, but I think most Niner fans would agree he could be a solid #2 and perhaps a good #3 at worst.A #4 behind K Williams is just bizarre speculation.

But if passion is blinding me from seeing Crabtree is a #4 on our team, then what is guiding you to project Kyle Williams beating him out? Cool , level-headed fandom?

I understand your point. Like i said in the previous post, my biases very well could be effecting my view towards Crabtree.

I understand your point about VD's stats as well. But his stats continued to rise as the season went on, and in the playoffs he exploded when it mattered most.

Also its not that i see Crabtree as being a #4 behind Williams. Its that i see a biger upside having Williams in the slot over Crabtree. I see Jenkins and Manningham as the future #1 and #2, then i see Williams being the best option in the slot. again all personal opinion, i understand that.

I am very passionate about 49ers football as well. 49ers football and LA Kings Hockey are the only things that occupy my free time. Sounds like two passionate fans who see differant things. If you feel im an idiot based on my opinion of Crabtree i am fine with that, and like i said it is my opinion, but Crabtree came in with a chip on his shoulder and IMO has disapointed. I as a fan feel i am entitled to call it like i see it whenever i see it. I dont have to wait a year to voice my opinion right now.

Its no differant then fans calling for Williams head based on ST play, when as a WR he impressed in limited time. He had 1 TD less than crabtree.

I hope that i am wrong about crabtree, i really do. It would be best for the team if he works out. Im really not posting my opinio about him to try to ruffle feathers. Its simply the way i feel based on what i have seen.

With the nature of injuries in the NFL I could see Jenkins pressed into starting this year. I also see the 9ers keeping at least six WRs if Moss is healthy. This list is based on talent and experience with the system. Obviously, Crabtree and WIlliams will have an advantage being in their second camp--but they are less talented than the players above them.

1. Moss (if he resurrects himself)
2. Crabtree (if healthy)
3. Manningham (depends on how quickly he learns the system and bonds with Smith)
4. Williams (Smith will have a rapport with him)
5. Jenkins (moving up the list throughout the year)
6. Ginn (if everyone else is injured)
7. Owusu (replacing someone from PS)

I think there are a few too many people in here HOPING Crabtree would be a bust. Crabtree is a VERY good receiver and I'm glad he's a 9er.

#1
still the best all around reciever and the best chemistry with smith.... he will play the most downs

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
The Future is This IMO.

#1 Jenkins
#2 Manningham
#3 Williams

But to answer the Poll. Crabtree will not be starting.

Williams won't even make the team. There's no way he gets past Moss, Crabtree, Manningham and Jenkins. Then, Ginn will make the roster as a return man. That's 5 receivers, there's no way they roll with 6 on the active roster even though Harbaugh said he could see it happening. That's coach talk - he doesn't want to let it be known that somebody is going to get the boot before they even start training camp. He provides no value on special teams so he won't take Ginn's spot.

As for Crabtree not starting, he's the best receiver on the roster unless Moss returns to form. The only way he doesn't start is if he's hurt.

Thats like, your opinion man.....

Crabtree wasnt even the best WR on the roster last year before Morgan got hurt. He is not the best WR on the roster now.

Like i said. Williams is going to suprise in camp.

so I'm assuming you believe Morgan was better than Crabtree?

I got you to admit you think Kyle Williams is better, so lets see how far this goes

Absolutely Morgan was, and would have continued to be the beter WR last season had Morgan not gotten hurt....Not sure where your going with this. My opinion on crabtree is largely known on these boards. He can have a good game againt the rams and pad his stats, then completely disapear when it counts. I have no love for the guy TBH. I hope im wrong and he has a great season, but i wouldnt hold my breath.

Williams is hated on purely because of the championship game. If he had not made the bonehead plays, this fan base would be touting him as the slot WR we have been looking for. Like i said, the guy had one less TD than Crabtree in way more limited action. He is gonna suprise and impress.

Well I think it is unfortunate your opinion is so well known around the boards (funny you say that with a degree of pride)..I have no desire to argue about this because it would be a very dull debate...I'll just point out a few things.
-For the third year in a row, Crabtree missed camp and yet still remained a starter. Morgan was the #3 going into 2011. So, your opinion seems at odds with the 49ers coaching staff. Couldn't Morgan at least take the spot of a guy who can't attend camp? One would think so, if he was truly better.
-Statistically, Morgan couldn't hold Crabtree's jockstrap, which sadly doesn't even say much. Why don't you look at the difference in their # of 1st down receptions, it isnt even close. not to mention catches and yards
-Harbaugh always praised Crabtree for his work ethic and overall commitment. Look at his comments on how Crabtree saved Christmas..
-it doesn't mean anything to say Morgan was better than Crabtree in 2011 before he got injured, since Crabtree missed a lot of time early on and started to get back into form only after Morgan went down.



