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Originally posted by TonyStarks:
CK is pretty accurate and looks like a qb.
With Alex, you know you're going to get at least 1 to 2 INT's a game.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Where is my bias? He isnt at the bottom of the barrel? Every QB rating and ranking list you see has him at 25 and below. If I am being biased, why dont you correct me and tell me what teams would love to have Smith starting over the QB that they currently have? Im curious to see what you think. Because I can list Buffalo, Cincinnati, Washington and thats where I get stuck.
Like I said earlier, maybe Harbaugh can develop ALex and turn him into a good QB....maybe not. But he hasnt proven anything.
Uh, no, he hasn't been 25 or below, even though most QB's would have been if they had to deal with what he's had to coaching wise. In fact, in '09, he had a higher rating than Matt Ryan, Matt Cassel, and Jay Cutler.
Again, it's a dare to anyone to name 5 QB's that were CLEARLY better than Smith over the past year or two other than the following 13 guys: both Mannings, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Flacco, Roethlisberger, Schaub, Cassel (even though he had a lower '09 rating), Rivers, Vick, Ryan (even though he had a lower '09 rating), and Freeman...any takers??
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
The following guys are/were clearly better then smith the last year or two:
David Gerrard, Kyle Orton, Jay Cutler Carson Palmer, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Bret Favre (Last year), Tony Romo, Kurt Warner (Last Year), DNabb (Last year) Jason Cambell,
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Where is my bias? He isnt at the bottom of the barrel? Every QB rating and ranking list you see has him at 25 and below. If I am being biased, why dont you correct me and tell me what teams would love to have Smith starting over the QB that they currently have? Im curious to see what you think. Because I can list Buffalo, Cincinnati, Washington and thats where I get stuck.
Like I said earlier, maybe Harbaugh can develop ALex and turn him into a good QB....maybe not. But he hasnt proven anything.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Why consider coaching? We are talking about our QB situation. Throwing in who has better coaches is other opinionated factor that will complicate things. If you need that factor to determine who has better QBs go for it. I'll leave it out as is relates to this discussion.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
The following guys are/were clearly better then smith the last year or two:
David Gerrard, Kyle Orton, Jay Cutler Carson Palmer, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Bret Favre (Last year), Tony Romo, Kurt Warner (Last Year), DNabb (Last year) Jason Cambell,
LOL...if they CLEARLY are ATROCIOUS right NOW (McNabb) or are not even in the league anymore (Palmer, Favre, Warner), it doesn't count. This is to determine who you'd CURRENTLY take over him...Cutler is definitely understandable- he quarterbacked the team to the NFC championship game (though he was clearly worse in '09, so saying he was CLEARLY better over the last 2 years is still a bit shaky). Orton and Romo- I see where you're coming from but given how bad their teams were with them behind center makes it rough to say they are CLEARLY ahead of him right at the moment. Garrard- I consider it a significant indictment when they draft a guy 10th overall to replace him...also the fact that he's had the same OC for going on 5 years now and Smith did what he did with the worst offensive coaching in football,has to give the edge to Smith. ...Fitzpatrick, and Campbell- no way. So EVEN IF I give you Cutler, Romo, and Orton- all of which were playing for QB gurus (Martz, Garrett, McDaniels) as opposed to constantly changing OC's including JIMMY RAYE since '09, that makes 16. And again, that's with me giving you the benefit of the doubt on 3 (i.e., if Smith were playing for Jason Garrett and throwing to all those targets, and Romo were playing for Raye, it would for sure be a different story). So the ABSOLUTE maximum amount of guys worth taking before Smith is 16.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Why consider coaching? We are talking about our QB situation. Throwing in who has better coaches is other opinionated factor that will complicate things. If you need that factor to determine who has better QBs go for it. I'll leave it out as is relates to this discussion.
Haha, yes... let's not consider coaching, OLs, or any other offensive factors when judging QBs performances. That would be just so complicated... and incidentally, not productive for your particular argument.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
I'm going on past productivitiy. Theres nothing wrong with that. If you want to include Alexcuses in your analysis go for it. But then you have to do the same coaching/Ol/WR for all the other QBs that you think are worse then Smith. Those on Oak, Buff, Cincy, etc....
