There are 129 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Dilfer: "Baalke smartest football man in the league"

Originally posted by SonocoNinerFan:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
@MadDog49er - Well of course its early to make and statements with 100% accuracy and time is needed to truly judge these player moves, but your unwillingness to give Baalke credit is comical.

You say above how the "Pro-Baalke" peeps here tout the Smith drafting but run away from Taylor Mays and Colin Kaepernick.

1) Mays. Mays was a mistake. It seems pretty clear to me that Sing wanted Mays and Baalke didn't, but we'll set that aside and count it as a "mistake" for Baalke. NOBODY hits 100% of the time. NOBODY. One of the best drafts of all time by Bill Walsh (the one where he drafted Haley, Taylor and a host of others) started with Larry Roberts. Who? Larry freakin' Roberts. When Walsh came back, he traded UP to get....wait for it.....Reggie McGrew. He even chased Lawrence Phillips. This isn't to slam the legacy of Walsh. I'm just saying the BEST evaluators don't always get it right.

2) Kaepernick. Guess what? Both Harbaugh and Baalke liked Kaepernick better. Its as simple as that. Andy Dalton has played well for a rookie, but he wouldn't be playing here. He'd be doing exactly what Kaep is doing...riding the bench. This wasn't a case of them taking the guy that was left. They tried to move into the FIRST round to take Kaep. Whether you like the guy or not is irrelevant...they made a bold move to move up in the second round to go get the guy they wanted. Harbaugh is taking the same approach with Kaep as he did with Luck. Its a "redshirt" year. The Bengals did the same with Carson Palmer. Dalton playing well early doesn't make him a better player...it just means he got on the field sooner.

3) Aldon Smith. Making a bold move up is only a GOOD move if the price is right. Its just as good a decision to NOT make a bad move as it is to make a good one. They tried to move down, but couldn't find a trade partner. If the worst we can say about this pick is that they tookthe guy they really wanted a few picks early, I'll take that any day of the week. Your comment about the Falcons bold move up tells what I need to know...I think that was a STUPID move. A #2 WR isn't that important. When they don't have the picks this year to fill holes, they can look over at that #2 WR to see where they went. The Niners did something similar when they moved up for J.J. Stokes. Ya know who that lost #1 pick turned out to be the following year? Ray Lewis.

4) Your entire "bold" idea is flawed. The Niners have moved all over the place in the draft. When there was a trade to be made, they made it. Not jumping up significantly in the first round doesn't mean they aren't bold....it just means there wasn't a player there that they were willing to sacrifice that much for to make the move. Ya know else operated like that? Belichick. Ya know who used to operate like that? Walsh. I'm not saying Baalke is either of those guys...I'm just saying that your entire position is flawed.

The issues you have in free agency are comical as well. The freakin Eagles went on a binge in Free Agency. What has it gotten them? Historically the team that spend huge money on pricey free agents don't get anywhere. The only team I know of who did well with big name free agents was the '94 49ers....and even then they got most of those players at bargain basement prices (Deion, Rickey Jackson and Oats took small contracts). The rest (Norton, Plummer, etc) didn't break the bank. The teams that historically succeed in Free Agency wait it out and get bargains. They get good players at lower prices and don't overpay (again, Belichick). I'm not suggesting he'll be a better player, but right now Rogers is outplaying Nnamdi.


Bottom line to all of this, I do understand your hesitancy to give Baalke credit, but I think you are too quick to go the other way. Of course all of this takes time. Aldon may tank from this point or he could be a superstar. Kaep may never see the field or he could be another Andrew Luck. Nobody knows at this point.

I think its fair to say tho that it APPEARS at this point that Baalke has done very well.


Don't hate on Larry Roberts. He was a significant contributor to the DL rotation for the back-to-back teams in 1988/89.

Yeah. OK. I never liked Roberts.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
@MadDog49er - Well of course its early to make and statements with 100% accuracy and time is needed to truly judge these player moves, but your unwillingness to give Baalke credit is comical.

You say above how the "Pro-Baalke" peeps here tout the Smith drafting but run away from Taylor Mays and Colin Kaepernick.

1) Mays. Mays was a mistake. It seems pretty clear to me that Sing wanted Mays and Baalke didn't, but we'll set that aside and count it as a "mistake" for Baalke. NOBODY hits 100% of the time. NOBODY. One of the best drafts of all time by Bill Walsh (the one where he drafted Haley, Taylor and a host of others) started with Larry Roberts. Who? Larry freakin' Roberts. When Walsh came back, he traded UP to get....wait for it.....Reggie McGrew. He even chased Lawrence Phillips. This isn't to slam the legacy of Walsh. I'm just saying the BEST evaluators don't always get it right.

2) Kaepernick. Guess what? Both Harbaugh and Baalke liked Kaepernick better. Its as simple as that. Andy Dalton has played well for a rookie, but he wouldn't be playing here. He'd be doing exactly what Kaep is doing...riding the bench. This wasn't a case of them taking the guy that was left. They tried to move into the FIRST round to take Kaep. Whether you like the guy or not is irrelevant...they made a bold move to move up in the second round to go get the guy they wanted. Harbaugh is taking the same approach with Kaep as he did with Luck. Its a "redshirt" year. The Bengals did the same with Carson Palmer. Dalton playing well early doesn't make him a better player...it just means he got on the field sooner.