I'll go as far as to say that we might not have gotten to the NFC Championship game if it weren't for Crabtree. Ppl will read that and laugh, since he didn't produce in the playoffs. But the smart ones know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the catch in Seattle. We lose that game without that catch, barring a miracle. Losing that game takes us to the Superdome. We probably lose there. Got the picture?

First, Had Edwards been what he was supposed to be, and Morgan not gotten hurt, Crabtree would have been the #3 last season.

- As far as missing Camp and remaining the starter. That wont happen this year i promise that.

-As far as your last paragraph, Kyle Williams made the crack back block that sprung alex smith on the bootleg....If he all of a suden the reason we went to the championship game? 99% of that comes out of Harbaughs mouth is coach speak. Get used to it. The fact is crabtree was aweful all season long, untell the end of the season where he padded his #'s against NFC west opponents, then he disapeared again against top talent in the playoffs.

So if Edwards was legit and Morgan wasn't hurt, Crabs woulda been #3...excuse me if i missed something, but what evidence do you have for this? Is it just your opinion? that was a rhetorical question, obviously it's your opinion (that everyyyybody knows well around here, ya i gotcha)

call it coach speak if you'd like; you are sort of obligated to feel that way since Harbaugh's comments at face value severely undermine your position (i'm reluctant to even call it that, since you are apparently incapable of forming an argument to justify your opinion). Go back and watch the game, and then ask yourself how likely we would have won had he not caught that. It would have been 3rd and 17 with an incomplete pass. But go ahead and proceed with biased judgment. Either way, most fans disagree with you, so not all is wrong in the world. Crabtree was solid last year but not great, and most people are willing to see what he can do this year with the expectation that he will be in camp.


A very reasonable position, if you aren't a Crabtree fan, is to suspend judgment for one more year.

And about the Williams block...haha man, you seem to misunderstand a very simple point. Our victory in Seattle gave us a first round bye and home field advantage. Not too likely we would have beat the Saints in Superdome, though not impossible. But they were scoring 40+ at home. Anyways, I'm not literally saying that Crabtree, in and of himself, was the reason we played in the NFCCG. But he did have a significant role in the shaping the course of events leading to that. And one should take that for what it's worth, honor every fact.

Prove that he wouldnt have been #3? The fact is Edwards and Morgan were the starters week 1. Morgan was having a great season up until the point that he got hurt. Edwards was a flop. Your opinion that he was #1 is just as much assumption as mine, except well, he actually was #3 week one so....

You constantly say that everything i state is opinion and cant argue with proof, while attacking my character as a fan at the same time, yet then you come in and do the same thing. And actually i have presented several facts pointing to his regression last season.

we will have to agree to disagree.

All I wanted from you was an argument, as i enjoy a good debate, but you keep putting forth things that are either untrue or which obfuscate reality. The latter can be said about your comments on Morgan, which I'll come back to...I was not making an opinion about Crabtree's roster status, it was very well documented that he would have started had it not been for his injury. You can try proving me wrong but you will fail. When I say prove he would've been #3, I'm saying show me some article or something a coach said which lends itself to that. He didn't play week 2 against Dallas because he realized his body/foot weren't ready early on in the Seattle game.

I'm not attacking your character as a fan, but I care about my team enough to call out irrational comments made about them. I honestly would love for you to educate me, if you could, on his "regression" last season (not just playoffs). But about Morgan again, in what way/shape/form was he having a 'great' year before injury? If you carry out his stats from the 5 games he played, in a season he would have had 48 catches for about 700 yds and 3 tds.

Also, why do you not give any value to blocking, since that is vital in our Offensive system? You think AJ Jenkins, Manningham, and Williams will provide enough on that front to satisfy Harbaugh? If so you are out of your mind. They are small guys. Crabtree, if anything, turned into a very robust blocker last year. You ought to acknowledge this.
If egos were important I'd agree to disagree, for no one wants to be wrong. Putting egos aside, it seems unlikely you will come up with something to salvage your very weak position. Sorry to bombard you with reason, but when you make such a radical comment like that, saying Crabs will be #4 and overtaken by Williams, you gotta be ready to do the dirty work man, give some real substance instead of personal feelings and extreme speculation.

I do agree that Crabtree has stepped up his blocking game. Have acknowledged that fact in several crabtree threads, Just not this one. He is a good blocker for a WR. But TBH Blocking from the WR position is so overrated on these boards and goes back to the singeltary mentality of useing WR's as blockers.