It gets too messy that way. Alex Smith and the 49ers are not the only teams in this league with the coaching, OL, and WR issues you claim to hold Smith back.
Get back to me with analysis on those other teams.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
I'm going on past productivitiy. Theres nothing wrong with that. If you want to include Alexcuses in your analysis go for it. But then you have to do the same coaching/Ol/WR for all the other QBs that you think are worse then Smith. Those on Oak, Buff, Cincy, etc....
It gets too messy that way. Alex Smith and the 49ers are not the only teams in this league with the coaching, OL, and WR issues you claim to hold Smith back.
Get back to me with analysis on those other teams.
No QB on Oak, Buff, Cincy, etc. has been dealt a worse coaching hand than Smith and you know it. It's not even close. 7 OC's in 7 years + Jimmy Raye since '09. No other QB in the league can even COMPETE with that sort of bad luck and he STILL is at the VERY worst the 17th best QB. Meaning if he had better coaching/stability like all the dudes above him, he would easily be significantly higher.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
You can claim he "would have been better." but that's just a theory. We'll never know. The other QBs mentioned "would ahve been better" also if they had better coaches, OL, and WRs. These are all subjective arguments.
Also, those QB's have had adversity like Fitzpatrick, Cambell and Palmer. Playing for Cinci, Buffalo, and Oakland is a handicap in itself. Palmer was surrounded by thugs and a s**tty owner. Cambell was also mistreated in Washington and Oakland, who drafted Pryor now to make it even more stressfull for Cambell. Fitzpatrick was surrounded by s**tty talent.
Finally, Alex Smith is injury prone so that has to be a factor in assessing QB play.
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
You can claim he "would have been better." but that's just a theory. We'll never know. The other QBs mentioned "would ahve been better" also if they had better coaches, OL, and WRs. These are all subjective arguments.
Also, those QB's have had adversity like Fitzpatrick, Cambell and Palmer. Playing for Cinci, Buffalo, and Oakland is a handicap in itself. Palmer was surrounded by thugs and a s**tty owner. Cambell was also mistreated in Washington and Oakland, who drafted Pryor now to make it even more stressfull for Cambell. Fitzpatrick was surrounded by s**tty talent.
Finally, Alex Smith is injury prone so that has to be a factor in assessing QB play.
He hasn't missed a game due to injury since that whole shoulder ordeal a few years ago. But even if he had, being injury prone may affect your value to the team, but it doesn't really affect your ability to play the position. For example, Frank Gore has missed games due to injury each of the last 4 years, but that's not an indictment on his sheer abilities as a RB. Also, yes, there are issues in Cincy, Buffalo, etc. But those are NORMAL issues that tons of guys deal with, including A. Smith. Several years (if not every year) Smith has had poor pass protection just like them, oftentimes a dearth of adequate targets (esp. his first few years), etc. But the difference is that no quarterback in the league (and probably ever) has had to deal with what he has in terms of not just a CONSTANT coaching carousel, but also one that included JIMMY RAYE since '09 (who, as one poster put it, used a playbook devised by Fred Flinstone). That makes a HUGE difference. Look at Peyton Manning- he had the same OC for the first 13 years of his career and because of that, he's now essentially an OC himself. Going 6 years with no offensive minded head coach AND a different OC in each year (bottoming out with Raye) is something that separates his situation from anything that any QB from Cincy, Buffalo, etc. can say. Maybe Palmer (even though for most of his career he was throwing to 2 of the 10-15 best wideouts of this generation) and those guys have had it bad, but Smith is on his own stratosphere JUST from the coaching situation alone, let alone ALSO when you factor in the pass pro, targets, etc. So given those circumstances, being AT WORST the 17th best QB is more than understandable/adequate.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Understandably, I stopped reading after that first sentence. Smith was hurt in the Carolina game last year....
DaveRazzano (Twitter)
Same thing happens every year re: Alex Smith. Looks great in practice then the game starts. I want the guy who leads in the 4th quarter. That's Tebow.
