"Wide Open" sideline routes | Page 5

HearstFan · 2012-02-15T10:56:00-08:00

I keep hearing posters say that Ginn or Crabs were "Wide Open" on deep routes. That is total baloney. Most of their "deep routes" were run down the sideline, NOT deep posts (start outside and run deep inside) or corner routes (start inside and run to a deep open outside route). There are two problems with calling sideline routes Wide Open. #1 - Nature of the route - sideline routes against today's defenses are rarely "Wide Open." To get just Open on a sideline route, the receiver not only has to get behind the DB, but he has to keep his route closer to the hash marks and not right on the sideline. That way the throw can lead the receiver to the outside shoulder toward the sideline -- keeping the ball away from the DB and Safety coming from the inside. With the CB traling the receiver, and usually a safety coming over the top from the inside, even on good routes, the QB has a small window to put the ball over the CB and in before the safety. Defenses have gotten very good at covering this route, that is why its not successful very often and you see more back-shoulder throws in the last couple of years. #2 - 49ers routes -- If you watch games where the 49ers tried to get this route thrown -- one game had 2-3 throws like this to Crabs, and another game had 2 throws like this to Ginn -- our receivers were running very near the sideline and the ball was thrown out of bounds. Unless the coaches were trying to be super conservative on with the design, which is possible, these were not well designed or run a.) the receivers were too close to the sideline, and b.) Smith doesn't look good at these throws because he is going to err conservatively to throw long and outside rather than risk and INT. What was really lacking in the 49ers offense were the deep middle or corner wide open routes that we saw repeatedly from the Saints and Packers. We only sawy a couple of those plays break open for the 49ers, and even fewer successfully completed. Most of that has to do with play designs that get those receivers breaking so open. Those routes, at least this year, did not seem to be a staple of JH offensive design. Was it the limited scheme installation? Lack of receiver talent? Limitation of QB? Only the coaches know for sure, but I hope we see more of that in 2012.

Feb 19, 2012 at 9:00 PM

#61

9erfanAUS
Veteran
Posts: 16,281

Originally posted by nflguy49:

Originally posted by susweel:
They were wide open but #11 cant make those throws to anyone but VD and thats because VD burns any LB covering him by five yards.

this

I would like to see your response to this:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by susweel:
They were wide open but #11 cant make those throws to anyone but VD and thats because VD burns any LB covering him by five yards.

This statement is contradictory.

If Smith can only throw to VD because he burns his cover man by 5 yards then there should be no reason why he can't throw to WRs who are "wide open" assuming that "wide open" means beating your man by more than 5 yards. Let's face it, our WR core is sorry.

Because I don't think you have any.

Feb 19, 2012 at 9:01 PM

#62

49ersalldaway126
Veteran
Posts: 14,549

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

seriously how the hell can you guys tell from the TV angle?

Feb 19, 2012 at 9:38 PM

#63

fropwns
The Last Fronin
Posts: 27,971

Okay, I feel like this thread has become less about open routes and more about whether Alex can hit people deep down the field. How about we get back on topic?

Feb 19, 2012 at 9:56 PM

#64

nflguy49
Veteran
Posts: 13,050

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by nflguy49:

Originally posted by susweel:
They were wide open but #11 cant make those throws to anyone but VD and thats because VD burns any LB covering him by five yards.

this

I would like to see your response to this:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by susweel:
They were wide open but #11 cant make those throws to anyone but VD and thats because VD burns any LB covering him by five yards.

This statement is contradictory.

If Smith can only throw to VD because he burns his cover man by 5 yards then there should be no reason why he can't throw to WRs who are "wide open" assuming that "wide open" means beating your man by more than 5 yards. Let's face it, our WR core is sorry.

Because I don't think you have any.

Vernon Davis has an unusual combination of speed and power. He's too strong of a run blocker to put a defensive back on him but most linebackers cannot stay with him if he goes down field on a pass route instead of staying in to block. So typically he is not tightly covered because it's rare that a linebacker has the cover skills to do so. The problem with Alex (and honestly this is what separates him from the elite qbs) is that he lacks the ability to consistently place the ball in tight windows. When a receiver isn't open by five or more yards Alex won't pull the trigger.