And actually you did attack my character as a fan. If you go and check any pf my posts reagrding other players you will see generally i take a levelheaded unbiased rational aproach to my niners fandom. Personally i feel that i am being honest to myself and what i see out of Crabtree. Dont feel that my biases are effecting my opinions, but i guess that could be the case.

I have posted several times about why i think crabtree has regressed in this thread alone providing stats. He had a lower average, Less TD's which 3 of 4 came against the rams, and his numbers against talented teams were garbage. Alot of people see his stats as coming on at the end of the season. I see them as padded due to weak NFC west competion. I feel this way due to his disapearance once again against top talent in the playoffs.

Your comment about calling out Irrational comments shows me that you are more passionate about the argument than i am. Maybe your passion blinds you to some of his shortcomings.

his avg and tds went down, yet catches and yards increased. Vernon Davis' avg went down by 5 yards (significant drop) and had less tds as well, so by your reasoning he also regressed. The more likely explanation for these diminished stats is that we ran a ball control offense limiting throws down the field. You cannot accurately break down a player's game solely through those two stats. Alex Smith threw only 17 tds last year and this was largely because Harbaugh wanted to avoid turnovers especially in the red zone area; our D was good enough let David Akers do most of the scoring.


Again, why not allow one more year, a full offseason with Harbaugh, before making a definitive judgment.

And yes, I am passionate about this matter, as it is a 49er matter and a football matter first and foremost. I like these things. I think them through, perhaps spend too much time doing so. Passion generally drives people to delve into something, to see it in all sides and really understand it. There wouldn't be intelligent discussion if the people involved lacked a passion in the matter. So I hope for your sake as a fan who presumably likes to discuss, you find the passion.That I like Crabtree does not blind me to the fact he may never be a #1, but I think most Niner fans would agree he could be a solid #2 and perhaps a good #3 at worst.A #4 behind K Williams is just bizarre speculation.

But if passion is blinding me from seeing Crabtree is a #4 on our team, then what is guiding you to project Kyle Williams beating him out? Cool , level-headed fandom?

I understand your point. Like i said in the previous post, my biases very well could be effecting my view towards Crabtree.

I understand your point about VD's stats as well. But his stats continued to rise as the season went on, and in the playoffs he exploded when it mattered most.

Also its not that i see Crabtree as being a #4 behind Williams. Its that i see a biger upside having Williams in the slot over Crabtree. I see Jenkins and Manningham as the future #1 and #2, then i see Williams being the best option in the slot. again all personal opinion, i understand that.

I am very passionate about 49ers football as well. 49ers football and LA Kings Hockey are the only things that occupy my free time. Sounds like two passionate fans who see differant things. If you feel im an idiot based on my opinion of Crabtree i am fine with that, and like i said it is my opinion, but Crabtree came in with a chip on his shoulder and IMO has disapointed. I as a fan feel i am entitled to call it like i see it whenever i see it. I dont have to wait a year to voice my opinion right now.

Its no differant then fans calling for Williams head based on ST play, when as a WR he impressed in limited time. He had 1 TD less than crabtree.

I hope that i am wrong about crabtree, i really do. It would be best for the team if he works out. Im really not posting my opinio about him to try to ruffle feathers. Its simply the way i feel based on what i have seen.

the way you stated your view here is much more reasonable , and that's something worth thinking about. IMO Williams could indeed being better in the slot than Crabtree, not sure if that's where Crabtree would be best. I still see him as a more of a flanker. I think the the addition of all these receivers, on top of his post-season struggles, will really light a fire under his ass. Well, I'd hope so. I think any sense of entitlement that he may have had before will be gone come training camp this year. And I agree with you that Williams was impressive in his limited time at WR, I wonder if we'll keep 6...

Originally posted by cciowa:
I do not know untill they are in camp and practice going side by side. I hope that is not a cop out but hope you like my honesty. Do any of us really know because that area looks 100 per cent different than last year at this time

this

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
The Future is This IMO.

#1 Jenkins
#2 Manningham
#3 Williams

But to answer the Poll. Crabtree will not be starting.

Williams won't even make the team. There's no way he gets past Moss, Crabtree, Manningham and Jenkins. Then, Ginn will make the roster as a return man. That's 5 receivers, there's no way they roll with 6 on the active roster even though Harbaugh said he could see it happening. That's coach talk - he doesn't want to let it be known that somebody is going to get the boot before they even start training camp. He provides no value on special teams so he won't take Ginn's spot.

As for Crabtree not starting, he's the best receiver on the roster unless Moss returns to form. The only way he doesn't start is if he's hurt.

Thats like, your opinion man.....

Crabtree wasnt even the best WR on the roster last year before Morgan got hurt. He is not the best WR on the roster now.

