What keeps the offense from begin elite

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Look, you are missing the point. Yes, Brett Swain and Hastings had no time in our system. I agree. The point I was making was that the new WRs we bring in ALSO will have had no time in our system. So like I said, in 2012, we will once again have a built in excuse for the offense being below average. Where do the excuses/reasons end?

In your quest to continue the debate you are ignoring the proven ability of Harbaugh and staff to develop/improve players. Everyone on the team improved during the last season except RG and WRs. The RG situation is about talent and the WRs were partly talent and partly injuries. With improved talent in those areas, and a full off-season and TC, there is no reason to believe those two positions will not show marked improvement under JH and staff.

That is false. Crabtree improved from 2010. Kyle Williams started to have better games later in the year which means the rookie improved. Ginn improved his overall production from last year considering he missed some games due to injury this year. Morgan had already appeared to have improved prior to his injury.

All this WR improvement while being target and thrown to less than most WR's in the league on an offense that passes less than most teams in the league.

In actuality, our OL also improved on changing personnel alone. Of all these years of improving OL personnel, why hasn't the sack numbers improved? But that's will never be pointed at our QB who will not pull the trigger on an open receiver and would rather take the sack which is a fact. In prior years, your complaint was that coaching did not teach our OL properly and batted balls were also due to coaching. I have a feeling you can't blame the coaching on this anymore. Also, how many teams have ALL 5 OL spots playing at a high level? Nearly every team has a weak link on the OL but only ours repeatedly gives up 40 sack seasons with what is safe to say, only one "weak" link. Note that other OL we have let go went on to be solid starters in the league. The same guys you used to blame.

Williams played after Edwards and Morgan went down. Before that he was nothing. Of course he would make a few plays then after not seeing the field a year ago.

Yes, I still blame coaching for some of the OL problems but the biggest problem with the OL is that Goodwin and Snyder struggled all season long holding the front of the pocket. Goodwin had a good, not great season. He receiver Pro Bowl consideration based on reputation not last season's performance.

Yes, Alex took too many sacks but would you rather have INTs on balls forced into 3rd rate receivers?

It was just the the quote where I said "Seems like" before "our receivers had to fight harder for their yards."

Originally posted by Bootlegger:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Bootlegger:

Originally posted by Jakemall:

Originally posted by Bootlegger:
this is what i meant to quote above, but couldn't edit my post to make it look like this.

I was snide?

All I am saying is that there is no need to say someone is hating because he thinks the reason we do not have an elite offense is because of Alex Smith. I agree with him and can post stats like these to help prove my point. If you think otherwise, show me the stats you think are pertinent in showing that Alex Smith is not holding us back from being elite.



vs. the NYG in playoffs.

Interesting data but it also shows the difference in quality of the WRs on the three teams as well. NONE of the 49er receivers in the playoffs last season would start in either GB or Atlanta - which is why most mocks have the 49ers using the #1 pick on a WR. The ones that don't have them grabbing one of the 2nd tier in the 2nd round. The need is undeniable.

What about this comparison. Do the Ravens have vastly superior receivers to us?





conversions = 3rd down conversions

Yes, I'll take Torrey Smith, Anquan Boldin and Ray Rice over Crabtree, Ginn and Gore. Not even close. Boldin is a stud possession receiver. Smith is faster than Ginn and can catch the ball. Rice is perhaps the best receiving back in the league.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Bootlegger:
What I was trying to show by presenting the statistics of every player on our team who caught the ball is that, when taken together, all of our receivers had roughly the same number of yards, TDs, first downs, and targets as the Baltimore Raven's receivers. While our receivers did not have as high of a YPC or 20+ reception, they tended to have a higher completion % when targeted and more YAC. In essence, I find the statistics useful because I believe it shows that, even with the injuries we had, our receivers did a pretty comparable job to that of Baltimore's receivers. We can always speculate as to how B. Edwards and J. Morgan would have performed had they been 100% healthy the whole year like A. Boldin and T. Smith, but there's little point in that. As none of these receivers, except Crabtree, played the whole year, I find it harsh to say that because none of them put up T. Smith's numbers, that they should be discounted.***

I see no stats showing that A. Smith is better at the longer routes, however I look forward to seeing them if you would like to provide them.*

In the future, I would, also, appreciate it if you accurately quoted my statements, otherwise please do not take the time put the quote box around them.**

*These were posted some time ago so don't recall where. Too tired to find it but Smith is best on routes of 30 or more yards when compared with other QBs. He is less effective at mid range and then less effective again on short routes. Brady, for instance, is just the opposite. So to say that the 9er WRs get less YAC because of Smith seems unlikely. Once again, Brady has thanked his receivers for making the most of his short passes, breaking tackles and getting YAC.