Compounding the problem is that Alex will too often give up looking down field too soon and settle for a short check down. It's cost us big plays all year including the NFC Title Game when he had Walker wide open on a "wheel route" (for a likely touchdown) but didn't see him because again Alex stopped looking down field almost immediately after taking the snap even though the O-line gave him great protection.

[ Edited by nflguy49 on Feb 19, 2012 at 9:57 PM ]

Feb 19, 2012 at 9:56 PM

#65

nflguy49
Veteran
Posts: 13,050

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by nflguy49:

Originally posted by susweel:
They were wide open but #11 cant make those throws to anyone but VD and thats because VD burns any LB covering him by five yards.

this

I would like to see your response to this:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by susweel:
They were wide open but #11 cant make those throws to anyone but VD and thats because VD burns any LB covering him by five yards.

This statement is contradictory.

If Smith can only throw to VD because he burns his cover man by 5 yards then there should be no reason why he can't throw to WRs who are "wide open" assuming that "wide open" means beating your man by more than 5 yards. Let's face it, our WR core is sorry.

Because I don't think you have any.

oops. double post.

[ Edited by nflguy49 on Feb 19, 2012 at 9:57 PM ]

Feb 20, 2012 at 1:51 AM

#66

BrianGO
Veteran
Posts: 10,300

Originally posted by Joecool:
NLF Open:

If they are a yard open on a deep route, they are WIDE open = TD

If they are a foot open on a deep sideline route: they are open

If they are even with the DB at the time of the throw, they are open.

Alex Smith open:
2 yards and have 10-foot wingspan to catch his overthrows.

To be fair, his throw to VD against the Giants on that first touchdown was thrown when VD was still in front of the DB. The problem with Smith isn't really his ability to make the throw, the problem is his ability to read the field. He always throws to the first option if they are open, the rest of the WR's can be running 10 yards open down field, he will still make the throw to his first read. If the first read is a deep route, then we'll get a touchdown, if the first read is a 2 yard gain, then we get a two yard gain.

Feb 20, 2012 at 11:02 AM

#67

Young2Rice
Veteran
Posts: 71,765

Originally posted by BrianGO:

Originally posted by Joecool:
NLF Open:

If they are a yard open on a deep route, they are WIDE open = TD

If they are a foot open on a deep sideline route: they are open

If they are even with the DB at the time of the throw, they are open.

Alex Smith open:
2 yards and have 10-foot wingspan to catch his overthrows.

To be fair, his throw to VD against the Giants on that first touchdown was thrown when VD was still in front of the DB. The problem with Smith isn't really his ability to make the throw, the problem is his ability to read the field. He always throws to the first option if they are open, the rest of the WR's can be running 10 yards open down field, he will still make the throw to his first read. If the first read is a deep route, then we'll get a touchdown, if the first read is a 2 yard gain, then we get a two yard gain.

Yup basically its take the first read, if its not there, throw a checkdown, throw it away, or run.

Feb 20, 2012 at 11:04 AM

#68

9erfanAUS
Veteran
Posts: 16,281

Originally posted by nflguy49:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by nflguy49:

Originally posted by susweel:
They were wide open but #11 cant make those throws to anyone but VD and thats because VD burns any LB covering him by five yards.

this

I would like to see your response to this:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by susweel:
They were wide open but #11 cant make those throws to anyone but VD and thats because VD burns any LB covering him by five yards.

This statement is contradictory.

If Smith can only throw to VD because he burns his cover man by 5 yards then there should be no reason why he can't throw to WRs who are "wide open" assuming that "wide open" means beating your man by more than 5 yards. Let's face it, our WR core is sorry.

Because I don't think you have any.

Vernon Davis has an unusual combination of speed and power. He's too strong of a run blocker to put a defensive back on him but most linebackers cannot stay with him if he goes down field on a pass route instead of staying in to block. So typically he is not tightly covered because it's rare that a linebacker has the cover skills to do so. The problem with Alex (and honestly this is what separates him from the elite qbs) is that he lacks the ability to consistently place the ball in tight windows. When a receiver isn't open by five or more yards Alex won't pull the trigger.

