Patrick Willis #23 on NFL countdown

Originally posted by FreddyG:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by FreddyG:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
I dont know fellas, I just went and looked at Ray's stats vs. Willis. They look very similar. Willis has 6 sacks, Ray has 2. Willis has 0 interceptions, Ray has 2. Both have 101/2 solo tackles. Not a huge diffrence, IMO.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=TACKLES&conference=null&season=2010&seasonType=REG

winning team and better divison. Willis might put up a little bit better stats but the little stats dont balance out how much more of a leader lewis is.

I like this guy....

sometimes us fans, on here, can become blind to the facts because its our favorite team

I guess my problem with measuring the impact of leadership is that I have no way of actually knowing how much of an impact Willis or Lewis have on their teams. I'm not in the locker rooms and I take what I see in the media with a grain of salt. I'm not blinded by my love for the Niners. I simply look at the games I've seen both of them play and access that.

I think Willis and Lewis between the tackles are about the same level of play, while Lewis can't cover sideline to sideline the way he used to. Willis is doing things Lewis used to do on the football field. Willis might be in a worse division, but playing with better surrounding cast (and coaching) I would imagine has helped Lewis to some degree. (Unless you think Takeo Spikes and the rest of the front seven (and coaching staff) are up to par with the Terrell Suggs and the Ravens).

I don't claim to know what goes on in the locker rooms throughout the NFL and I can only judge what I see. It's my opinion and you and Oakland-Niner have yours, so don't assume I'm just being a homer.

I'll say this again, I think we are really splitting hairs because the difference between the two players and most of the guys in the top 25 is really just not much. I see no reason to get too excited about it.

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by LeadershipYes:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

[ Edited by Oakland-Niner on Jun 21, 2011 at 19:58:58 ]

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by LeadershipYes:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

[ Edited by andes14 on Jun 21, 2011 at 20:10:17 ]

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by LeadershipYes:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

I said this in my last post which was not addressed to you:

I think Willis and Lewis between the tackles are about the same level of play, while Lewis can't cover sideline to sideline the way he used to. Willis is doing things Lewis used to do on the football field. Willis might be in a worse division, but playing with better surrounding cast (and coaching) I would imagine has helped Lewis to some degree. (Unless you think Takeo Spikes and the rest of the front seven (and coaching staff) are up to par with the Terrell Suggs and the Ravens).

It's really just an opinion and no offense, but I don't take stats to mean nearly as much in football as say baseball, where stats are better isolated. I just think Ray Lewis has slowed down a bit and can't cover the field quite like he used to. That's really all I'm saying.

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by LeadershipYes:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

It's really just an opinion and no offense, but I don't take stats to mean nearly as much in football as say baseball, where stats are better isolated.

Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

[ Edited by andes14 on Jun 22, 2011 at 00:26:44 ]

Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Easily Chad Johnson at this point. No mystery there.

Originally posted by 49erFaithful6:

Originally posted by andes14:
Holy s**t, one of the following guys was not considered one of the top-100 players:

Fitzgerald
Rodgers
Woodson
Matthews
Peterson
Hutchinson
Peppers
Brees
Freeney
Vick
Ware
Asomugha
Lewis
Reed
Ngata
Polamalu
C. Johnson
Manning
A. Johnson
Brady
Revis



Which one could it be???

Easily Chad Johnson at this point. No mystery there.

Lol, that's Chris Johnson (though Chad should have probably made it at some lower #, if freakin Brandon Lloyd, Marques Colston, Miles Austin, etc. did). I originally thought maybe Freeney, but if the Robin of their d-line (Mathis) made it, how could their Batman not? Either way, one of the guys above will not make the top HUNDRED players list and it will be SHOCKING. I would say maybe Vick could make some sense, but they already announced there's gonna be 5 more QB's. Maybe Peppers? But I mean how can arguably the best player on a team that won its division and hosted the NFC championship game not be considered on of the 100 best players in the league?

[ Edited by andes14 on Jun 22, 2011 at 00:51:55 ]

i want a recount!!!!!!

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by LeadershipYes:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Willis has never been a murder suspect. Also, the key word in your post is WAS, Lewis is quite a bit slower these days. If we were building defenses, I would let you have Lewis every time if that left me Willis. Better speed, better character, better numbers with less of a supporting cast. It is just splitting hairs though, and not really worth fighting amongst the brethren about.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by LeadershipYes:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

And do you think if Lewis were on the niners the last 4 yrs instead of Willis, that would be different?

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by LeadershipYes:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Willis has never been a murder suspect. Also, the key word in your post is WAS, Lewis is quite a bit slower these days. If we were building defenses, I would let you have Lewis every time if that left me Willis. Better speed, better character, better numbers with less of a supporting cast. It is just splitting hairs though, and not really worth fighting amongst the brethren about.

Low blow. He didn't stab anyone, it was his buddy. I dont expect you to understand how something like that can go down, but it can happen to anybody that's from the streets. Since then, he learned his leason and now works very close with the Bmore Police department.