3) Aldon Smith. Making a bold move up is only a GOOD move if the price is right. Its just as good a decision to NOT make a bad move as it is to make a good one. They tried to move down, but couldn't find a trade partner. If the worst we can say about this pick is that they tookthe guy they really wanted a few picks early, I'll take that any day of the week. Your comment about the Falcons bold move up tells what I need to know...I think that was a STUPID move. A #2 WR isn't that important. When they don't have the picks this year to fill holes, they can look over at that #2 WR to see where they went. The Niners did something similar when they moved up for J.J. Stokes. Ya know who that lost #1 pick turned out to be the following year? Ray Lewis.

4) Your entire "bold" idea is flawed. The Niners have moved all over the place in the draft. When there was a trade to be made, they made it. Not jumping up significantly in the first round doesn't mean they aren't bold....it just means there wasn't a player there that they were willing to sacrifice that much for to make the move. Ya know else operated like that? Belichick. Ya know who used to operate like that? Walsh. I'm not saying Baalke is either of those guys...I'm just saying that your entire position is flawed.

The issues you have in free agency are comical as well. The freakin Eagles went on a binge in Free Agency. What has it gotten them? Historically the team that spend huge money on pricey free agents don't get anywhere. The only team I know of who did well with big name free agents was the '94 49ers....and even then they got most of those players at bargain basement prices (Deion, Rickey Jackson and Oats took small contracts). The rest (Norton, Plummer, etc) didn't break the bank. The teams that historically succeed in Free Agency wait it out and get bargains. They get good players at lower prices and don't overpay (again, Belichick). I'm not suggesting he'll be a better player, but right now Rogers is outplaying Nnamdi.


Bottom line to all of this, I do understand your hesitancy to give Baalke credit, but I think you are too quick to go the other way. Of course all of this takes time. Aldon may tank from this point or he could be a superstar. Kaep may never see the field or he could be another Andrew Luck. Nobody knows at this point.

I think its fair to say tho that it APPEARS at this point that Baalke has done very well.

Lot to discuss. I will attempt to be brief. The only person held accountable for not being 100%, by some on the board, is me. Some people will drag stuff out from 5 years ago and attempt to discredit me. They will do the same in 2011 when I gave Aldon Smith a C grade in my post-draft write up. You are right. Nobody is 100% accurate. The reason I bring up Mays is all the hang-wringing that took place on the board when it was stated that Baalke had the last call on the Mays pick. It was his call, the beat writers have stated this, but for many, all the blame falls on Singletary. The pattern of hang-wringing on behalf of Baalke is nauseating to me. Just accept that he missed, and move on. I'm glad you are one stand-up person who can.

As stated with AD and CK, nobody knows who will be the better pro "long term", as I keep repeating to some on this board. Right now, it appears AD is the better player, as he is playing at a pretty high level already as a starter. CK will need to really step up his game to match Dalton. This also goes for A. Smith and Watt, who are both off to good starts, but one or the other, or both, may end stinking in the end. I am not asking people to shower compliments on me for Watt, nor am I asking for the angry responses in regards to Smith. It is simply too early in the game for people to play the "Aha" game, or for me to call "victory". Plus, this is silly game playing, I believe I have outgrown that phase of my life, and I have better uses for my time.

As stated before, the Niners have made some moves up the board in the draft. I'm not so sure moving up from 13 to 11 is a really bold move, nor nine slots to pick CK (there was nobody left on the board to take at QB, so they were forced to move up...the next QB selected was Mallett with the 74th pick). I did salute Baalke's approach to make these moves (even though I had Mike Iupati and Dez Bryant as the top players on the board when the team selected), and wish he took the same way approach in free agency. To sit back and wait until the market dries out is not a winning proposition long-term. Over time, this strategy will land the team a host of mediocre players. At some point, you have to make a splash to get game-changing talent. Justin Smith was a splash. Nate Clements was a splash. Both guys were significant upgrades over previous players, and Smith is still a terrific talent. Under Baalke's approach, we would not have him on our roster. The Niners, under Baalke, do not seemed inclined to pay this form of money for specific talent, and I think have a roster of lower-level and mid-level players is not going to put the team, long-term in a positive direction. Let's visit this after free agency this year, and down the road.
[ Edited by MadDog49er on Oct 28, 2011 at 10:28 AM ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Good question on the OLB position. For me, you can't conquer every position in one year, especially if there isn't a strong market in a certain position. So, 2011 is not a year I would have made significant changes at OLB. The combination of Manny, Brooks, and Haralson was not a bad combination. It certainly wasn't that dynamic, but as stated, there were higher needs (CB, C, G, etc.). To me, 2012 was the better year to address that issue.

I think many are still jumping the gun on the Niners' success in FA. With all of the uncertainty of free agency in 2012, this team could regress if the guys who signed one year contracts, added with the guys who were on the roster last year with expiring 2011 contracts decide to bolt. And, these guys that are off to a good start may not pan out over the 16 game schedule. Just too many variables. That is why I stated that he "may be the luckiest", not that "he is the luckiest". Too early to tell.

