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2012 49ers WR Corps

They're still feeling things out. I don't buy the talk that Manningham is a two or three. His history and production puts him as a playmaker. In this offense there is a different one every week. Crabtree has played well but he does not stretch the field. I may be in the minority but I like Ginn, he has the one thing that you can't teach, speed. The jury is still out on Moss. Vernon is pure and simply a football player, likewise Walker. I'd like to see Kyle William take a slant on the full run and see what happens. It all comes down to the man at the controls, the weapons are there.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Not from some of the stuff I was reading. Some were implying that it was Crabtree's fault. Or that he isn't fast enough etc. I was just trying to point out how absurd it is to assert that a player isn't fast enough when the ball is thrown over him.

I haven't read that, Ive only seen the blame on the manningham throws and those were more towards the defense jamming manningham and slowing him down, the pass seemed more calculated to trust the receiver would get to the ball, similar to the INT on the pass to Crabtree in Minn seemed more like terrible communicaton + putting the ball were he thought the receiver would be.


When it comes down to it, the quarterbacks job is the put the ball where he thinks the receiver will be. That is his JOB, but his ABILITY to perform that task is another factor. So there are actually two problems...
1) The quarterbacks ability to put the ball where he thinks the receiver will be. (Just raw throwing skill; ie, throwing to a non-moving target)
2) The quarterbacks ability to determine where the receiver will actually be.

Sometimes Smith has issues with number one, but most of the time, like against the Jets, he has more issues with number two.

Quarterbacking is extremely difficult. Skill number one is expected from NFL quarterbacks, and skill number two is where things get complicated.
The ability to anticipate where a receiver will be when he is getting bumped around a little bit, or after he breaks free and begins to accelerate, or just after he makes a cut and begins to accelerate, or when you can hardly see him, or when he is running away from your vision at a horizontal perspective (as opposed to a diagonal perspective), is really really hard.

So yes, naturally, Smith put the ball where he thought the receiver will be, I would agree with that. However, that does not let him off the hook. The throw to Crabtree should have been made. The throws to Manningham were much more difficult because he was tangled up a bit, but they were still doable.
It's hard to put "fault" on a quarterback because of the nature of the position, being as difficult as it is. However, I would definitely put fault on Alex Smith for the Crabtree over throw. I would only put minor fault on him for the other overthrows, as those would have required super outstanding anticipation of where the receiver is going to be.
Originally posted by BrianGO:
When it comes down to it, the quarterbacks job is the put the ball where he thinks the receiver will be. That is his JOB, but his ABILITY to perform that task is another factor. So there are actually two problems...
1) The quarterbacks ability to put the ball where he thinks the receiver will be. (Just raw throwing skill; ie, throwing to a non-moving target)
2) The quarterbacks ability to determine where the receiver will actually be.

Sometimes Smith has issues with number one, but most of the time, like against the Jets, he has more issues with number two.

Quarterbacking is extremely difficult. Skill number one is expected from NFL quarterbacks, and skill number two is where things get complicated.
The ability to anticipate where a receiver will be when he is getting bumped around a little bit, or after he breaks free and begins to accelerate, or just after he makes a cut and begins to accelerate, or when you can hardly see him, or when he is running away from your vision at a horizontal perspective (as opposed to a diagonal perspective), is really really hard.

So yes, naturally, Smith put the ball where he thought the receiver will be, I would agree with that. However, that does not let him off the hook. The throw to Crabtree should have been made. The throws to Manningham were much more difficult because he was tangled up a bit, but they were still doable.
It's hard to put "fault" on a quarterback because of the nature of the position, being as difficult as it is. However, I would definitely put fault on Alex Smith for the Crabtree over throw. I would only put minor fault on him for the other overthrows, as those would have required super outstanding anticipation of where the receiver is going to be.

Not trying to make excuses for plays they should have been made. I never played QB, but I played WR and CB. Thats why the passes to manningham are hard for me to fault Alex for, #1 rule i was taught playing was if a ball can hit you on the hands you must make that catch on offense or defense, but due to getting tangled up with the CB its also hard to fault Manningham and not just credit the DB playing opposite of him for doing a good job on his first line of attack, another rule I learned the more you can disrupt the WR's route the harder it is for the QB to make that connection because now the timing is off and now the receiver has to catch up with the play. Some receivers are better at not getting disrupted (crabtree is decent at that) some are better when getting a step to try to get around the db. Timing I think is the majority of the issue and where it shows Alex and his newer receivers are still out of sync.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Not trying to make excuses for plays they should have been made. I never played QB, but I played WR and CB. Thats why the passes to manningham are hard for me to fault Alex for, #1 rule i was taught playing was if a ball can hit you on the hands you must make that catch on offense or defense, but due to getting tangled up with the CB its also hard to fault Manningham and not just credit the DB playing opposite of him for doing a good job on his first line of attack, another rule I learned the more you can disrupt the WR's route the harder it is for the QB to make that connection because now the timing is off and now the receiver has to catch up with the play. Some receivers are better at not getting disrupted (crabtree is decent at that) some are better when getting a step to try to get around the db. Timing I think is the majority of the issue and where it shows Alex and his newer receivers are still out of sync.


