What keeps the offense from begin elite

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Alex can make the pass to a receiver in any coverage, as we've seen throughout the season he can hit them on the numbers or the hands while there running, but you know after the serious case of the dropsies that hit the 49ers this season its got to be mentally tough to throw into a situation like that cuz if you receivers bobbles the ball at all in tight coverage thats an almost immediate pick.

QB's don't throw the ball because they think the receiver may drop it. That's not the reason. I think Alex can only make those plays if it is practiced and timed and played out on the field to the tee similar to the Vernon Post. I don't think he has the ability to make a half a yard adjustment quickly enough if it is still open but slightly off from what was on the whiteboard. This is where he doesn't throw it or if he just doesn't feel it looks right. QB's with better abilities and less limitations can make that split second hold and quicker/stronger throw to force the play to still work. I know people hate that word "force" but you have to do it sooner or later to put things over the top. We won't know until we truly see Alex play when everyone knows what's going on. But I still see him holding the ball, taking the loss and trying it again another time....he's just that mentality.

Call me simplistic but with the addition of just one more WR I think this offense can take a huge leap next year. Hell, even if it was the same players I think that we would see a lot more results. We saw a lot of improvement in the offense this season with virtually no time to prepare a new offense. That tells me there is enough talent and coaching. With a full offseason under Harbaugh and Roman and simply using the same playbook one year to the next should be huge. Of course time will tell but I am excited to see the offense catch up to the defense. Call me crazy but I think the O-line could be beast next season with Davis and Iupati having another offseason to mature.

Originally posted by walker807:
Call me simplistic but with the addition of just one more WR I think this offense can take a huge leap next year. Hell, even if it was the same players I think that we would see a lot more results. We saw a lot of improvement in the offense this season with virtually no time to prepare a new offense. That tells me there is enough talent and coaching. With a full offseason under Harbaugh and Roman and simply using the same playbook one year to the next should be huge. Of course time will tell but I am excited to see the offense catch up to the defense. Call me crazy but I think the O-line could be beast next season with Davis and Iupati having another offseason to mature.

If Braylon Edwards would have worked out at a level similar to his role with the Jets, he, along with a healthy Joshua Morgan would have had a huge impact on the offense.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by walker807:
Call me simplistic but with the addition of just one more WR I think this offense can take a huge leap next year. Hell, even if it was the same players I think that we would see a lot more results. We saw a lot of improvement in the offense this season with virtually no time to prepare a new offense. That tells me there is enough talent and coaching. With a full offseason under Harbaugh and Roman and simply using the same playbook one year to the next should be huge. Of course time will tell but I am excited to see the offense catch up to the defense. Call me crazy but I think the O-line could be beast next season with Davis and Iupati having another offseason to mature.

If Braylon Edwards would have worked out at a level similar to his role with the Jets, he, along with a healthy Joshua Morgan would have had a huge impact on the offense.

Yes and we will probably get Morgan back. Still don't want to spend 7 mil for a FA unless they are going to be good for 100 catches which isn't likely in this offense which means we can draft one instead.

Would rather have Fleener. Crabs and Morgan are good for 60-80 catches but Delanie is not good for 400-600 yards and redzone threat. Fleener would give us that.

Originally posted by Joecool:
QB's don't throw the ball because they think the receiver may drop it. That's not the reason. I think Alex can only make those plays if it is practiced and timed and played out on the field to the tee similar to the Vernon Post. I don't think he has the ability to make a half a yard adjustment quickly enough if it is still open but slightly off from what was on the whiteboard. This is where he doesn't throw it or if he just doesn't feel it looks right. QB's with better abilities and less limitations can make that split second hold and quicker/stronger throw to force the play to still work. I know people hate that word "force" but you have to do it sooner or later to put things over the top. We won't know until we truly see Alex play when everyone knows what's going on. But I still see him holding the ball, taking the loss and trying it again another time....he's just that mentality.

do you think that pass to hunter was planned?

what about that 4th down conversion where he had to go through two of his reads?

the botched snap then like 55 yard pass to walker which led to a PI?

i can think of many players went wrong that smith improvised in fact in the season harbaugh praised him on that