Being called out is a regularity by those who cannot fathom Trent Baalke making bad decisions or having an inept long-range game plan. I am willing to admit he may be right in the long road. Others are not willing to give my opinion the benefit of the doubt. Not a surprise when someone challenges the authority of Niners' management. However, the hostility and anger and attempt to smear my character by a handful of people is really bizarre.

I am just wondering why you think you know how to run a team better than the professionals. I generally like your posts, some of them are pretty insightful, but to make posts that call out a professional based on your opinion seems a little arrogant. that is why you get so much flak man, you just do not come across like you comprehend that running a teams personnel is a little more complicated than posting on a message board what your opinion is. Baalke has done a great job to this point and deserves credit for what he has done so far, which is improve the team from 1-5 last year at this point to 5-1 by landing a top coach and making smart moves in free agency. You invite ridicule when you state your case in the way that you do, I mean aren't you a teacher? I don't condone folks berating any of my brother niner fans, but you have to kind of expect it when you make outrageous statements.
  • AmpLee
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 16,877
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
@MadDog49er - Well of course its early to make and statements with 100% accuracy and time is needed to truly judge these player moves, but your unwillingness to give Baalke credit is comical.

You say above how the "Pro-Baalke" peeps here tout the Smith drafting but run away from Taylor Mays and Colin Kaepernick.

1) Mays. Mays was a mistake. It seems pretty clear to me that Sing wanted Mays and Baalke didn't, but we'll set that aside and count it as a "mistake" for Baalke. NOBODY hits 100% of the time. NOBODY. One of the best drafts of all time by Bill Walsh (the one where he drafted Haley, Taylor and a host of others) started with Larry Roberts. Who? Larry freakin' Roberts. When Walsh came back, he traded UP to get....wait for it.....Reggie McGrew. He even chased Lawrence Phillips. This isn't to slam the legacy of Walsh. I'm just saying the BEST evaluators don't always get it right.

2) Kaepernick. Guess what? Both Harbaugh and Baalke liked Kaepernick better. Its as simple as that. Andy Dalton has played well for a rookie, but he wouldn't be playing here. He'd be doing exactly what Kaep is doing...riding the bench. This wasn't a case of them taking the guy that was left. They tried to move into the FIRST round to take Kaep. Whether you like the guy or not is irrelevant...they made a bold move to move up in the second round to go get the guy they wanted. Harbaugh is taking the same approach with Kaep as he did with Luck. Its a "redshirt" year. The Bengals did the same with Carson Palmer. Dalton playing well early doesn't make him a better player...it just means he got on the field sooner.

3) Aldon Smith. Making a bold move up is only a GOOD move if the price is right. Its just as good a decision to NOT make a bad move as it is to make a good one. They tried to move down, but couldn't find a trade partner. If the worst we can say about this pick is that they tookthe guy they really wanted a few picks early, I'll take that any day of the week. Your comment about the Falcons bold move up tells what I need to know...I think that was a STUPID move. A #2 WR isn't that important. When they don't have the picks this year to fill holes, they can look over at that #2 WR to see where they went. The Niners did something similar when they moved up for J.J. Stokes. Ya know who that lost #1 pick turned out to be the following year? Ray Lewis.

4) Your entire "bold" idea is flawed. The Niners have moved all over the place in the draft. When there was a trade to be made, they made it. Not jumping up significantly in the first round doesn't mean they aren't bold....it just means there wasn't a player there that they were willing to sacrifice that much for to make the move. Ya know else operated like that? Belichick. Ya know who used to operate like that? Walsh. I'm not saying Baalke is either of those guys...I'm just saying that your entire position is flawed.

The issues you have in free agency are comical as well. The freakin Eagles went on a binge in Free Agency. What has it gotten them? Historically the team that spend huge money on pricey free agents don't get anywhere. The only team I know of who did well with big name free agents was the '94 49ers....and even then they got most of those players at bargain basement prices (Deion, Rickey Jackson and Oats took small contracts). The rest (Norton, Plummer, etc) didn't break the bank. The teams that historically succeed in Free Agency wait it out and get bargains. They get good players at lower prices and don't overpay (again, Belichick). I'm not suggesting he'll be a better player, but right now Rogers is outplaying Nnamdi.


Bottom line to all of this, I do understand your hesitancy to give Baalke credit, but I think you are too quick to go the other way. Of course all of this takes time. Aldon may tank from this point or he could be a superstar. Kaep may never see the field or he could be another Andrew Luck. Nobody knows at this point.

I think its fair to say tho that it APPEARS at this point that Baalke has done very well.

Lot to discuss. I will attempt to be brief. The only person held accountable for not being 100% is me. People will drag stuff out from 5 years ago and attempt to discredit me. They will do the same in 2011 when I gave Aldon Smith a C grade in my pre-draft write up. You are right. Nobody is 100% accurate. The reason I bring up Mays is all the hang-wringing that takes place on the board when it is stated that Baalke had the last call on the Mays pick. It was his call, the beat writers have stated this, but for many, all the blame falls on Singletary. The pattern of hang-wringing on behalf of Baalke is nauseating to me. Just accept that he missed. I'm glad you are one who can.