Compounding the problem is that Alex will too often give up looking down field too soon and settle for a short check down. It's cost us big plays all year including the NFC Title Game when he had Walker wide open on a "wheel route" (for a likely touchdown) but didn't see him because again Alex stopped looking down field almost immediately after taking the snap even though the O-line gave him great protection.

Your response didn't answer the question as to why Smith can't throw to the other "wide open" targets besides Davis. To me, the answer is chemistry and talent.

The rest of your response I agree with. I believe he can improve in throwing into tighter windows. If he had hit Williams on the deep route, that would have changed the game around.

Feb 20, 2012 at 11:05 AM

#69

cciowa
Veteran
Posts: 60,541

Originally posted by fropwns:
Okay, I feel like this thread has become less about open routes and more about whether Alex can hit people deep down the field. How about we get back on topic?

i can not believe we have a thread about sideline routes that is five pages long but whatever

the infamous sideline route, the scurge of alex smith

Feb 20, 2012 at 11:05 AM

#70

49ersalldaway126
Veteran
Posts: 14,549

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

seriously how the hell can you guys tell from the TV angle?

.

again i would like to know

Feb 20, 2012 at 3:27 PM

#71

Joecool
Veteran
Posts: 70,984

Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by Joecool:
NLF Open:

If they are a yard open on a deep route, they are WIDE open = TD

If they are a foot open on a deep sideline route: they are open

If they are even with the DB at the time of the throw, they are open.

Alex Smith open:
2 yards and have 10-foot wingspan to catch his overthrows.

To be fair, his throw to VD against the Giants on that first touchdown was thrown when VD was still in front of the DB. The problem with Smith isn't really his ability to make the throw, the problem is his ability to read the field. He always throws to the first option if they are open, the rest of the WR's can be running 10 yards open down field, he will still make the throw to his first read. If the first read is a deep route, then we'll get a touchdown, if the first read is a 2 yard gain, then we get a two yard gain.

If that is he case then im not going to put it on Smith as thats what coaches want QBs who are developing and learning the offense to do: you know, cut the field in half type of mentality until they are ready to break loose.

Feb 20, 2012 at 3:41 PM

#72

sfninerfanMax
Veteran
Posts: 1,725

if I am honest about the NFC Title game--the niners lost because of:

1. Kyle Williams mistake
2. Not running the ball enough--we ran the ball really well that game except for the 2 Dixon carries.

We do need to add a # 1 WR to the team--we lack that.

Feb 20, 2012 at 3:49 PM

#73

ImaMod
Veteran
Posts: 10,482

Originally posted by sfninerfanMax:
if I am honest about the NFC Title game--the niners lost because of:

1. Kyle Williams mistake
2. Not running the ball enough--we ran the ball really well that game except for the 2 Dixon carries.

We do need to add a # 1 WR to the team--we lack that.

completely agree. should've ran more
And that Bradshaw no fumble call

Mar 2, 2012 at 7:00 AM

#74

Irish40Niner
Veteran
Posts: 2,570

I hope I am wrong on this one. I think if we make all the necessary moves to put all the pieces around Alex to succeed, his ceiling is still only becoming a decent qb. Like a Matt hasslebeck type of player. That with our superb defense and special teams may be enough to make perennial playoff contenders and maybe a superbowl. I want more than that for our team. Off the top of my head can only think of one game manager type of qb that has won multiple superbowls and that is troy aikman. Alex imo doesn't have the technique or accuracy of aikman. I think with an eventual upgrade at qb our team will be unstoppable.

Mar 2, 2012 at 9:13 AM

#75

jdt84_2
Veteran
Posts: 25,969

Originally posted by Irish40Niner:
I hope I am wrong on this one. I think if we make all the necessary moves to put all the pieces around Alex to succeed, his ceiling is still only becoming a decent qb. Like a Matt hasslebeck type of player. That with our superb defense and special teams may be enough to make perennial playoff contenders and maybe a superbowl. I want more than that for our team. Off the top of my head can only think of one game manager type of qb that has won multiple superbowls and that is troy aikman. Alex imo doesn't have the technique or accuracy of aikman. I think with an eventual upgrade at qb our team will be unstoppable.

Tom brady.