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by Joecool:
QB's don't throw the ball because they think the receiver may drop it. That's not the reason. I think Alex can only make those plays if it is practiced and timed and played out on the field to the tee similar to the Vernon Post. I don't think he has the ability to make a half a yard adjustment quickly enough if it is still open but slightly off from what was on the whiteboard. This is where he doesn't throw it or if he just doesn't feel it looks right. QB's with better abilities and less limitations can make that split second hold and quicker/stronger throw to force the play to still work. I know people hate that word "force" but you have to do it sooner or later to put things over the top. We won't know until we truly see Alex play when everyone knows what's going on. But I still see him holding the ball, taking the loss and trying it again another time....he's just that mentality.

do you think that pass to hunter was planned?

what about that 4th down conversion where he had to go through two of his reads?

the botched snap then like 55 yard pass to walker which led to a PI?

i can think of many players went wrong that smith improvised in fact in the season harbaugh praised him on that

I rememer one play in perticular (forgot the game it happened in) where the o-line decided to let 2 rushers free to the QB and Alex managed to run circles around them while all the recievers basically watched waiting for him to get sacked instead of trying to get open, instead of a sack Alex managed to get the ball out of bounds near a reciever who was just standing there scratchin his sack. I think we underestimate his craftyness at times because of the way his career began.

Originally posted by Bootlegger:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Bootlegger:
So you blame YPC on our receivers, yet you don't factor in YAC when comparing the two receiving corps and you tell me I am not being objective. I am looking at all the stats, and i don't see how our receiving corps last year was so much worst than Baltimore's receiving corp. You point to two stats being YPC and receptions. That just means their receivers were hit on longer routes, especially since their YAC aren't as high. How does that make their receivers better than ours?

Seems like our receivers had to fight harder for their yards.

I pointed to two stats that you did not take into the equation. There are more but in order to establish meaningful statistical analysis you need to try and present as whole a picture as you can. You selected some stats that indicate nothing regarding playcalling, oline protection, or difficulty of catch, etc.

When you just use stats and do not take into consideration Boldin's reputation as an all pro receiver you tend to lose credibility as well.

That said, I do not "blame" our receivers for being bad when both Morgan and Edwards were sidelined. Two out of the top three WRs were useless for most of the year but you try to make it sound like having Boldin and Smith for the entire year is somehow not better than bringing in subs.

You make too many leaps of faith in your arguments:

"Their receivers were hit on longer routes." But the stats show that Smith is better, comparatively, on longer routes than on short routes. So this just doesn't jibe.

"Our receivers had to fight harder for their yards." Or they aren't as good? Or our yards are longer than Baltimore's?

You have no idea of whether Flacco is much better than Smith or Smith is much better than Flacco. You can argue for or against QBR, but at least that rating is a serious attempt to define QB quality analyzing many variables. Smith is rated 9th while Flacco is rated 18th. So maybe Boldin has forgotten how to be an all pro and that is why Flacco is rated so poorly?

What I was trying to show by presenting the statistics of every player on our team who caught the ball is that, when taken together, all of our receivers had roughly the same number of yards, TDs, first downs, and targets as the Baltimore Raven's receivers. While our receivers did not have as high of a YPC or 20+ reception, they tended to have a higher completion % when targeted and more YAC. In essence, I find the statistics useful because I believe it shows that, even with the injuries we had, our receivers did a pretty comparable job to that of Baltimore's receivers. We can always speculate as to how B. Edwards and J. Morgan would have performed had they been 100% healthy the whole year like A. Boldin and T. Smith, but there's little point in that. As none of these receivers, except Crabtree, played the whole year, I find it harsh to say that because none of them put up T. Smith's numbers, that they should be discounted.

I see no stats showing that A. Smith is better at the longer routes, however I look forward to seeing them if you would like to provide them.

In the future, I would, also, appreciate it if you accurately quoted my statements, otherwise please do not take the time put the quote box around them.

From what I have read of Flacco and the Baltimore fan base; they are tired of him. He will put up numbers in one game yet fail to make the winning play in most others. His poise under fire has been questioned by both Baltimore media and fans alike. He has perhaps the best "deep arm" in the NFL but does not use it effectively. His "will to win" has been openly questioned by many in the area. FWIW...

Originally posted by Bootlegger:

Originally posted by dj43:
Yes, I'll take Torrey Smith, Anquan Boldin and Ray Rice over Crabtree, Ginn and Gore. Not even close. Boldin is a stud possession receiver. Smith is faster than Ginn and can catch the ball. Rice is perhaps the best receiving back in the league.

I agree R. Rice is an absolute stud.

But Crabtree, 24, is a lot younger than Boldin, 31, and I believe their numbers are similar, in respect to last year. I think that Crabtree is improving and, personally, I would rather have Crabtree because he is on the rise and is younger.