As stated with AD and CK, nobody knows who will be the better pro "long term", as I keep repeating myself to some on this board. Right now, it appears AD is the better player, as he is playing at a pretty high level already as a starter. CK will need to really step up his game to match Dalton. This also goes for A. Smith and Watt, who are both off to good starts, but may end stinking in the end. I am not asking people to shower compliments on me for Watt, nor am I asking for the angry responses in regards to Smith. It is simply too early in the game for people to play the "Aha" game, or for me to call "victory". That is silly game playing, I believe I have outgrown that phase of my life, and I have better uses for my time.

As stated before, the Niners have made some moves up the board. I'm not so sure moving up from 13 to 11 is a really bold move, nor one slot to pick CK, but I did salute Baalke for taking that approach, which is the same way he should approach free agency. To sit back and wait until the market dries out is not a winning proposition long-term. Over time, this strategy will land the team a host of mediocre players. At some point, you have to make a splash. Justin Smith was a splash. Nate Clements was a splash. Both guys were significant upgrades over previous players, and Smith is still a terrific talent. The Niners, under Baalke, do not seemed inclined to pay this form of money for specific talent, and I think have a roster of lower-level and mid-level players is not going to put the team, long-term in a positive direction. Let's visit this after free agency this year, and down the road.

You keep sidestepping your prognostications. You were wrong. Just admit it. Aldon Smith is far better than you predicted. The Niners are far better than you predicted. Baalke has done a far better job than you predicted. Etc. We don't need to wait to see how things are down the road. You predicted the Niners to go 6-10 with a better shot to go 4-12 than 8-8. Eat your crow already. We're all fans. You aren't above being wrong just like the others that admitted being wrong. You know what's funny, now you are preaching being patient, when the whole offseason anyone who said to be patient and wait to see how these moves worked out, got you railing on them. Bssssh, no need to be patient, you have been wrong with a number of things to this point. Admit it, unless you enjoy people believing you to be a narcissist.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Good question on the OLB position. For me, you can't conquer every position in one year, especially if there isn't a strong market in a certain position. So, 2011 is not a year I would have made significant changes at OLB. The combination of Manny, Brooks, and Haralson was not a bad combination. It certainly wasn't that dynamic, but as stated, there were higher needs (CB, C, G, etc.). To me, 2012 was the better year to address that issue.

I think many are still jumping the gun on the Niners' success in FA. With all of the uncertainty of free agency in 2012, this team could regress if the guys who signed one year contracts, added with the guys who were on the roster last year with expiring 2011 contracts decide to bolt. And, these guys that are off to a good start may not pan out over the 16 game schedule. Just too many variables. That is why I stated that he "may be the luckiest", not that "he is the luckiest". Too early to tell.

Being called out is a regularity by those who cannot fathom Trent Baalke making bad decisions or having an inept long-range game plan. I am willing to admit he may be right in the long road. Others are not willing to give my opinion the benefit of the doubt. Not a surprise when someone challenges the authority of Niners' management. However, the hostility and anger and attempt to smear my character by a handful of people is really bizarre.

I'm quite sure the coaches had input into the draft/free agency period. Clearly they felt that Manny didn't fit what they were trying to do.

Not addressing OLB would've been a big mistake. It's been a position we've ignored for way too long. You cannot run a 3-4 D with guys who cant rush the passer at OLB. The front office was able to analyze the guys we had on the team who were worth re-signing and Manny wasn't one of those guys. I'm sure if they felt strongly about his abilities they would've brought him back, and this is coming from a Lawson fan. They felt that way about Ray McDonald and so far he's proving them right as our DL hasn't missed a beat and in Aldon we have a guy who can rush the passer with consistency from the outside and a guy who should only get better as a player with playing time.

JJ Watt is a very good player and I would've loved to have him here but you can't have everything. We took a guy who addressed a need and improved the team while paired with another player. We are not this good on defense with just JJ Watt and maybe Manny Lawson - let's not forget just because we thought some guys would re-sign like Spikes and Baas didn't make it so.
  • Wodwo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,104
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
However, the hostility and anger and attempt to smear my character by a handful of people is really bizarre.

No... it isn't.

You reap what you sow.
So far its looking like Trent Baalke is doing a good job. He got Harbaugh so that in itself makes him succesful at this point in time. Time will tell and I do believe its still early to say he is good or bad. His draft picks this year have looked good but again too early to tell. Its hard to keep an even keel when the niners are doing so well. We all want to say everything is great to include myself. As far as FA players wanting to bolt to other team some may but most of them will stay as long as we are going in the right direction. Remember most of these guys havnt ever been to a playoff game and they prob will stick around. What is going to be nice is that other FAs from other teams are going to want to come and play as a niner. Wont cost as much money to sign them like it use to. Winning breeds success and with that comes the chance for a Super Bowl and thats what players are after. I hope Baalke keeps up the good work and good luck to the Niners.
Originally posted by Memphis9er:
I am just wondering why you think you know how to run a team better than the professionals. I generally like your posts, some of them are pretty insightful, but to make posts that call out a professional based on your opinion seems a little arrogant. that is why you get so much flak man, you just do not come across like you comprehend that running a teams personnel is a little more complicated than posting on a message board what your opinion is. Baalke has done a great job to this point and deserves credit for what he has done so far, which is improve the team from 1-5 last year at this point to 5-1 by landing a top coach and making smart moves in free agency. You invite ridicule when you state your case in the way that you do, I mean aren't you a teacher? I don't condone folks berating any of my brother niner fans, but you have to kind of expect it when you make outrageous statements.

