There are 117 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

How good is the 49ers Defense?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by SF4EVA:
Originally posted by genus49:
Originally posted by SFL49ER:
Slice it howeveryou want but this defense is going to take a major hit with Manny Lawson not returning. The worst decision from the front office in 5 years in regards to 'letting players walk'. I love the front office moves whensigning outside free agents, but damn we resigned the wrong f**king OLB.

SAY GOODBYE to the run defense that compared to the Ravens, because Willis can't do it all himself. Because Aldon might not be ready yet in run support.

I am disgusted York and Baalke didnt see how big Lawson was to our defensive accomplishments

First of all...free agency hasn't started yet so we don't know whether they will let him walk or not.

Second I'm sure they'd like to keep him but he'll probably want a lot more money than he's worth to THIS team. I love Manny and will always support him as long as he's not facing the 49ers but as a 3-4 OLB he has been a disappointment as a pass rusher which is crutial to this team. If he asks for too much money they'll have to let him go.

I dont think he will ever be the # 1 rusher no matter what 3-4 or 4-3 he needs that Mario williams type to set him free.I would like to keep him and put him on the other side and let Aldon have that spot. He may not be htat next Great Pass rusher but he can do everthing else damn good. Letting Manny and Franklin go i think would be a huge mistake. Players wanting to test the market is a good thing cuz normally the find oout the truth about thier value. I hope he has the chance to see the expectations of the d before jumping ship to the highest bidder.

I'm going to be so pisssed if he goes to another team and tears it up...

Tear it up how? I could see him turning into a tackling machine for a 4-3 defense, but I don't see him becoming a sack master for any 3-4 team, unless they already have a beast on the other side, and the scheme allows him to come free. He just hasn't shown the ability to win in one-on-one pass rush situations.

Good point! I kind of thought the same thing after I posted. I guess if he goes to another team that does really well, he will probably get the recogintion he deserves which is ultimately Manny being Manny. I could see him becoming a double diget sack guy though. Manny is in the backfield alot, but he just doesn't get the sack. If he had someone pushing the QB to his side I think he is a 10 plus sack guy. Too often teams double team JSmith and there is no pressure from the other side to sandwich the qb. Too bad, I really would like to see him paired with Aldon Smith...

Yeah, I def prefer him to Parys, but most of the time I see Manny pressuring the QB, he is beating an RB or TE.

I'd prefer Manny in a Nolan/Manusky 3-4, 4-3 or even Cover 2 but in Fangio's defense, the focus will be on the pass rush in route to stopping the run. If/when Manny chooses to leave (perhaps, prompted by the FO not offering him a contract or of Manny's own choosing), the pass rushers left on this team who will take center-focus will be: Aldon Smith, Brooks, Haralson (maybe LaBoy) and newcomers such as Gibson, Miller or other UDFA's with potential. The goal will be to develop two of these guys into FT starters.

Aldon Smith (WILL) - I think this guy will start right out of the gate but share time with Brooks/Haralson to keep him fresh while he grows into a FT starter.
LaBoy - is a guy who used to be a starter in a like-defensive scheme and I'm guessing he will be rsigned
Brooks - should get every opportunity to become a FT starter and no longer a predictable 3rd down pass rushing specialist at SAM
Haralson (either as a starter or rotating pass rusher where he shined the most) - not high on BUT he could be more than serviceable in a better scheme and effective pass rush from the rest of the front 6. He is proven off the bench at least not to mention he's signed long term so he isn't going anywhere (his contract may even help reach the "floor.")

Both the SAM/WILL will be interchangeable in Fangio's scheme.

While Aldon is an unknown, I do see plenty of upside in Brooks, LaBoy and even Thaddeus Gibson as good "fits" in Fangio's system (no more square pegs/round hole-players). Brooks has the most complete package right now, no doubt and Aldon may have the most upside. LaBoy is a very good pass rusher but is suspect against the run and that may be his downfall. Gibson has a load of potential and we'll see who else Fangio picks up in the UDFA class or who else is currently on the roster (e.g. Bruce Miller?).

It's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out, no doubt!