M. Crabtree
48 rec, 625 yards in 2009
55 rec, 741 yards in 2010
72 rec, 874 yards in 2011

A. Boldin
84 rec, 1024 yards in 2009
64 rec, 837 yards in 2010
57 rec, 887 yards in 2011

Rather than compare T. Smith with T. Ginn, i think the comparison to J. Morgan is a better one. J. Morgan, 26, has steadily been improving throughout the years and has developed a nice chemistry with A. Smith. He is also coming off an injury and is a bit older than T. Smith, 23. T. Smith put up some pretty good numbers in his first year, though. This i would probably give to T. Smith.

J. Morgan (6th round)
20 rec, 319 yards in 2008
52 rec, 527 yards in 2009
44rec, 698 yards in 2010
15 rec, 220 yards in 2011 (through 5 games.)

T. Smith (27th pick in the 2nd round)
50 rec, 841 yards in 2011

My point was based on what we have seen to date. We agree on Rice. We HOPE Crabtree improves but Boldin has been a much more dependable receiver to date - thus, based on what we have actually seen, I would rather have Boldin.

Torrey Smith became a real weapon as the season progressed. The 49ers have no one on the roster that has done what he did over the final 6-8 games of the season. He looks like a future Pro Bowler.

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by Joecool:
QB's don't throw the ball because they think the receiver may drop it. That's not the reason. I think Alex can only make those plays if it is practiced and timed and played out on the field to the tee similar to the Vernon Post. I don't think he has the ability to make a half a yard adjustment quickly enough if it is still open but slightly off from what was on the whiteboard. This is where he doesn't throw it or if he just doesn't feel it looks right. QB's with better abilities and less limitations can make that split second hold and quicker/stronger throw to force the play to still work. I know people hate that word "force" but you have to do it sooner or later to put things over the top. We won't know until we truly see Alex play when everyone knows what's going on. But I still see him holding the ball, taking the loss and trying it again another time....he's just that mentality.

do you think that pass to hunter was planned?

what about that 4th down conversion where he had to go through two of his reads?

the botched snap then like 55 yard pass to walker which led to a PI?

i can think of many players went wrong that smith improvised in fact in the season harbaugh praised him on that

Alex has shown some good things on "nothing to lose" types of plays like these no different than he has when we are down and he changes his mentality to attack a defense because there's nothing to lose. I'm talking about moving the defense or waiting a split second for the receiver to move a little rather than quickly switching away to a checkdown. It isn't new that he's quick to check down if he doesn't see what he saw on the board. There was also a play vs BAL where VD was WIDE open 7 yards into a Seam route, Alex stares at him with Ed Reed 15 yards away. Alex doesn't pull the trigger and takes the sack. It was replayed on a game breakdown show. THIS has nothing to do with confidence in a receiver and it has everything to do with Alex thinking he can't make the throw quick enough. It is the slight instances he doesn't come through in, not the "nothing to lose" situations where he's just trying to change a blown play into no loss.

whoops, wrong thread!

Joe that comes from a combination of things. In the game against baltimore alex was getting his ass kicked hard. And it wasn't all him, first play was a stripped ball on a pass so most people can understand wanting a little more space to pass in which he has absolutely none in that game. Now to the word force. Forced plays are not in the game plan. Forced plays = a lot more mistakes then average play. When alex is making the "nothing to lose" plays its because there is nothing to lose. Why does anyone want to risk a game making plays like that when you have a lead comfortable or not. Its just risking a loss for a fancy play.

Great example of a forced play, the interception in the endzone against baltimore, alex tried to drill the ball in a tight window, the receiver stayed flat footed, and the cb made a break for the ball resulting in alexs 1st int in the redzone.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Great example of a forced play, the interception in the endzone against baltimore, alex tried to drill the ball in a tight window, the receiver stayed flat footed, and the cb made a break for the ball resulting in alexs 1st int in the redzone.

No, that was a terrible throw to the inside which gave the DB prime position on the ball.

So the throw is all that gave the db prime position not the fact our receivers weren't trying to go after a pass, weren't fighting for position on the ball. Like I said before its the whole offense that's holding themselves back not any single player. If you want to keep believing our receivers are fine alex is the problem and the rediculous comment about our o line being one of the best in the league yet we still had 40+ sacks. Go ahead and keep telling yourself that. But until our whole offense gets on the same page we will remain the team that win 75% of our games because of our defense or special teams.

Good god I quit smoking to soon.