**The quotes were accurate. You might complain about my not using the whole sentence if that changed the meaning, but I don't see that as having happened.

***You are the one comparing our WRs with Baltimore's as if they were equal last year...the whole intent of your tables. My point is that if Smith had Morgan and Crabtree the whole season we might have another Super Bowl trophy in SF. We disagree, no big deal.

I agree with the bolded. That consistency between him and A. Smith would definitely have helped. Plus, I like J. Morgan as a receiver.

Plays of 25 yards or more http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=2011&type=Passing&range=NFL&rank=118
1 Drew Brees NO 42
2t Tom Brady NE 40
2t Aaron Rodgers GB 40
2t Matthew Stafford Det 40
5 Philip Rivers SD 39
6 Eli Manning NYG 38
7 Tony Romo Dal 35
8 Cam Newton Car 34
9t Andy Dalton Cin 32
9t Matt Ryan Atl 32
11t Ryan Fitzpatrick Buf 29
11t Joe Flacco Bal 29
13t Matt Hasselbeck Ten 28
13t Alex Smith SF 28
13t Michael Vick Phi 28

Originally posted by dj43:
Yes, I'll take Torrey Smith, Anquan Boldin and Ray Rice over Crabtree, Ginn and Gore. Not even close. Boldin is a stud possession receiver. Smith is faster than Ginn and can catch the ball. Rice is perhaps the best receiving back in the league.

I agree R. Rice is an absolute stud.

But Crabtree, 24, is a lot younger than Boldin, 31, and I believe their numbers are similar, in respect to last year. I think that Crabtree is improving and, personally, I would rather have Crabtree because he is on the rise and is younger.

M. Crabtree
48 rec, 625 yards in 2009
55 rec, 741 yards in 2010
72 rec, 874 yards in 2011

A. Boldin
84 rec, 1024 yards in 2009
64 rec, 837 yards in 2010
57 rec, 887 yards in 2011

Rather than compare T. Smith with T. Ginn, i think the comparison to J. Morgan is a better one. J. Morgan, 26, has steadily been improving throughout the years and has developed a nice chemistry with A. Smith. He is also coming off an injury and is a bit older than T. Smith, 23. T. Smith put up some pretty good numbers in his first year, though. This i would probably give to T. Smith.

J. Morgan (6th round)
20 rec, 319 yards in 2008
52 rec, 527 yards in 2009
44rec, 698 yards in 2010
15 rec, 220 yards in 2011 (through 5 games.)

T. Smith (27th pick in the 2nd round)
50 rec, 841 yards in 2011

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Bootlegger:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Bootlegger:

Originally posted by Jakemall:

Originally posted by Bootlegger:
this is what i meant to quote above, but couldn't edit my post to make it look like this.

I was snide?

All I am saying is that there is no need to say someone is hating because he thinks the reason we do not have an elite offense is because of Alex Smith. I agree with him and can post stats like these to help prove my point. If you think otherwise, show me the stats you think are pertinent in showing that Alex Smith is not holding us back from being elite.



vs. the NYG in playoffs.

Interesting data but it also shows the difference in quality of the WRs on the three teams as well. NONE of the 49er receivers in the playoffs last season would start in either GB or Atlanta - which is why most mocks have the 49ers using the #1 pick on a WR. The ones that don't have them grabbing one of the 2nd tier in the 2nd round. The need is undeniable.