Like i said. Williams is going to suprise in camp.

so I'm assuming you believe Morgan was better than Crabtree?

I got you to admit you think Kyle Williams is better, so lets see how far this goes

Absolutely Morgan was, and would have continued to be the beter WR last season had Morgan not gotten hurt....Not sure where your going with this. My opinion on crabtree is largely known on these boards. He can have a good game againt the rams and pad his stats, then completely disapear when it counts. I have no love for the guy TBH. I hope im wrong and he has a great season, but i wouldnt hold my breath.

Williams is hated on purely because of the championship game. If he had not made the bonehead plays, this fan base would be touting him as the slot WR we have been looking for. Like i said, the guy had one less TD than Crabtree in way more limited action. He is gonna suprise and impress.

Well I think it is unfortunate your opinion is so well known around the boards (funny you say that with a degree of pride)..I have no desire to argue about this because it would be a very dull debate...I'll just point out a few things.
-For the third year in a row, Crabtree missed camp and yet still remained a starter. Morgan was the #3 going into 2011. So, your opinion seems at odds with the 49ers coaching staff. Couldn't Morgan at least take the spot of a guy who can't attend camp? One would think so, if he was truly better.
-Statistically, Morgan couldn't hold Crabtree's jockstrap, which sadly doesn't even say much. Why don't you look at the difference in their # of 1st down receptions, it isnt even close. not to mention catches and yards
-Harbaugh always praised Crabtree for his work ethic and overall commitment. Look at his comments on how Crabtree saved Christmas..
-it doesn't mean anything to say Morgan was better than Crabtree in 2011 before he got injured, since Crabtree missed a lot of time early on and started to get back into form only after Morgan went down.



I'll go as far as to say that we might not have gotten to the NFC Championship game if it weren't for Crabtree. Ppl will read that and laugh, since he didn't produce in the playoffs. But the smart ones know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the catch in Seattle. We lose that game without that catch, barring a miracle. Losing that game takes us to the Superdome. We probably lose there. Got the picture?

First, Had Edwards been what he was supposed to be, and Morgan not gotten hurt, Crabtree would have been the #3 last season.

- As far as missing Camp and remaining the starter. That wont happen this year i promise that.

-As far as your last paragraph, Kyle Williams made the crack back block that sprung alex smith on the bootleg....If he all of a suden the reason we went to the championship game? 99% of that comes out of Harbaughs mouth is coach speak. Get used to it. The fact is crabtree was aweful all season long, untell the end of the season where he padded his #'s against NFC west opponents, then he disapeared again against top talent in the playoffs.

So if Edwards was legit and Morgan wasn't hurt, Crabs woulda been #3...excuse me if i missed something, but what evidence do you have for this? Is it just your opinion? that was a rhetorical question, obviously it's your opinion (that everyyyybody knows well around here, ya i gotcha)

call it coach speak if you'd like; you are sort of obligated to feel that way since Harbaugh's comments at face value severely undermine your position (i'm reluctant to even call it that, since you are apparently incapable of forming an argument to justify your opinion). Go back and watch the game, and then ask yourself how likely we would have won had he not caught that. It would have been 3rd and 17 with an incomplete pass. But go ahead and proceed with biased judgment. Either way, most fans disagree with you, so not all is wrong in the world. Crabtree was solid last year but not great, and most people are willing to see what he can do this year with the expectation that he will be in camp.


A very reasonable position, if you aren't a Crabtree fan, is to suspend judgment for one more year.

And about the Williams block...haha man, you seem to misunderstand a very simple point. Our victory in Seattle gave us a first round bye and home field advantage. Not too likely we would have beat the Saints in Superdome, though not impossible. But they were scoring 40+ at home. Anyways, I'm not literally saying that Crabtree, in and of himself, was the reason we played in the NFCCG. But he did have a significant role in the shaping the course of events leading to that. And one should take that for what it's worth, honor every fact.

Prove that he wouldnt have been #3? The fact is Edwards and Morgan were the starters week 1. Morgan was having a great season up until the point that he got hurt. Edwards was a flop. Your opinion that he was #1 is just as much assumption as mine, except well, he actually was #3 week one so....

You constantly say that everything i state is opinion and cant argue with proof, while attacking my character as a fan at the same time, yet then you come in and do the same thing. And actually i have presented several facts pointing to his regression last season.

we will have to agree to disagree.

All I wanted from you was an argument, as i enjoy a good debate, but you keep putting forth things that are either untrue or which obfuscate reality. The latter can be said about your comments on Morgan, which I'll come back to...I was not making an opinion about Crabtree's roster status, it was very well documented that he would have started had it not been for his injury. You can try proving me wrong but you will fail. When I say prove he would've been #3, I'm saying show me some article or something a coach said which lends itself to that. He didn't play week 2 against Dallas because he realized his body/foot weren't ready early on in the Seattle game.