If I posted my bpa board over the last handful of years compared to the previous two GM's, I think you would believe I know what I am doing. For instance, in Baalke's first year of the draft, Baalke ended up with Davis, Iupati and Mays with his selections. On my board, and it is visible in the Draft Forum, it was Iupati first (I had him graded out the 8th best player in the draft), Dez Bryant (graded as the 10th best player), and Morgan Burnett (graded I believe 24th overall). These are three Pro-Bowl potential players.

This year, I had JJ Watt, Rodney Hudson of the Chiefs, and Curtis Brown my first, second, third rounders, with no trade ups (I wanted the Harbaugh to have the chance to work with Alex Smith so we didn't burn an unneccessary high draftee at QB who will rot on the bench. I had Tyrod Taylor as a 5th rounder to play backup. We'll see who is right in the long run.

All of my work is public, so anyone can view what I had on draft day.

People are going to get upset when someone questions management. That is to be expected. However, if you are really being fair, re-read the comments from the previous page and see who is making the outrageous statements. My comments allow for the potential for Baalke to be right in the long-term. Others do not share the same latitude the other way around.
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
@MadDog49er - Well of course its early to make and statements with 100% accuracy and time is needed to truly judge these player moves, but your unwillingness to give Baalke credit is comical.

You say above how the "Pro-Baalke" peeps here tout the Smith drafting but run away from Taylor Mays and Colin Kaepernick.

1) Mays. Mays was a mistake. It seems pretty clear to me that Sing wanted Mays and Baalke didn't, but we'll set that aside and count it as a "mistake" for Baalke. NOBODY hits 100% of the time. NOBODY. One of the best drafts of all time by Bill Walsh (the one where he drafted Haley, Taylor and a host of others) started with Larry Roberts. Who? Larry freakin' Roberts. When Walsh came back, he traded UP to get....wait for it.....Reggie McGrew. He even chased Lawrence Phillips. This isn't to slam the legacy of Walsh. I'm just saying the BEST evaluators don't always get it right.

2) Kaepernick. Guess what? Both Harbaugh and Baalke liked Kaepernick better. Its as simple as that. Andy Dalton has played well for a rookie, but he wouldn't be playing here. He'd be doing exactly what Kaep is doing...riding the bench. This wasn't a case of them taking the guy that was left. They tried to move into the FIRST round to take Kaep. Whether you like the guy or not is irrelevant...they made a bold move to move up in the second round to go get the guy they wanted. Harbaugh is taking the same approach with Kaep as he did with Luck. Its a "redshirt" year. The Bengals did the same with Carson Palmer. Dalton playing well early doesn't make him a better player...it just means he got on the field sooner.

3) Aldon Smith. Making a bold move up is only a GOOD move if the price is right. Its just as good a decision to NOT make a bad move as it is to make a good one. They tried to move down, but couldn't find a trade partner. If the worst we can say about this pick is that they tookthe guy they really wanted a few picks early, I'll take that any day of the week. Your comment about the Falcons bold move up tells what I need to know...I think that was a STUPID move. A #2 WR isn't that important. When they don't have the picks this year to fill holes, they can look over at that #2 WR to see where they went. The Niners did something similar when they moved up for J.J. Stokes. Ya know who that lost #1 pick turned out to be the following year? Ray Lewis.

4) Your entire "bold" idea is flawed. The Niners have moved all over the place in the draft. When there was a trade to be made, they made it. Not jumping up significantly in the first round doesn't mean they aren't bold....it just means there wasn't a player there that they were willing to sacrifice that much for to make the move. Ya know else operated like that? Belichick. Ya know who used to operate like that? Walsh. I'm not saying Baalke is either of those guys...I'm just saying that your entire position is flawed.

The issues you have in free agency are comical as well. The freakin Eagles went on a binge in Free Agency. What has it gotten them? Historically the team that spend huge money on pricey free agents don't get anywhere. The only team I know of who did well with big name free agents was the '94 49ers....and even then they got most of those players at bargain basement prices (Deion, Rickey Jackson and Oats took small contracts). The rest (Norton, Plummer, etc) didn't break the bank. The teams that historically succeed in Free Agency wait it out and get bargains. They get good players at lower prices and don't overpay (again, Belichick). I'm not suggesting he'll be a better player, but right now Rogers is outplaying Nnamdi.


Bottom line to all of this, I do understand your hesitancy to give Baalke credit, but I think you are too quick to go the other way. Of course all of this takes time. Aldon may tank from this point or he could be a superstar. Kaep may never see the field or he could be another Andrew Luck. Nobody knows at this point.

I think its fair to say tho that it APPEARS at this point that Baalke has done very well.

