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Patrick Willis #23 on NFL countdown

i woud put him in top 20, so i guess 23 isnt that bad
Originally posted by Janitor:
Originally posted by FreddyG:
Originally posted by PTulini:
Originally posted by Janitor:
Old thread had to be deleted. Continue discussion in this thread.

Why? What happened now?

meh nothing much

Some dude who has no life and nothing better to do than keep making screen names and spamming hate though the zone ruined it. So pathetic it almost makes me feel sorry for him.

I thought it looked for an IP address to prevent this sort of problem from happening?
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

[ Edited by Oakland-Niner on Jun 21, 2011 at 15:59:35 ]
I could have sworn I said something about feeding trolls...
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I completely agree. Lofa Tatupu is a more fiery competitor than Willis and leads his team better, so I'm gonna say Tatupu>Willis, just to not be a homer.

Talent means nothing.
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!
Originally posted by Janitor:
I could have sworn I said something about feeding trolls...

Park Rangers have trouble with people feeding bears too. You should use pictures with large letters. I hear that works pretty well
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by LeadershipYes:
Originally posted by cwilson830:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

How dare you question the wisdom of Oakland-Niner... (que flames and smoke)

I'm not really sure how I would prove my point, like I said, it's my opinion. There are many things that have contributed to 8 sub par seasons, Willis is one of the only bright spots. However, I think this team has lacked true team leaders in this lost decade. To be an elite leader, you need elite play, coupled with player respect and an ability to motivate. It's not always about what happens on the field, its also the role they play in other players life Monday thru Saturday (in the wieght room,film room and general life).

Sing tried to get both Willis and Davis to take that role, they tried, but it doesnt seem very natural.

As far as Willis vs Lewis this year, I would be curious to see Willy's stats against teams with winning records. Personally, I believe Willis has benefited from being in a very weak division.
I dont know fellas, I just went and looked at Ray's stats vs. Willis. They look very similar. Willis has 6 sacks, Ray has 2. Willis has 0 interceptions, Ray has 2. Both have 101/2 solo tackles. Not a huge diffrence, IMO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=TACKLES&conference=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I dont know fellas, I just went and looked at Ray's stats vs. Willis. They look very similar. Willis has 6 sacks, Ray has 2. Willis has 0 interceptions, Ray has 2. Both have 101/2 solo tackles. Not a huge diffrence, IMO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=TACKLES&conference=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG

winning team and better divison. Willis might put up a little bit better stats but the little stats dont balance out how much more of a leader lewis is.
Originally posted by FreddyG:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I dont know fellas, I just went and looked at Ray's stats vs. Willis. They look very similar. Willis has 6 sacks, Ray has 2. Willis has 0 interceptions, Ray has 2. Both have 101/2 solo tackles. Not a huge diffrence, IMO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=TACKLES&conference=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG

winning team and better divison. Willis might put up a little bit better stats but the little stats dont balance out how much more of a leader lewis is.

I like this guy....
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by FreddyG:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I dont know fellas, I just went and looked at Ray's stats vs. Willis. They look very similar. Willis has 6 sacks, Ray has 2. Willis has 0 interceptions, Ray has 2. Both have 101/2 solo tackles. Not a huge diffrence, IMO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=TACKLES&conference=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG

winning team and better divison. Willis might put up a little bit better stats but the little stats dont balance out how much more of a leader lewis is.

I like this guy....

sometimes us fans, on here, can become blind to the facts because its our favorite team
Originally posted by FreddyG:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by FreddyG:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I dont know fellas, I just went and looked at Ray's stats vs. Willis. They look very similar. Willis has 6 sacks, Ray has 2. Willis has 0 interceptions, Ray has 2. Both have 101/2 solo tackles. Not a huge diffrence, IMO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=TACKLES&conference=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG

winning team and better divison. Willis might put up a little bit better stats but the little stats dont balance out how much more of a leader lewis is.

I like this guy....

sometimes us fans, on here, can become blind to the facts because its our favorite team

hha you can say that again.
Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Originally posted by FreddyG:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by FreddyG:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I dont know fellas, I just went and looked at Ray's stats vs. Willis. They look very similar. Willis has 6 sacks, Ray has 2. Willis has 0 interceptions, Ray has 2. Both have 101/2 solo tackles. Not a huge diffrence, IMO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=TACKLES&conference=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG

winning team and better divison. Willis might put up a little bit better stats but the little stats dont balance out how much more of a leader lewis is.

I like this guy....

sometimes us fans, on here, can become blind to the facts because its our favorite team

hha you can say that again.

plus i think willis kinda b***hed up when he didnt keep the headset in his helmet. goldson seemed to play better when he didnt have to run the defense too.