I'm not attacking your character as a fan, but I care about my team enough to call out irrational comments made about them. I honestly would love for you to educate me, if you could, on his "regression" last season (not just playoffs). But about Morgan again, in what way/shape/form was he having a 'great' year before injury? If you carry out his stats from the 5 games he played, in a season he would have had 48 catches for about 700 yds and 3 tds.

Also, why do you not give any value to blocking, since that is vital in our Offensive system? You think AJ Jenkins, Manningham, and Williams will provide enough on that front to satisfy Harbaugh? If so you are out of your mind. They are small guys. Crabtree, if anything, turned into a very robust blocker last year. You ought to acknowledge this.
If egos were important I'd agree to disagree, for no one wants to be wrong. Putting egos aside, it seems unlikely you will come up with something to salvage your very weak position. Sorry to bombard you with reason, but when you make such a radical comment like that, saying Crabs will be #4 and overtaken by Williams, you gotta be ready to do the dirty work man, give some real substance instead of personal feelings and extreme speculation.

I do agree that Crabtree has stepped up his blocking game. Have acknowledged that fact in several crabtree threads, Just not this one. He is a good blocker for a WR. But TBH Blocking from the WR position is so overrated on these boards and goes back to the singeltary mentality of useing WR's as blockers.

And actually you did attack my character as a fan. If you go and check any pf my posts reagrding other players you will see generally i take a levelheaded unbiased rational aproach to my niners fandom. Personally i feel that i am being honest to myself and what i see out of Crabtree. Dont feel that my biases are effecting my opinions, but i guess that could be the case.

I have posted several times about why i think crabtree has regressed in this thread alone providing stats. He had a lower average, Less TD's which 3 of 4 came against the rams, and his numbers against talented teams were garbage. Alot of people see his stats as coming on at the end of the season. I see them as padded due to weak NFC west competion. I feel this way due to his disapearance once again against top talent in the playoffs.

Your comment about calling out Irrational comments shows me that you are more passionate about the argument than i am. Maybe your passion blinds you to some of his shortcomings.

his avg and tds went down, yet catches and yards increased. Vernon Davis' avg went down by 5 yards (significant drop) and had less tds as well, so by your reasoning he also regressed. The more likely explanation for these diminished stats is that we ran a ball control offense limiting throws down the field. You cannot accurately break down a player's game solely through those two stats. Alex Smith threw only 17 tds last year and this was largely because Harbaugh wanted to avoid turnovers especially in the red zone area; our D was good enough let David Akers do most of the scoring.


Again, why not allow one more year, a full offseason with Harbaugh, before making a definitive judgment.

And yes, I am passionate about this matter, as it is a 49er matter and a football matter first and foremost. I like these things. I think them through, perhaps spend too much time doing so. Passion generally drives people to delve into something, to see it in all sides and really understand it. There wouldn't be intelligent discussion if the people involved lacked a passion in the matter. So I hope for your sake as a fan who presumably likes to discuss, you find the passion.That I like Crabtree does not blind me to the fact he may never be a #1, but I think most Niner fans would agree he could be a solid #2 and perhaps a good #3 at worst.A #4 behind K Williams is just bizarre speculation.

But if passion is blinding me from seeing Crabtree is a #4 on our team, then what is guiding you to project Kyle Williams beating him out? Cool , level-headed fandom?

I understand your point. Like i said in the previous post, my biases very well could be effecting my view towards Crabtree.

I understand your point about VD's stats as well. But his stats continued to rise as the season went on, and in the playoffs he exploded when it mattered most.

Also its not that i see Crabtree as being a #4 behind Williams. Its that i see a biger upside having Williams in the slot over Crabtree. I see Jenkins and Manningham as the future #1 and #2, then i see Williams being the best option in the slot. again all personal opinion, i understand that.

I am very passionate about 49ers football as well. 49ers football and LA Kings Hockey are the only things that occupy my free time. Sounds like two passionate fans who see differant things. If you feel im an idiot based on my opinion of Crabtree i am fine with that, and like i said it is my opinion, but Crabtree came in with a chip on his shoulder and IMO has disapointed. I as a fan feel i am entitled to call it like i see it whenever i see it. I dont have to wait a year to voice my opinion right now.

Its no differant then fans calling for Williams head based on ST play, when as a WR he impressed in limited time. He had 1 TD less than crabtree.