Lot to discuss. I will attempt to be brief. The only person held accountable for not being 100%, by some on the board, is me. Some people will drag stuff out from 5 years ago and attempt to discredit me. They will do the same in 2011 when I gave Aldon Smith a C grade in my post-draft write up. You are right. Nobody is 100% accurate. The reason I bring up Mays is all the hang-wringing that took place on the board when it was stated that Baalke had the last call on the Mays pick. It was his call, the beat writers have stated this, but for many, all the blame falls on Singletary. The pattern of hang-wringing on behalf of Baalke is nauseating to me. Just accept that he missed, and move on. I'm glad you are one stand-up person who can.

As stated with AD and CK, nobody knows who will be the better pro "long term", as I keep repeating to some on this board. Right now, it appears AD is the better player, as he is playing at a pretty high level already as a starter. CK will need to really step up his game to match Dalton. This also goes for A. Smith and Watt, who are both off to good starts, but one or the other, or both, may end stinking in the end. I am not asking people to shower compliments on me for Watt, nor am I asking for the angry responses in regards to Smith. It is simply too early in the game for people to play the "Aha" game, or for me to call "victory". Plus, this is silly game playing, I believe I have outgrown that phase of my life, and I have better uses for my time.

As stated before, the Niners have made some moves up the board in the draft. I'm not so sure moving up from 13 to 11 is a really bold move, nor one slot to pick CK, but I did salute Baalke for taking that approach, which is the same way he should approach free agency. To sit back and wait until the market dries out is not a winning proposition long-term. Over time, this strategy will land the team a host of mediocre players. At some point, you have to make a splash to get game-changing talent. Justin Smith was a splash. Nate Clements was a splash. Both guys were significant upgrades over previous players, and Smith is still a terrific talent. Under Baalke's approach, we would not have him on our roster. The Niners, under Baalke, do not seemed inclined to pay this form of money for specific talent, and I think have a roster of lower-level and mid-level players is not going to put the team, long-term in a positive direction. Let's visit this after free agency this year, and down the road.

To be honest, I don't even know what you have said in the past because I don't keep a scorecard. I'm surprised others do because there are things every one of us has said on this board that would look pretty stupid 6 months later.

I still disagree on Dalton tho. What you are saying makes sense, but nothing has changed in this regard since draft day. The entire appeal of Dalton was that he was more pro-ready. He was always going to be a guy who was further along. Taking Kaep was a move toward the future. The idea with Kaep was that he most likely wouldn't play this year. Physically, he is FAR superior to Dalton. He's got a good head on his shoulders and he's smart. He's got the pieces, he just needs Harbaugh to put it together. Who knows if he can. The project may fail miserably. To me tho, bringing back Smith to play this year and then grooming Kaep with all of the potential he has was the right move. BTW...they didn't move up just one spot. They moved up 9 spots. Not sure if thats what you meant.

I also think you are way off-base in regards to Free Agency. This years Free Agency was completely loony. The Niners made a play for Nnamdi. That would have been bold, but Nnamdi wasn't going to play here. So instead of signing another guy who wasn't worth it to a HUGE deal, they were PATIENT. THAT is a sign of a good GM. Someone who doesn't panic and gives up to much money for the next guy because he's afraid he'll miss out. They rode it out. You call that luck. I call it well done. They took a shot at Hasselbeck, but he thought the chance on Tenn was better.

Baalke didn't just sit there and do nothing and then get lucky. He took his swings, missed, and then didn't panic. Thats how its done.

You make another argument about how alot of these guys on 1 year deals will be Free Agents again next year. I see that from an entirely different perspective. Thats GOOD. They aren't locked into Rogers or Braylon for long term. This was a 1 year "tryout". If they play well, they will get extended. The Niners didn't use theri entire cap, so if these guy s look like contributors, look for the Niners to use some of THIS years cap to extend them.

Is is possible that Baalke just got lucky? Yes. Do I think its likely tho? No. Given the information we have right now (small sample size), it looks to me like he did very well and that he has the right approach to player personel. We will be able to see even better next year when the Niners are viewed as a winning organization, so more players will look at the Niners as a good place to play.
Originally posted by AmpLee:
You keep sidestepping your prognostications. You were wrong. Just admit it. Aldon Smith is far better than you predicted. The Niners are far better than you predicted. Baalke has done a far better job than you predicted. Etc. We don't need to wait to see how things are down the road. You predicted the Niners to go 6-10 with a better shot to go 4-12 than 8-8. Eat your crow already. We're all fans. You aren't above being wrong just like the others that admitted being wrong. You know what's funny, now you are preaching being patient, when the whole offseason anyone who said to be patient and wait to see how these moves worked out, got you railing on them. Bssssh, no need to be patient, you have been wrong with a number of things to this point. Admit it, unless you enjoy people believing you to be a narcissist.

I have already admitted before, in multiple threads, on multiple boards, that the team and Aldon have been better than expected. It doesn't mean I was wrong, because you cannot base a career on six games. The team could continue playing great, and Aldon could continue improving, or it could go the other way around. Just too early to make concrete statements. All we can do is give progress report grades and so far, so good.