I am interested in seeing how Gibson does in camp, and what kind of shape Brroks is in when he shows up. I think Haralson is terrible as a passrusher, as his 8 sack year was littered with coverage sacks or situations where another defender flushed the QB directly into him. If he was any good, he would get monster numbers, because he plays next to Justin Smith, who collapses that side of the line. On top of that, he has been terrible at setting the edge against the run. Rewatch the games and see how many times he gets caught ducking inside, instead of setting a proper edge. It's depressing.
Right now they are average... but we are young and do have talent so we could eventually be top 10
  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 27,061
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
Right now they are average... but we are young and do have talent so we could eventually be top 10

AVERAGE AVERAGE OH NOES YOU DIDNT! PARYS HARALSON IS DA BEAST! TAYLOR MAYS B*****S! DASHON GOLDSONZ WILL BREAKOUT AND HAVE 29 INTERCEPTIONZ THIS YEAR!





damn I can't wait till the season starts to answer that question for sure. I am optimistic and hav emostly felt that the defense was the strength of the team the past few years.

To me it was the offeise that kept letting the team down by nos sustaining drives and putting the defense in precarious situations.

Go Niners!!
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
Right now they are average... but we are young and do have talent so we could eventually be top 10

AVERAGE AVERAGE OH NOES YOU DIDNT! PARYS HARALSON IS DA BEAST! TAYLOR MAYS B*****S! DASHON GOLDSONZ WILL BREAKOUT AND HAVE 29 INTERCEPTIONZ THIS YEAR!







Someone will say this and mean it ...ninertalk
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
I am interested in seeing how Gibson does in camp, and what kind of shape Brroks is in when he shows up. I think Haralson is terrible as a passrusher, as his 8 sack year was littered with coverage sacks or situations where another defender flushed the QB directly into him. If he was any good, he would get monster numbers, because he plays next to Justin Smith, who collapses that side of the line. On top of that, he has been terrible at setting the edge against the run. Rewatch the games and see how many times he gets caught ducking inside, instead of setting a proper edge. It's depressing.

Hey, if Pittsburgh liked him (4th rounder in 2010), I too am curious to see how he develops here under Fangio. He would be one of those guys who lost out d/t numbers in Steeler-country as opposed to a poor fit or lack of talent. I watched some YouTube highlights of him: great angles, big, strong, big time motor, pressure that lead to TO's, dropped back in zone and made INT's, seals the edge very well, can play inside too and ver good play recognition. He is as quick as he is fast; gets in the backfield instantly via bull (power) and an array of hand/arm-work. This kid has some talent and I could easily see why Pittsburgh liked him...about as protypical a Steeler OLB as they come.
Originally posted by ttime:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Hitman49:
We have the talent to be a top 5 def. ummm.........15 years ago.....in todays NFL it is a pass first league....and we have no pass rush and a slow secondary....

You are dead on...I feel our "stellar defense against the run" is a little over-inflated. Franklin is a one-gap NT and we are terrible in short yardage plays and if a team is inside our 10, you can almost guarantee a running TD every time.

If I was the opposition, the last thing I'd want is Willis in the box and in my backfield making plays. It's a no-brainer...you go pass the majority of the time and get Willis and the other LBers in coverage and with our prdeictable play-calling, poor secondary, lack of in-game adjustments, zero pass rush (except in predictable sets), etc. it's even MORE of a no-brainer.

So why run? Teams such as Tennessee and Tampa Bay who DID game-plan to run on us did so VERY effectively, IMHO.

So in all, no pass rush, can't get off the field, poor secondary, no changes in 5 years = average, at best defense.

We'll soon find out who fits the new defensive scheme in 2011. By the end of 2011, we should have our work cut out for us; and THAT is a good thing!

I agree with you regarding the run defense being over rated; but I must take some opposition against your assessment of Manny. Not only is he one of the best play makers against the run that this team has, he is also one of the top LB's in league in getting pressure on the QB on pass plays. You do not build championship teams by letting talent like his walk away; particularly given that your other side is not very strong and you are bringing in a rookie who has to learn the position. That is a terrible equation.