I hope that i am wrong about crabtree, i really do. It would be best for the team if he works out. Im really not posting my opinio about him to try to ruffle feathers. Its simply the way i feel based on what i have seen.

the way you stated your view here is much more reasonable , and that's something worth thinking about. IMO Williams could indeed being better in the slot than Crabtree, not sure if that's where Crabtree would be best. I still see him as a more of a flanker. I think the the addition of all these receivers, on top of his post-season struggles, will really light a fire under his ass. Well, I'd hope so. I think any sense of entitlement that he may have had before will be gone come training camp this year. And I agree with you that Williams was impressive in his limited time at WR, I wonder if we'll keep 6...

I hope we do Carry 6. Injurys happen and i dont want to see us in the same situation as last season.

Also i feel that the main battle could come down to Manningham and Crabtree. I think the club sees jenkins as the #1 in waiting. I dont think they draft him that high if they feel any other way.

If crabtree can beat out Manningham for the #2 spot that would be great. But i see it as whoever between those two doesnt get the start, the loser is expendable. I would rather see KW in the slot than either Crabtree or Manningham.

Now i know alot of people will disagree with that and put Crabtree #1 Manningham #2 and the Jenkins in the slot, but i simply dont think Harbaalke drafted Jenkins to be a slot WR.

Like i said i think the future is #1 Jenkins, #2 Manningham, #3 Williams, But Crabtree and Manningham would be interchangable, may the best man win. I probably should have stated it like this from the begining, but instead simply listed the future order i beleived in, and from there the arguements began and escalated.

Im all for the competition. May the best men win.

He has the talent to be much better than he has showed. With a healthy off-season, hard work and time to learn the nuances of the system, he should be the #1 receiver. From what I have read, he has worked hard when healthy but has just not been healthy enough of the time. He has had a bit of an attitude at some points but seemed to round into a good teammate by the mid-point of the season. Where that puts him on the depth chart only time will tell. I don't see Moss or Manningham being ahead of him. The drafting of Jenkins may have an added advantage of lighting a fire under Crabtree to really crank it up now that he is healthy. If that happens, and Jenkins plays with separation and speed like he did in college, this offense will surprise a lot of people.

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by BayAreaNinersFan:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by 49erRider:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
The Future is This IMO.

#1 Jenkins
#2 Manningham
#3 Williams

But to answer the Poll. Crabtree will not be starting.

Williams won't even make the team. There's no way he gets past Moss, Crabtree, Manningham and Jenkins. Then, Ginn will make the roster as a return man. That's 5 receivers, there's no way they roll with 6 on the active roster even though Harbaugh said he could see it happening. That's coach talk - he doesn't want to let it be known that somebody is going to get the boot before they even start training camp. He provides no value on special teams so he won't take Ginn's spot.

As for Crabtree not starting, he's the best receiver on the roster unless Moss returns to form. The only way he doesn't start is if he's hurt.

Thats like, your opinion man.....

Crabtree wasnt even the best WR on the roster last year before Morgan got hurt. He is not the best WR on the roster now.

Like i said. Williams is going to suprise in camp.

so I'm assuming you believe Morgan was better than Crabtree?

I got you to admit you think Kyle Williams is better, so lets see how far this goes

Absolutely Morgan was, and would have continued to be the beter WR last season had Morgan not gotten hurt....Not sure where your going with this. My opinion on crabtree is largely known on these boards. He can have a good game againt the rams and pad his stats, then completely disapear when it counts. I have no love for the guy TBH. I hope im wrong and he has a great season, but i wouldnt hold my breath.

Williams is hated on purely because of the championship game. If he had not made the bonehead plays, this fan base would be touting him as the slot WR we have been looking for. Like i said, the guy had one less TD than Crabtree in way more limited action. He is gonna suprise and impress.

Well I think it is unfortunate your opinion is so well known around the boards (funny you say that with a degree of pride)..I have no desire to argue about this because it would be a very dull debate...I'll just point out a few things.
-For the third year in a row, Crabtree missed camp and yet still remained a starter. Morgan was the #3 going into 2011. So, your opinion seems at odds with the 49ers coaching staff. Couldn't Morgan at least take the spot of a guy who can't attend camp? One would think so, if he was truly better.
-Statistically, Morgan couldn't hold Crabtree's jockstrap, which sadly doesn't even say much. Why don't you look at the difference in their # of 1st down receptions, it isnt even close. not to mention catches and yards
-Harbaugh always praised Crabtree for his work ethic and overall commitment. Look at his comments on how Crabtree saved Christmas..
-it doesn't mean anything to say Morgan was better than Crabtree in 2011 before he got injured, since Crabtree missed a lot of time early on and started to get back into form only after Morgan went down.