Not sure why you are so angry.
  • AmpLee
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 16,877
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by AmpLee:
You keep sidestepping your prognostications. You were wrong. Just admit it. Aldon Smith is far better than you predicted. The Niners are far better than you predicted. Baalke has done a far better job than you predicted. Etc. We don't need to wait to see how things are down the road. You predicted the Niners to go 6-10 with a better shot to go 4-12 than 8-8. Eat your crow already. We're all fans. You aren't above being wrong just like the others that admitted being wrong. You know what's funny, now you are preaching being patient, when the whole offseason anyone who said to be patient and wait to see how these moves worked out, got you railing on them. Bssssh, no need to be patient, you have been wrong with a number of things to this point. Admit it, unless you enjoy people believing you to be a narcissist.

I have already admitted before, in multiple threads, on multiple boards, that the team and Aldon have been better than expected. It doesn't mean I was wrong, because you cannot base a career on six games. The team could continue playing great, and Aldon could continue improving, or it could go the other way around. Just too early to make concrete statements. All we can do is give progress report grades and so far, so good.

Not sure why you are so angry.

LOL, I'm not angry at all. I just think it would behoove you to admit when YOU were wrong. You go around and condescend people on this board all offseason then sidestep the points you were making when things turn out differently. You were wrong about Aldon Smith to this point. You did not think he would be effective at all to start his career. In fact the only hope you gave him was after this season. You were completely wrong. We don't need to see his whole career to see that he's a DROY candidate already. You didn't think he'd do anything this year. Wrong.

Anyway, I'll just leave this here since you claim to haven given Baalke enough leeway to be a competent GM (right )...

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I am hearing a lot of excuses for Trent. Good GM's don't live on excuses. They get the job done, period. I understand that you enjoy our GM and the outstanding work he is doing putting this 5-11 team together. Maybe you enjoy the 5-11 49ers. I don't. I expect brilliance, the best in the business, a master poker player who knows what he is doing, not stumbling around like some idiot, begging for patience, and that they have a plan. If you want a team that lives in mediocrity, switch allegiance to the Lions. That is a perfect club for you. I am a fan of the 5 time Super Bowl winning 49ers, the team of Montana, Rice, Lott, Walsh, and company. When John Clayton says that he has never heard of a GM sending a mass e-mail around the league to peddle a player, I tend to believe him. The guy is goofy looking, but is pretty locked into what is happening behind the scenes. This stroke of genius, on a juvenile level, is something that should be enraging to 49ers fans. Instead, we actually defend this action, the inactivity to find a difference making free agent, the problems we are having with Gore, being blindsided with what happened with Baas, our inability to land the player the team really wanted in the draft (Patrick Peterson), and mucho, mucho more. Maybe you enjoy the circus, but I want a winner. I am tired of guys who do not know what they are doing running our club. Maybe you will enjoy another decade of playoff-less football, but I think the opposite. You can have your Trent Baalke, Mike Nolan, Mike Singletary. I chose winners. Yay, Trent Baalke. I've got your back. You are the man. I will defend you against the evil MadDog. How dare he attack your greatness.
[ Edited by AmpLee on Oct 28, 2011 at 10:56 AM ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
@MadDog49er - Well of course its early to make and statements with 100% accuracy and time is needed to truly judge these player moves, but your unwillingness to give Baalke credit is comical.

You say above how the "Pro-Baalke" peeps here tout the Smith drafting but run away from Taylor Mays and Colin Kaepernick.

1) Mays. Mays was a mistake. It seems pretty clear to me that Sing wanted Mays and Baalke didn't, but we'll set that aside and count it as a "mistake" for Baalke. NOBODY hits 100% of the time. NOBODY. One of the best drafts of all time by Bill Walsh (the one where he drafted Haley, Taylor and a host of others) started with Larry Roberts. Who? Larry freakin' Roberts. When Walsh came back, he traded UP to get....wait for it.....Reggie McGrew. He even chased Lawrence Phillips. This isn't to slam the legacy of Walsh. I'm just saying the BEST evaluators don't always get it right.

2) Kaepernick. Guess what? Both Harbaugh and Baalke liked Kaepernick better. Its as simple as that. Andy Dalton has played well for a rookie, but he wouldn't be playing here. He'd be doing exactly what Kaep is doing...riding the bench. This wasn't a case of them taking the guy that was left. They tried to move into the FIRST round to take Kaep. Whether you like the guy or not is irrelevant...they made a bold move to move up in the second round to go get the guy they wanted. Harbaugh is taking the same approach with Kaep as he did with Luck. Its a "redshirt" year. The Bengals did the same with Carson Palmer. Dalton playing well early doesn't make him a better player...it just means he got on the field sooner.

3) Aldon Smith. Making a bold move up is only a GOOD move if the price is right. Its just as good a decision to NOT make a bad move as it is to make a good one. They tried to move down, but couldn't find a trade partner. If the worst we can say about this pick is that they tookthe guy they really wanted a few picks early, I'll take that any day of the week. Your comment about the Falcons bold move up tells what I need to know...I think that was a STUPID move. A #2 WR isn't that important. When they don't have the picks this year to fill holes, they can look over at that #2 WR to see where they went. The Niners did something similar when they moved up for J.J. Stokes. Ya know who that lost #1 pick turned out to be the following year? Ray Lewis.

4) Your entire "bold" idea is flawed. The Niners have moved all over the place in the draft. When there was a trade to be made, they made it. Not jumping up significantly in the first round doesn't mean they aren't bold....it just means there wasn't a player there that they were willing to sacrifice that much for to make the move. Ya know else operated like that? Belichick. Ya know who used to operate like that? Walsh. I'm not saying Baalke is either of those guys...I'm just saying that your entire position is flawed.