We are generally in agreement. I agree with everything you say, except I have a little issue with the bold.

"Timing" and "out-of-sync" are terms used to deflect the issue away from "skill" or "ability", IMO.
Do I think Smith will begin to hit more of those routes in the future? Yes. Do I think its because of "timing"? A little bit, maybe, but not really.
I think if we are going to see Smith hit these routes in the future, I think its going to be because of "confidence". Smith's confidence is the issue I think. Smith's confidence is what seems to effect his ability the most. The greatest thing Harbaugh has done is improve Smith's confidence. In the cut throat NFL, sometimes a player needs confidence a lot more than he needs coaching.
I think if Smith was a more confident player, he would have hit Crabtree, and maybe even Manningham. He threw the balls slightly long because he is still thinking about the INT too much. This is the problem with being religious about avoiding interceptions; it causes a player to always have that in the back of his mind, and never truly just play ball.
Again, Harbaugh is the key. Harbaugh has got to walk that fine line. Make Smith more confident, but don't go so far as to make him seem like he is coddling him on purpose.
Originally posted by BrianGO:
We are generally in agreement. I agree with everything you say, except I have a little issue with the bold.

"Timing" and "out-of-sync" are terms used to deflect the issue away from "skill" or "ability", IMO.
Do I think Smith will begin to hit more of those routes in the future? Yes. Do I think its because of "timing"? A little bit, maybe, but not really.
I think if we are going to see Smith hit these routes in the future, I think its going to be because of "confidence". Smith's confidence is the issue I think. Smith's confidence is what seems to effect his ability the most. The greatest thing Harbaugh has done is improve Smith's confidence. In the cut throat NFL, sometimes a player needs confidence a lot more than he needs coaching.
I think if Smith was a more confident player, he would have hit Crabtree, and maybe even Manningham. He threw the balls slightly long because he is still thinking about the INT too much. This is the problem with being religious about avoiding interceptions; it causes a player to always have that in the back of his mind, and never truly just play ball.
Again, Harbaugh is the key. Harbaugh has got to walk that fine line. Make Smith more confident, but don't go so far as to make him seem like he is coddling him on purpose.

Yes we do agree to a certain extent, and Im not trying to deflect anything. I believe firmly in the out of sync part because the receivers themselves have said it, and being on the same page as your qb takes some time, they look like there all getting on the same page more and more after each play. You may be right on the confidense part to an extent also.
[ Edited by LoneWolf on Oct 2, 2012 at 8:41 PM ]
Originally posted by PTulini:
Current Depth Chart

1. Michael Crabtree
2. Randy Moss
3. Mario Manningham
4. Kyle Williams
5. Ted Ginn

Even with Randy Moss, Michael Crabtree, Mario Manningham, Ted Ginn Jr., and Kyle Williams... I'm still not satisfied with the 49ers WR depth! I'd add 2 more in the draft. I'm not banking on Randy Moss making the 49ers 53-man roster! And Ted Ginn is primarily a return man on special teams, NOTHING MORE.

I love how your first round draft pick isn't even in the top 5....what a freaking joke of a pick by Baalke. As good as Aldon Smith turned out to be is how awful Jenkins was. I remember almost throwing my TV out the window when he made that pick...I guess this time it was called for.

How in the hell does he not just trade away the pick for next year's draft is beyond me. Instead he wastes a first round pick on a guy that is one step from the waiver wire...unreal.
Originally posted by bigwads:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Current Depth Chart

1. Michael Crabtree
2. Randy Moss
3. Mario Manningham
4. Kyle Williams
5. Ted Ginn

Even with Randy Moss, Michael Crabtree, Mario Manningham, Ted Ginn Jr., and Kyle Williams... I'm still not satisfied with the 49ers WR depth! I'd add 2 more in the draft. I'm not banking on Randy Moss making the 49ers 53-man roster! And Ted Ginn is primarily a return man on special teams, NOTHING MORE.

I love how your first round draft pick isn't even in the top 5....what a freaking joke of a pick by Baalke. As good as Aldon Smith turned out to be is how awful Jenkins was. I remember almost throwing my TV out the window when he made that pick...I guess this time it was called for.

How in the hell does he not just trade away the pick for next year's draft is beyond me. Instead he wastes a first round pick on a guy that is one step from the waiver wire...unreal.

Wow.

Moss and Ginn are a FA's after this season. Manningham and Williams are FA's after next. Crabtree in three more seasons.