What about this comparison. Do the Ravens have vastly superior receivers to us?





conversions = 3rd down conversions

Yes, I'll take Torrey Smith, Anquan Boldin and Ray Rice over Crabtree, Ginn and Gore. Not even close. Boldin is a stud possession receiver. Smith is faster than Ginn and can catch the ball. Rice is perhaps the best receiving back in the league.

the argument starts to suck when you blame everything except the QB. As much of an improvement that Alex made last season, its not enough to say that he is not at fault at all. Alex still has to be able to make his team better, that is the job of the QB. He has to make the same size of stride next yr as he did this yr. that will then put him the top 8-10 next yr. I don't care how many yds he throws, but he has to be more effective with the amount of yds he does get.

Originally posted by SF4EVA:
the argument starts to suck when you blame everything except the QB. As much of an improvement that Alex made last season, its not enough to say that he is not at fault at all. Alex still has to be able to make his team better, that is the job of the QB. He has to make the same size of stride next yr as he did this yr. that will then put him the top 8-10 next yr. I don't care how many yds he throws, but he has to be more effective with the amount of yds he does get.

Would you point out the many posts that say Smith is not to blame at all, must have missed them. As far as being effective I would agree regarding the Red Zone except that the plays called were highly weighted toward the run game. The Harbaugh offense is extremely efficient, getting the most out of limited options at this point. 14-4 and rated in the top ten QBs is pretty effective.

However, Smith has stated that he had many plays throughout the season that he would like to have back. He did not make the most of every play and that is on him to correct and improve. Many may want to blame Smith or the receivers, or the OLine, or the coaching; but it is all tied together and none were perfect last year.

The really good news is that they had less than a full TC to install the offense and two of their top receivers were out for most of the year. This year will be enjoyable to watch I would think.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Would you point out the many posts that say Smith is not to blame at all, must have missed them. As far as being effective I would agree regarding the Red Zone except that the plays called were highly weighted toward the run game. The Harbaugh offense is extremely efficient, getting the most out of limited options at this point. 14-4 and rated in the top ten QBs is pretty effective.

However, Smith has stated that he had many plays throughout the season that he would like to have back. He did not make the most of every play and that is on him to correct and improve. Many may want to blame Smith or the receivers, or the OLine, or the coaching; but it is all tied together and none were perfect last year.

The really good news is that they had less than a full TC to install the offense and two of their top receivers were out for most of the year. This year will be enjoyable to watch I would think.

The off-season offer a lot of humorous sometimes insane posts for reading. Once is a while there's a reasonable post that actually makes sense but seems out of place WTH is wrong with you... where is the hysterical rant

Therefore, by conclusion, the 49ers WR's performance last season was subpar. Tell me something everyone else on the planet doesn't already know. The question is how best to improve for next year and does that involve Morgan? IMO, if the price is right, yes. Every team needs a 3rd/4th WR that has the ability to actually play in the NFL. Though this team would still need a #1, Morgan provides the 49ers with depth and a familiar face.

Before we dismiss Morgan, consider the alternatives. I would say Manningham is probably the more expensive alternative, and he too comes with risk. I think Manningham was the prime beneficiary of being the 3rd wheel in a WR group that included two excellent excellent players in Victor Cruz and Hakeem Nicks. That is, Manningham was naturally given more space to work as defenses sought to mitigate the risk both Nicks and Cruz pose. If he were to become a Niner, the amount of open space he was afforded last season will shrink and he may not look quite as good. For this reason, Morgan may be the better option...and cheaper.

The one caveat I have is whether or not the injury has sapped his physical ability. If he checks out, good to go.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by 80sbaby24:

Look, you are missing the point. Yes, Brett Swain and Hastings had no time in our system. I agree. The point I was making was that the new WRs we bring in ALSO will have had no time in our system. So like I said, in 2012, we will once again have a built in excuse for the offense being below average. Where do the excuses/reasons end?

In your quest to continue the debate you are ignoring the proven ability of Harbaugh and staff to develop/improve players. Everyone on the team improved during the last season except RG and WRs. The RG situation is about talent and the WRs were partly talent and partly injuries. With improved talent in those areas, and a full off-season and TC, there is no reason to believe those two positions will not show marked improvement under JH and staff.