The issues you have in free agency are comical as well. The freakin Eagles went on a binge in Free Agency. What has it gotten them? Historically the team that spend huge money on pricey free agents don't get anywhere. The only team I know of who did well with big name free agents was the '94 49ers....and even then they got most of those players at bargain basement prices (Deion, Rickey Jackson and Oats took small contracts). The rest (Norton, Plummer, etc) didn't break the bank. The teams that historically succeed in Free Agency wait it out and get bargains. They get good players at lower prices and don't overpay (again, Belichick). I'm not suggesting he'll be a better player, but right now Rogers is outplaying Nnamdi.


Bottom line to all of this, I do understand your hesitancy to give Baalke credit, but I think you are too quick to go the other way. Of course all of this takes time. Aldon may tank from this point or he could be a superstar. Kaep may never see the field or he could be another Andrew Luck. Nobody knows at this point.

I think its fair to say tho that it APPEARS at this point that Baalke has done very well.

Lot to discuss. I will attempt to be brief. The only person held accountable for not being 100%, by some on the board, is me. Some people will drag stuff out from 5 years ago and attempt to discredit me. They will do the same in 2011 when I gave Aldon Smith a C grade in my post-draft write up. You are right. Nobody is 100% accurate. The reason I bring up Mays is all the hang-wringing that took place on the board when it was stated that Baalke had the last call on the Mays pick. It was his call, the beat writers have stated this, but for many, all the blame falls on Singletary. The pattern of hang-wringing on behalf of Baalke is nauseating to me. Just accept that he missed, and move on. I'm glad you are one stand-up person who can.

As stated with AD and CK, nobody knows who will be the better pro "long term", as I keep repeating to some on this board. Right now, it appears AD is the better player, as he is playing at a pretty high level already as a starter. CK will need to really step up his game to match Dalton. This also goes for A. Smith and Watt, who are both off to good starts, but one or the other, or both, may end stinking in the end. I am not asking people to shower compliments on me for Watt, nor am I asking for the angry responses in regards to Smith. It is simply too early in the game for people to play the "Aha" game, or for me to call "victory". Plus, this is silly game playing, I believe I have outgrown that phase of my life, and I have better uses for my time.

As stated before, the Niners have made some moves up the board in the draft. I'm not so sure moving up from 13 to 11 is a really bold move, nor nine slots to pick CK (there was nobody left on the board to take at QB, so they were forced to move up...the next QB selected was Mallett with the 74th pick). I did salute Baalke's approach to make these moves (even though I had Mike Iupati and Dez Bryant as the top players on the board when the team selected), and wish he took the same way approach in free agency. To sit back and wait until the market dries out is not a winning proposition long-term. Over time, this strategy will land the team a host of mediocre players. At some point, you have to make a splash to get game-changing talent. Justin Smith was a splash. Nate Clements was a splash. Both guys were significant upgrades over previous players, and Smith is still a terrific talent. Under Baalke's approach, we would not have him on our roster. The Niners, under Baalke, do not seemed inclined to pay this form of money for specific talent, and I think have a roster of lower-level and mid-level players is not going to put the team, long-term in a positive direction. Let's visit this after free agency this year, and down the road.

People who make themselves targets often get targeted, so quit playing dumb. Fact is that you like to make yourself a target because you want to be the center of attention. The bolded parts are a classic example of your condescending BS. He wasn't saying that Baalke made a mistake in drafting Mays. What he said was the Mays pick was a mistake and that Baalke deferred to Singletary (which GM's do sometimes), so he would chalk it up to a "mistake" and move on. You knew exactly what he was saying but decided to respond in classic MD fashion and twist his words in order to back your agenda and to be a smart ass.

I'm not going to really get into too much of this because you are clearly a person that cannot have a rational debate or concede anything (I truly applaud your work as a school teacher, but I would hate to have someone like you as a teacher. Based on your posts, you remind me of a philosophy professor I had in college that thought he was god's gift to philosophy because he wrote some small, meaningless book. He, much like you was never wrong about anything. Jesus he was insufferable, but I digress) I will preface my next comment with this. I do not believe 6 games is a big enough sample size to proclaim victory just yet, and I cringed a little when people were demanding you apologize after this short amount of time. However it is laughable that you of all people chastise others for doing this when you lambasted Baalke, the FO, FA's, draft picks, beer vendors etc BEFORE the season even started and BEFORE these players even suited up. The hypocrisy and unintentional comedy here is just through the roof, as is the case with many of your posts.

I hope this post wasn't too angry for you . We all know you are such a light hearted, jovial guy because you put a and Cheers! at the end of your posts.
[ Edited by Hoovtrain on Oct 28, 2011 at 11:59 AM ]
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,155
Time for some decaf all around. I think I'll have lemonade myself.
Originally posted by dj43:
Time for some decaf all around. I think I'll have lemonade myself.

Trent Dilfer just tweeted that lemonade is the greatest liquid on this planet or any other planet and/or parallel universe.
Holy sh*t, you guys are blowing up the word count. You know we are 5-1 right.... What's there to argue about.