why do we never throw the ball down the field?

Originally posted by NinerGM:

Maybe it's me but the WCO bread-and-butter passing play is the slant. How many slants have you seen in two complete games? Not many. Why? Because Smith is not a QB who can throw timing passes without telegraphing his throw. He's not a WCO QB. This offense requires quick passes not just to RBs but over the middle. Smith rarely every threw to the middle of the field where Dallas is at its weakest - LBs covering TEs. The one TD by Walker where this happened was a formation that looked like a run where both Walker and Davis were on the same side of the field, Davis draws the double-team and Walker is ISO one-on-one. Again this wasn't a pass over the middle, it was a pass to the sidelines.

I have been a Smith supporter but it's so clear to me now more than ever that he is by far the limiting factor on this team. He simply cannot reliably throw a pass over the middle - the three-step drop slant/timing pattern to his WRs that Romo was throwing all day long. We were getting pressure on Romo all game, but he just started throwing the ball faster 3 or 5 steps (mostly 3) - timing pattern to his WRs in the open spots against our zone defense. Smith is most limited when he has to play behind center. He just doesn't read the defense well or understands what's going on because that's where most of the sacks came. When under center, he didn't change his cadence and usually audibled to a running play - never a passing play.

I'm not saying Smith is responsible for this game because clearly there were key mistakes everywhere, but you cannot ask Smith ever to put the game on his shoulders and make plays. He's just not capable. He reminds me of a Trent Dilfer type QB. However teams with those types of QBs in today's NFL aren't going very far.

He is much more accurate than Dilfer. Yesterday was on the defense and offensive line. Smith threw the pick, but the line play and defensive breakdowns are what cost the game. Before this year, if the run game was shut down, the team had no chance, this year Smith has been making plays when the line has given him time. The biggest issues on this team are oline play and defensive breakdowns. Qb play has not cost us anything.

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by b9er37:
That's because the defense knows our qb can't beat them so they can play man coverage and bring blitzers on every play.
We have been cursed with poor qb play for the past 7+ years.

True but you also have to add that no teams are scared of our slow ass wr's. That's why the box is still stacked. We've played 2 games and both opponenets are stacking the box and our WR's aren't making any big plays.

Good point, why not just take a shot or two early in the game to at least show a threat down field. Ginn or Edwards would be a great option or either TE.

About the WCO:

Doesn't Green Bay run the WCO?

Isn't Rodgers mainly set up in a shotgun? Why can't we do that?

Originally posted by captveg:
E) No time for pass blocking on 7-step drops

/End Thread

Originally posted by VDSF:
The only slant play i remember seeing most recently was the one to Josh Morgan and yeah....

and it was wide open. not sure why we haven't seen many slants. especially when they hyped up the return of slant patterns this off season.

Originally posted by Baldie:

Originally posted by moe8092:
Alex Smith.

You dont need to defend Dallas's defense on this one. Look back to last week; better yey, go back to Alex's history with the team. His game is based on short, high percentage passes regardless of the playbook. Its just defendable this year bc the WCO calls for short, high percentage passes.

The truth is that Alex just doesnt think outside the box. You dont need 7 step drops to go deep. Look at what Dallas did with NY last week. Everytime the Jets blitzed, Romo aired it out for his receivers to go grab it. High risk high reward. We3 played a depleted secondary, and Im shocked that Alex barely attempted to expose a 2nd string secondary playing one on one coverage bc of the blitz. Someone better teach Ale the "it" factor, or else every team we play this year is gonna throw blitzes at us, and you're gonna see a lot of games where we lose with Alex throwing for 15/23 158yds. 1TD. May look good for the stat gurus, but certainly not a winning stat. Romo played horribly today; still put up over 250 yards passing and won his team the game. Thats the difference.

I totally agree with you. Dallas weakness was their secondary and Alex should have taken advantage of that. Dallas took advantage of our secondary several times, most notably in OT. I mean c'mon...1st play of OT and Dallas throws deep.....we all saw that coming a mile away and the niners secondary wasn't ready for it?

It didn't help that Braylan and Crabtree were out, it could have made a difference.

Your last sentence sums up the problem. Edwards is the only legit deep threat and he caught a 21 yard pass that was well thrown, but he hurt his knee and was out the rest of the game.

Ginn isn't a legit threat as he can't catch the ball.

Morgan wouldn't even make the team in GB or Philly or half a dozen other teams that throw the ball well.

Crabtree is still MIA.

Vernon was held in to block all day yesterday.

So who do you go deep TO?

Kyle Williams made a nice catch for a TD but he has been injured and missed practice time.

The truth is; this team did not have a deep threat on the field yesterday....and then there is the OL and their underachieving is the undoing of the offense right now.

Alex Smith has enough time to make one read.

You guys crying about going down field with the ball... you know it takes slightly longer time for receivers to go downfield or doing crossing routes right...? A tick tock more than the offense usually can give Smith these days. And then occasionally, hey! There's Demarcus Ware on blocked!!

Then with the defense crowding the box, you are going to throw a slant into a bunch of fast LB standing there inside? The slant isn't automatic bread and butter like in the 80's and 90's anymore, it has become risky.