I'll go as far as to say that we might not have gotten to the NFC Championship game if it weren't for Crabtree. Ppl will read that and laugh, since he didn't produce in the playoffs. But the smart ones know what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the catch in Seattle. We lose that game without that catch, barring a miracle. Losing that game takes us to the Superdome. We probably lose there. Got the picture?

First, Had Edwards been what he was supposed to be, and Morgan not gotten hurt, Crabtree would have been the #3 last season.

- As far as missing Camp and remaining the starter. That wont happen this year i promise that.

-As far as your last paragraph, Kyle Williams made the crack back block that sprung alex smith on the bootleg....If he all of a suden the reason we went to the championship game? 99% of that comes out of Harbaughs mouth is coach speak. Get used to it. The fact is crabtree was aweful all season long, untell the end of the season where he padded his #'s against NFC west opponents, then he disapeared again against top talent in the playoffs.

So if Edwards was legit and Morgan wasn't hurt, Crabs woulda been #3...excuse me if i missed something, but what evidence do you have for this? Is it just your opinion? that was a rhetorical question, obviously it's your opinion (that everyyyybody knows well around here, ya i gotcha)

call it coach speak if you'd like; you are sort of obligated to feel that way since Harbaugh's comments at face value severely undermine your position (i'm reluctant to even call it that, since you are apparently incapable of forming an argument to justify your opinion). Go back and watch the game, and then ask yourself how likely we would have won had he not caught that. It would have been 3rd and 17 with an incomplete pass. But go ahead and proceed with biased judgment. Either way, most fans disagree with you, so not all is wrong in the world. Crabtree was solid last year but not great, and most people are willing to see what he can do this year with the expectation that he will be in camp.


A very reasonable position, if you aren't a Crabtree fan, is to suspend judgment for one more year.

And about the Williams block...haha man, you seem to misunderstand a very simple point. Our victory in Seattle gave us a first round bye and home field advantage. Not too likely we would have beat the Saints in Superdome, though not impossible. But they were scoring 40+ at home. Anyways, I'm not literally saying that Crabtree, in and of himself, was the reason we played in the NFCCG. But he did have a significant role in the shaping the course of events leading to that. And one should take that for what it's worth, honor every fact.

Prove that he wouldnt have been #3? The fact is Edwards and Morgan were the starters week 1. Morgan was having a great season up until the point that he got hurt. Edwards was a flop. Your opinion that he was #1 is just as much assumption as mine, except well, he actually was #3 week one so....

You constantly say that everything i state is opinion and cant argue with proof, while attacking my character as a fan at the same time, yet then you come in and do the same thing. And actually i have presented several facts pointing to his regression last season.

we will have to agree to disagree.

All I wanted from you was an argument, as i enjoy a good debate, but you keep putting forth things that are either untrue or which obfuscate reality. The latter can be said about your comments on Morgan, which I'll come back to...I was not making an opinion about Crabtree's roster status, it was very well documented that he would have started had it not been for his injury. You can try proving me wrong but you will fail. When I say prove he would've been #3, I'm saying show me some article or something a coach said which lends itself to that. He didn't play week 2 against Dallas because he realized his body/foot weren't ready early on in the Seattle game.

I'm not attacking your character as a fan, but I care about my team enough to call out irrational comments made about them. I honestly would love for you to educate me, if you could, on his "regression" last season (not just playoffs). But about Morgan again, in what way/shape/form was he having a 'great' year before injury? If you carry out his stats from the 5 games he played, in a season he would have had 48 catches for about 700 yds and 3 tds.

Also, why do you not give any value to blocking, since that is vital in our Offensive system? You think AJ Jenkins, Manningham, and Williams will provide enough on that front to satisfy Harbaugh? If so you are out of your mind. They are small guys. Crabtree, if anything, turned into a very robust blocker last year. You ought to acknowledge this.
If egos were important I'd agree to disagree, for no one wants to be wrong. Putting egos aside, it seems unlikely you will come up with something to salvage your very weak position. Sorry to bombard you with reason, but when you make such a radical comment like that, saying Crabs will be #4 and overtaken by Williams, you gotta be ready to do the dirty work man, give some real substance instead of personal feelings and extreme speculation.

I do agree that Crabtree has stepped up his blocking game. Have acknowledged that fact in several crabtree threads, Just not this one. He is a good blocker for a WR. But TBH Blocking from the WR position is so overrated on these boards and goes back to the singeltary mentality of useing WR's as blockers.

And actually you did attack my character as a fan. If you go and check any pf my posts reagrding other players you will see generally i take a levelheaded unbiased rational aproach to my niners fandom. Personally i feel that i am being honest to myself and what i see out of Crabtree. Dont feel that my biases are effecting my opinions, but i guess that could be the case.