No worries, my friend. The Manny-value topic has been pretty well hashed to death here on various other threads over time so it's cool to agree to disagree on this one; respect your opinion though!
  • KRS-1
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 27,061
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
Originally posted by KRS-1:
Originally posted by ninersrule4:
Right now they are average... but we are young and do have talent so we could eventually be top 10

AVERAGE AVERAGE OH NOES YOU DIDNT! PARYS HARALSON IS DA BEAST! TAYLOR MAYS B*****S! DASHON GOLDSONZ WILL BREAKOUT AND HAVE 29 INTERCEPTIONZ THIS YEAR!







Someone will say this and mean it ...ninertalk

QFT.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
I am interested in seeing how Gibson does in camp, and what kind of shape Brroks is in when he shows up. I think Haralson is terrible as a passrusher, as his 8 sack year was littered with coverage sacks or situations where another defender flushed the QB directly into him. If he was any good, he would get monster numbers, because he plays next to Justin Smith, who collapses that side of the line. On top of that, he has been terrible at setting the edge against the run. Rewatch the games and see how many times he gets caught ducking inside, instead of setting a proper edge. It's depressing.

Hey, if Pittsburgh liked him (4th rounder in 2010), I too am curious to see how he develops here under Fangio. He would be one of those guys who lost out d/t numbers in Steeler-country as opposed to a poor fit or lack of talent. I watched some YouTube highlights of him: great angles, big, strong, big time motor, pressure that lead to TO's, dropped back in zone and made INT's, seals the edge very well, can play inside too and ver good play recognition. He is as quick as he is fast; gets in the backfield instantly via bull (power) and an array of hand/arm-work. This kid has some talent and I could easily see why Pittsburgh liked him...about as protypical a Steeler OLB as they come.

If it's one thing PIT knows, it's pass rushing linebackers. What's crazy is that the year he came out, one of WalterFootball's mock drafts had him going to the Niners with their 1st round pick. Mind you, I don't put too much stock in Walter's though as their mock's/evaluations can be pretty off. Either way I hope this guy can live up to the potential. Might give us a pretty formidable crew with Smith, Brooks, LaBoy and Gibson, and Manny if he returns. Who cares about Harrelson, the guy is terrible. He'll pad his stats with his usual 3-5 sacks against AZ then call it a season.
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
I am interested in seeing how Gibson does in camp, and what kind of shape Brroks is in when he shows up. I think Haralson is terrible as a passrusher, as his 8 sack year was littered with coverage sacks or situations where another defender flushed the QB directly into him. If he was any good, he would get monster numbers, because he plays next to Justin Smith, who collapses that side of the line. On top of that, he has been terrible at setting the edge against the run. Rewatch the games and see how many times he gets caught ducking inside, instead of setting a proper edge. It's depressing.

Hey, if Pittsburgh liked him (4th rounder in 2010), I too am curious to see how he develops here under Fangio. He would be one of those guys who lost out d/t numbers in Steeler-country as opposed to a poor fit or lack of talent. I watched some YouTube highlights of him: great angles, big, strong, big time motor, pressure that lead to TO's, dropped back in zone and made INT's, seals the edge very well, can play inside too and ver good play recognition. He is as quick as he is fast; gets in the backfield instantly via bull (power) and an array of hand/arm-work. This kid has some talent and I could easily see why Pittsburgh liked him...about as protypical a Steeler OLB as they come.

If it's one thing PIT knows, it's pass rushing linebackers. What's crazy is that the year he came out, one of WalterFootball's mock drafts had him going to the Niners with their 1st round pick. Mind you, I don't put too much stock in Walter's though as their mock's/evaluations can be pretty off. Either way I hope this guy can live up to the potential. Might give us a pretty formidable crew with Smith, Brooks, LaBoy and Gibson, and Manny if he returns. Who cares about Harrelson, the guy is terrible. He'll pad his stats with his usual 3-5 sacks against AZ then call it a season.