That is false. Crabtree improved from 2010. Kyle Williams started to have better games later in the year which means the rookie improved. Ginn improved his overall production from last year considering he missed some games due to injury this year. Morgan had already appeared to have improved prior to his injury.

All this WR improvement while being target and thrown to less than most WR's in the league on an offense that passes less than most teams in the league.

In actuality, our OL also improved on changing personnel alone. Of all these years of improving OL personnel, why hasn't the sack numbers improved? But that's will never be pointed at our QB who will not pull the trigger on an open receiver and would rather take the sack which is a fact. In prior years, your complaint was that coaching did not teach our OL properly and batted balls were also due to coaching. I have a feeling you can't blame the coaching on this anymore. Also, how many teams have ALL 5 OL spots playing at a high level? Nearly every team has a weak link on the OL but only ours repeatedly gives up 40 sack seasons with what is safe to say, only one "weak" link. Note that other OL we have let go went on to be solid starters in the league. The same guys you used to blame.

Williams played after Edwards and Morgan went down. Before that he was nothing. Of course he would make a few plays then after not seeing the field a year ago.

Yes, I still blame coaching for some of the OL problems but the biggest problem with the OL is that Goodwin and Snyder struggled all season long holding the front of the pocket. Goodwin had a good, not great season. He receiver Pro Bowl consideration based on reputation not last season's performance.

Yes, Alex took too many sacks but would you rather have INTs on balls forced into 3rd rate receivers?

Another false assumption that Alex would have thrown INTs if he didn't take the sack as if to blame another part of the offense that's not Smith. I would rather him hit his open receiver rather than take the sack as Harbaugh has mentioned after multiple games.

Originally posted by Joecool:
Another false assumption that Alex would have thrown INTs if he didn't take the sack as if to blame another part of the offense that's not Smith. I would rather him hit his open receiver rather than take the sack as Harbaugh has mentioned after multiple games.

Its also a false assumption that Alex had receivers open all the time.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:

Originally posted by Joecool:
Another false assumption that Alex would have thrown INTs if he didn't take the sack as if to blame another part of the offense that's not Smith. I would rather him hit his open receiver rather than take the sack as Harbaugh has mentioned after multiple games.

Its also a false assumption that Alex had receivers open all the time.

True, but I am going by his coach's post game comments after 2 or 3 of those games. However, wouldn't you rather think Alex CAN make the tight throw to a covered receiver more-so than he can't? I would and am hoping he can rather than automatically assume he will throw an INT.

Originally posted by bzborow1:
Therefore, by conclusion, the 49ers WR's performance last season was subpar. Tell me something everyone else on the planet doesn't already know. The question is how best to improve for next year and does that involve Morgan? IMO, if the price is right, yes. Every team needs a 3rd/4th WR that has the ability to actually play in the NFL. Though this team would still need a #1, Morgan provides the 49ers with depth and a familiar face.

Before we dismiss Morgan, consider the alternatives. I would say Manningham is probably the more expensive alternative, and he too comes with risk. I think Manningham was the prime beneficiary of being the 3rd wheel in a WR group that included two excellent excellent players in Victor Cruz and Hakeem Nicks. That is, Manningham was naturally given more space to work as defenses sought to mitigate the risk both Nicks and Cruz pose. If he were to become a Niner, the amount of open space he was afforded last season will shrink and he may not look quite as good. For this reason, Morgan may be the better option...and cheaper.

The one caveat I have is whether or not the injury has sapped his physical ability. If he checks out, good to go.

No, the performance by our WR's per number of attempts in throwing was on par. So, the conclusion could be the QB play was lacking.

Our entire offense's performance was on par, but there's still some things that can make it into the top 10. What those things are could be anywhere from more time in the system to getting a true deep threat to getting better play from the QB to getting 4 seconds to throw.

My point is, let's give this more time and the draft before we throw money at a WR that may not even make a difference.

Alex can make the pass to a receiver in any coverage, as we've seen throughout the season he can hit them on the numbers or the hands while there running, but you know after the serious case of the dropsies that hit the 49ers this season its got to be mentally tough to throw into a situation like that cuz if you receivers bobbles the ball at all in tight coverage thats an almost immediate pick.