I have posted several times about why i think crabtree has regressed in this thread alone providing stats. He had a lower average, Less TD's which 3 of 4 came against the rams, and his numbers against talented teams were garbage. Alot of people see his stats as coming on at the end of the season. I see them as padded due to weak NFC west competion. I feel this way due to his disapearance once again against top talent in the playoffs.

Your comment about calling out Irrational comments shows me that you are more passionate about the argument than i am. Maybe your passion blinds you to some of his shortcomings.

his avg and tds went down, yet catches and yards increased. Vernon Davis' avg went down by 5 yards (significant drop) and had less tds as well, so by your reasoning he also regressed. The more likely explanation for these diminished stats is that we ran a ball control offense limiting throws down the field. You cannot accurately break down a player's game solely through those two stats. Alex Smith threw only 17 tds last year and this was largely because Harbaugh wanted to avoid turnovers especially in the red zone area; our D was good enough let David Akers do most of the scoring.


Again, why not allow one more year, a full offseason with Harbaugh, before making a definitive judgment.

And yes, I am passionate about this matter, as it is a 49er matter and a football matter first and foremost. I like these things. I think them through, perhaps spend too much time doing so. Passion generally drives people to delve into something, to see it in all sides and really understand it. There wouldn't be intelligent discussion if the people involved lacked a passion in the matter. So I hope for your sake as a fan who presumably likes to discuss, you find the passion.That I like Crabtree does not blind me to the fact he may never be a #1, but I think most Niner fans would agree he could be a solid #2 and perhaps a good #3 at worst.A #4 behind K Williams is just bizarre speculation.

But if passion is blinding me from seeing Crabtree is a #4 on our team, then what is guiding you to project Kyle Williams beating him out? Cool , level-headed fandom?

I understand your point. Like i said in the previous post, my biases very well could be effecting my view towards Crabtree.

I understand your point about VD's stats as well. But his stats continued to rise as the season went on, and in the playoffs he exploded when it mattered most.

Also its not that i see Crabtree as being a #4 behind Williams. Its that i see a biger upside having Williams in the slot over Crabtree. I see Jenkins and Manningham as the future #1 and #2, then i see Williams being the best option in the slot. again all personal opinion, i understand that.

I am very passionate about 49ers football as well. 49ers football and LA Kings Hockey are the only things that occupy my free time. Sounds like two passionate fans who see differant things. If you feel im an idiot based on my opinion of Crabtree i am fine with that, and like i said it is my opinion, but Crabtree came in with a chip on his shoulder and IMO has disapointed. I as a fan feel i am entitled to call it like i see it whenever i see it. I dont have to wait a year to voice my opinion right now.

Its no differant then fans calling for Williams head based on ST play, when as a WR he impressed in limited time. He had 1 TD less than crabtree.

I hope that i am wrong about crabtree, i really do. It would be best for the team if he works out. Im really not posting my opinio about him to try to ruffle feathers. Its simply the way i feel based on what i have seen.

the way you stated your view here is much more reasonable , and that's something worth thinking about. IMO Williams could indeed being better in the slot than Crabtree, not sure if that's where Crabtree would be best. I still see him as a more of a flanker. I think the the addition of all these receivers, on top of his post-season struggles, will really light a fire under his ass. Well, I'd hope so. I think any sense of entitlement that he may have had before will be gone come training camp this year. And I agree with you that Williams was impressive in his limited time at WR, I wonder if we'll keep 6...

WALL OF TEXT

he finally has some legit competition so i think he knows he really has to produce this year. If he doesnt reach 1000 yds...he will be gone or his contract will be restructued

[1] Jenkins [2] manningham [3]crabs [4]moss [5] owusu

=]

Originally posted by JustinNiner:
[1] Jenkins [2] manningham [3]crabs [4]moss [5] owusu

=]

Not sure why people keep rating Manningham over Crabtree. Manningham is an average receiver that should be a #3 at best, just like he was with the Giants. Put Crabtree in a pass-happy offense with Eli and his statistics surpass anything Manningham accomplished. People will see this year when the dude is f**king around and running the wrong routes and just generally doing dumb stuff like Giants fans have seen for awhile. If you think Crabtree makes you upset.....just wait.

Originally posted by JustinNiner:
[1] Jenkins [2] manningham [3]crabs [4]moss [5] owusu

=]

Would you place Crabtree in the slot?

Just curious. This is the problem im having with placeing crabtree. I think he is ultimately in a battle for the number two spot, But if he doesnt win the #2 over manningham i dont see room for him as the #3 WR on the roster. IMO williams would fit the slot much beter.

Manningham was a replacement for Morgan...and Morgan would be lucky to be a #4 of a good passing team. I hope people don't really think he is any more than that.