I agree with all you guys..one thing though...We implemented a new zone blocking scheme. Different way to block and different emphasis, more trust on the lineman next to you. We did this in a drastically shorted offseason with a young line. The last time i saw a team make a blocking scheme change it took half a season (Turner when he went to San Diego) before their line synched in the new system and performed. And that was for a pretty good Oline. For this team, it may take to the end of the year.

we didnt need to play air ball, we were winning by a pretty decent margin.

Originally posted by BrodieWins:

I agree with all you guys..one thing though...We implemented a new zone blocking scheme. Different way to block and different emphasis, more trust on the lineman next to you. We did this in a drastically shorted offseason with a young line. The last time i saw a team make a blocking scheme change it took half a season (Turner when he went to San Diego) before their line synched in the new system and performed. And that was for a pretty good Oline. For this team, it may take to the end of the year.

You got it, hope they get it together quickly.

Originally posted by b9er37:

Originally posted by dmax:
the offensive line cant pass protect worth a damn...thats why

Joe staley was get abused all day long...

That's because the defense knows our qb can't beat them so they can play man coverage and bring blitzers on every play.
We have been cursed with poor qb play for the past 7+ years.

Hey, wake up. This thread is about today, this year. Not last year or 5 years ago. Smith beat the defense twice for TDs yesterday on very well thrown balls.

Part of it was that Dallas knew that with only back up WRs on the field, there was no reason to panic. Romo had Witten, the best pass receiving TE in football and Miles Austin, a top 10 receiver. Smith had guys that wouldn't make the roster on most other teams. Who you gonna throw to?

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Maybe it's me but the WCO bread-and-butter passing play is the slant. How many slants have you seen in two complete games? Not many. Why? Because Smith is not a QB who can throw timing passes without telegraphing his throw. He's not a WCO QB. This offense requires quick passes not just to RBs but over the middle. Smith rarely every threw to the middle of the field where Dallas is at its weakest - LBs covering TEs. The one TD by Walker where this happened was a formation that looked like a run where both Walker and Davis were on the same side of the field, Davis draws the double-team and Walker is ISO one-on-one. Again this wasn't a pass over the middle, it was a pass to the sidelines.

I have been a Smith supporter but it's so clear to me now more than ever that he is by far the limiting factor on this team. He simply cannot reliably throw a pass over the middle - the three-step drop slant/timing pattern to his WRs that Romo was throwing all day long. We were getting pressure on Romo all game, but he just started throwing the ball faster 3 or 5 steps (mostly 3) - timing pattern to his WRs in the open spots against our zone defense. Smith is most limited when he has to play behind center. He just doesn't read the defense well or understands what's going on because that's where most of the sacks came. When under center, he didn't change his cadence and usually audibled to a running play - never a passing play.

I'm not saying Smith is responsible for this game because clearly there were key mistakes everywhere, but you cannot ask Smith ever to put the game on his shoulders and make plays. He's just not capable. He reminds me of a Trent Dilfer type QB. However teams with those types of QBs in today's NFL aren't going very far.

He is much more accurate than Dilfer. Yesterday was on the defense and offensive line. Smith threw the pick, but the line play and defensive breakdowns are what cost the game. Before this year, if the run game was shut down, the team had no chance, this year Smith has been making plays when the line has given him time. The biggest issues on this team are oline play and defensive breakdowns. Qb play has not cost us anything.

This

Originally posted by NinerGM:

You're right I'm not talking about what "cost" us the game. OL play wasn't the best but you're never going to get perfect OL play. My argument is that Smith needs a perfect situation to win a game. The defensive secondary zone scheme and confusion at times simply couldn't get it together. I completely agree, However, you have to agree Smith can't throw a slant consistently. I didn't say he was Dilfer, but like Dilfer in terms of being limited in what he can do as a QB in a given system. Smith is successful when the line blocks perfectly and he has time within a given play however, Smith is limited. He simply can't throw over the middle of the field reliably compared to Romos almost routine throw to Witten against a zone. Dallas OL was getting blown up by our 4 down rushers. The difference is that Romo regularly got the ball off so quickly - most times before the rush arrived. Timing and placement. Smith still struggles with this.

Have to disagree man, Smith is at his best throwing to the middle. The slant wasn't there most of the day. If the line could have blocked better then VD would have been able to run seam routes and crossing patterns. Smith has greatly improved his accuracy this year, thanks to Harbaugh helping with his mechanics. What looks like the problem is the new zone blocking scheme is taking longer to get right than I expected. This is also the problem with Gore, the holes open up differently in a zone blocking scheme. You are a good poster GM, not trying to knock you, just offering up my opinion for your consideration.

I'm not a big fan of Smith throwing deep as he's not very accurate on the deep throws anymore. It's interesting because he was pretty accurate on deep throws in 2006. After his injury...done. That said, we definitely need to let him throw those intermediate throws. 10-20 yard throws are something he's decent at. It has virtually the same effect on defenses as well because they have to respect the pass. Short passes are basically decent run plays. Defenses still stack the box and eventually scheme to stop those LOS passes. Like yesterday...I can't remember when exactly, but Smith rolled left to make the Harbaugh-special LOS 2 yard pass to Delanie Walker...the 49ers anticipated a heavy pass rush...INSTEAD...Ware (I think) ran left COVERING Walker..and Smith looked at that and went, "didn't expect, lol" and to be honest...that play scared me more than any other. It tells me that as the season goes along...WE HAVE TO stop that bullsht. Teams will catch on. Try that cute stuff against the Eagles or Steelers and we're absolutely done.