LOL re: Haralson. I certainly don't mean to sound like I'm supporting him or his play - just stating what we do know about him; that he enjoyed success coming off the bench and that was under a vanilla/predictable 3-4 under Nolan/Manusky. Sooo, if he becomes an occasionally role, pass rusher again off the bench, I'll take 3-5 sacks which s typically more than a full season's worth of sacks from our starting OLB's over the past five years!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WRATHman44:
I am interested in seeing how Gibson does in camp, and what kind of shape Brroks is in when he shows up. I think Haralson is terrible as a passrusher, as his 8 sack year was littered with coverage sacks or situations where another defender flushed the QB directly into him. If he was any good, he would get monster numbers, because he plays next to Justin Smith, who collapses that side of the line. On top of that, he has been terrible at setting the edge against the run. Rewatch the games and see how many times he gets caught ducking inside, instead of setting a proper edge. It's depressing.

Hey, if Pittsburgh liked him (4th rounder in 2010), I too am curious to see how he develops here under Fangio. He would be one of those guys who lost out d/t numbers in Steeler-country as opposed to a poor fit or lack of talent. I watched some YouTube highlights of him: great angles, big, strong, big time motor, pressure that lead to TO's, dropped back in zone and made INT's, seals the edge very well, can play inside too and ver good play recognition. He is as quick as he is fast; gets in the backfield instantly via bull (power) and an array of hand/arm-work. This kid has some talent and I could easily see why Pittsburgh liked him...about as protypical a Steeler OLB as they come.

If it's one thing PIT knows, it's pass rushing linebackers. What's crazy is that the year he came out, one of WalterFootball's mock drafts had him going to the Niners with their 1st round pick. Mind you, I don't put too much stock in Walter's though as their mock's/evaluations can be pretty off. Either way I hope this guy can live up to the potential. Might give us a pretty formidable crew with Smith, Brooks, LaBoy and Gibson, and Manny if he returns. Who cares about Harrelson, the guy is terrible. He'll pad his stats with his usual 3-5 sacks against AZ then call it a season.

LOL re: Haralson. I certainly don't mean to sound like I'm supporting him or his play - just stating what we do know about him; that he enjoyed success coming off the bench and that was under a vanilla/predictable 3-4 under Nolan/Manusky. Sooo, if he becomes an occasionally role, pass rusher again off the bench, I'll take 3-5 sacks which s typically more than a full season's worth of sacks from our starting OLB's over the past five years!

No, I totally understand. I've just had it out for him ever since his 8 sack season which earned him that extension. Since then, nothing. Maybe Fangio and a new defensive philosophy will revitalize him
Let's make this simple: About as good as our record has shown the last 8 years.
Originally posted by Hoovtrain:
No, I totally understand. I've just had it out for him ever since his 8 sack season which earned him that extension. Since then, nothing. Maybe Fangio and a new defensive philosophy will revitalize him

And THAT is totally understandable. I can't wait to see how this all shapes up!

One thing is for certain...no more free rides/passes. Guys are going to have to earn their starting positions!
Everyone is missing the point here. Without an offense the 49ers finished the 13th ranked defense. My stance is that if the Niners get a consisten flow on offense then our defense will benefit the most. We could have easily been a top 10 defense last year will just a little bit of help on offense.

Can we improve? of course.
Are we above avg on defense? I think so.

Above avg = Good?
Originally posted by PiratePete:
Everyone is missing the point here. Without an offense the 49ers finished the 13th ranked defense. My stance is that if the Niners get a consisten flow on offense then our defense will benefit the most. We could have easily been a top 10 defense last year will just a little bit of help on offense.

Can we improve? of course.
Are we above avg on defense? I think so.

Above avg = Good?

Your point is valid but the 13th ranking is very misleading b/c it’s based on total yards (only). We were a defense that could NOT get off the field on 3rd downs and consequently, bled to death slowly. Manusky’s “keep everything in front of you” defense meant CB’s were playing far off, LBers were in coverage, there was no pass rush, zero TO’s and really, in the end, we still lost…just slowly b/c the offense took what we gave them and that was small/medium chunks at a time not giving up a lot of “yards” per se.

Keep in mind too that the reverse is also true. If this “veteran” defense could carry the team or get off the field, the offense would have had many more chances to get into a rhythm and perhaps, develop chemistry and sustain drives. You can win a Superbowl with one super dominant unit (Colts or Ravens) but the other unit better be able to hold their own and right now, we can’t say that about either unit.