Why not take a WR and groom him to be ready to start when we lose at least half of those mentioned players?

We have no holes. None. Any other 1st round pick at a different position would be seeing about as much time as Jenkins is.

And how do you know that he didn't try to trade the pick?
Originally posted by SteveYoung:
Wow.

Moss and Ginn are a FA's after this season. Manningham and Williams are FA's after next. Crabtree in three more seasons.

Why not take a WR and groom him to be ready to start when we lose at least half of those mentioned players?

We have no holes. None. Any other 1st round pick at a different position would be seeing about as much time as Jenkins is.

And how do you know that he didn't try to trade the pick?

If Irvin fell he would've been the pick.....and would be playing in spot duty
Originally posted by bigwads:
I love how your first round draft pick isn't even in the top 5....what a freaking joke of a pick by Baalke. As good as Aldon Smith turned out to be is how awful Jenkins was. I remember almost throwing my TV out the window when he made that pick...I guess this time it was called for.

How in the hell does he not just trade away the pick for next year's draft is beyond me. Instead he wastes a first round pick on a guy that is one step from the waiver wire...unreal.

The goal was to get WRs in SF. Baalke did the smart thing by not putting all his eggs in one basket with an aging Randy Moss. Manningham was only a two year deal and was the #3 in NY, Williams had not proven to be a legit threat at WR, Ginn is an awful WR, etc, etc, etc.

The draft pick was to prepare for the future. Moss and Ginn will probably be gone next season so AJ will get his shot. If in two years, he is given the Rashaun Woods treatment, then we can complain about the pick.
Originally posted by bigwads:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Current Depth Chart

1. Michael Crabtree
2. Randy Moss
3. Mario Manningham
4. Kyle Williams
5. Ted Ginn

Even with Randy Moss, Michael Crabtree, Mario Manningham, Ted Ginn Jr., and Kyle Williams... I'm still not satisfied with the 49ers WR depth! I'd add 2 more in the draft. I'm not banking on Randy Moss making the 49ers 53-man roster! And Ted Ginn is primarily a return man on special teams, NOTHING MORE.

I love how your first round draft pick isn't even in the top 5....what a freaking joke of a pick by Baalke. As good as Aldon Smith turned out to be is how awful Jenkins was. I remember almost throwing my TV out the window when he made that pick...I guess this time it was called for.

How in the hell does he not just trade away the pick for next year's draft is beyond me. Instead he wastes a first round pick on a guy that is one step from the waiver wire...unreal.

For the record, this thread was created before the draft even happened. Even so, AJ Jenkins is still very raw. It's going to take some time for him to get up to speed.
Especiallt considering ck is the future and they bonded pretty well in the preseason jenkins i think is getting the same treatment as ck develop your future players together so when its there time to start theres already a level of trust and confidense in each other.
  • Tombo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 189
Williams is fast, and has good hands (forget about NFCC game!). Why not send him deep a few times a game?
Originally posted by Tombo:
Williams is fast, and has good hands (forget about NFCC game!). Why not send him deep a few times a game?

Ive been wondering the same. He caught some great passes last year.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Originally posted by Tombo:
Williams is fast, and has good hands (forget about NFCC game!). Why not send him deep a few times a game?

Ive been wondering the same. He caught some great passes last year.


This. Williams is that guy that works his butt off, gets open but never gets the ball. Im tired of seeing Crabtree drop the ball. Give KW a wheel route outta the slot or a quick slant, hook or WR screen and watch him do work. Alot has to do with Alex though. I mean look at the teams we've played against, then look at their secondaries. NO REASON IN HELL why SMith shouldnt have had like 10TDs against the jets(not that I have any problem with our win) but im just saying, when a team moves a RB to play CB, you have to pick on that all day. 3 reciever sets or 2 TEs in all day. Detroit and NY both had depleted secondaries and we should have abused them, but then again, when recievers arnt catching the ball, I guess that makes it hard.
Drop stats: 49ers' hands not best I've seen

The best hands Jim Harbaugh has ever seen on a wide receiver account for two of the San Francisco 49ers' 11 drops this season. Michael Crabtree, though generally very solid for the 49ers this season, hasn't met the nearly impossible standard his head coach set during the offseason.

The 49ers are on pace to finish with 44 drops, defined by ESPN Stats & Information as "incomplete passes where the receiver should have caught the pass with ordinary effort."

That would be 11 more drops than the New York Giants and Cleveland Browns suffered while setting the league high in 2011, when the 49ers had 27. Delanie Walker leads the 49ers with three drops. Crabtree and Vernon Davis have two apiece. Bruce Miller, Randy Moss, Frank Gore and Kendall Hunter have the others. The 49ers have suffered drops on 10.1 percent of targets this season, worst in the NFL. They ranked last in 2011 with drops on 6.4 percent of targets.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcwest/post/_/id/76834/drops