P.S. There are many ways to look at someones numbers. Maybe Lewis would have more tackles on the Niners because everyone around him sucks and he has to put in more work? Maybe Willis' stats fall off because he doesn't have has many opporutnities because he's surrounded by better players? The knife cuts both ways.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by LeadershipYes:

Originally posted by cwilson830:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:

Originally posted by andes14:

Originally posted by elhebrewhammer:
In regards to this thread. Like I said previously...I think a lot of people are being major homers complaining and making it seem like some major insult to have Patrick Willis at #23. The difference between 23 and some in 10-15 really is not that much when you are dealing with the top 100 players in the entire NFL. 23 still represents the top 2% of the league.

Some guys were even saying that he should be top 5 and maybe number one. That's just blind stupid homerism.

I could easily justify his being top-5. Other than Brady, Manning, and then I'll give you Brees and Rodgers, there's no one else that is unquestionably better.

Again, I think we are splitting hairs here. I see guys like Calvin Johnson, Damarcus Ware, Larry Fitzgerald, Darrelle Revis, Nmandi Ashohowdoyouspellit, Andre Johnson, Chris Johnson, the QBs you mentioned and don't forget about Phillip Rivers, maybe (but a think a bit of stretch) Big Ben, Jake Long (I know I'm missing some lineman alos) and can't possibly without a doubt say they are better than or worse than him.

I'm sure their are others i'm not thinking about off the top of my head. I do think he's better than Ray Lewis right now, but the track record is there for Lewis, so the players went with him.

Honestly, I just think its funny people were saying they refuse to watch because they ranked him at #23. Really?!?! People are that upset and insulted. It's homerism plain and simple. He's one of the best players in the game and 23 compared to 15 or 10 for that matter when you're talknig about 1700 players, is just nothing to get excited about.

To your point, we are just splitting hairs. With the exception of QB I think you can make a case for Willis being equal to almost all other players at any other position. It really just depends on what you value more. Is Ware really that much more valuable than Willis? I dont know. Ware had 15 sacks last season, Willis had 6. However, 99 percent of the time Ware is moving forward. I could see Willis as a 10 sack guy while keeping his other stats if he was in the right system. Personally, I would take Willis over any CB as CBs can be isolated a lot easier than a MLB. Again, just my opinion.

P.S. On a one year basis I would take Lewis over Willis. Personally, I put a very high premium on leadership (And I dont mean that "silent leader" crap.)

I watch a lot of Ravens games, and Lewis isn't a pro-bowl caliber player any more. He still has his fair share of Sportscenter highlight hits, but he's becoming a liability in a lot of aspects of the ILB game. Yeah, Lewis is still the heart of that D, but I'd take Willis over him without thinking twice.

That may be true, but talent doesn't really mean anything. It's all about leadership and yelling at the top of your lungs, because that obviously makes you play better. Ray Lewis yelling before games is what made Terrell Suggs, ed reed, Haloti Ngata, etc... into great players. Willis has yet to do this with Manny Lawson, Aubrayo Franklin, and Dashon Goldson.

Lewis>Willis, yo

Take that "yo" and shove it up your pie hole. If you don’t think words can inspire people to go above and beyond what they thought capable, you are as stupid as your troll posts. Words are the most powerful weapon known to man. Hitler doesn't almost conquer the world without them. The ability to pair words and reframe the way someone thinks can change the face of a nation. In the case of football, its all about team morale. And no shouting has nothing to do with it, its all about content.

Go peddle your BS somewhere else, moron.

I'll try and be nice and disagree with you.

I don't think you are right, but mostly because I don't think Ray Lewis's leadership skills make up for his diminished play and Patrick Willis's increased play. I've said it before that PW IMO belongs in 15-20 and Ray Lewis probably belongs at 23.

I get your point about leadership and all, but I don't it works this time. We can agree to disagree on this.

Please don't yell at me, I'm not a troll!

Based on the stats I posted I dont see the huge drop off? Ray's "diminished play" in his 15th year is about equal to P.Willys in his near prime. Again, I'm not talking about taking Ray over Willis for the next five years. I'm just talking about this season. Its hard to say what the result would be if the two swapped teams.

Patrick Willis hasn't even hit his prime yet, he's barely scratched the surface of what he can do, and yet he STILL in a lot of ways has posted superior #'s than Lewis. Lewis has only had one season with more tackles than Willis' best tackle season. Lewis has never had 6 sacks in a season, Willis has. Lewis has never forced 3 fumbles in a season, Willis has. Lewis only has scored one more TD in his career despite having played 11 more years. All this despite the fact that Willis has had much poorer supporting casts throughout his career meaning offenses can focus solely on him and he STILL does what he does. Lewis has played with guys like Ngata, Suggs, Boulware, McCrary, Adams, Woodson, McAlister, Reed, etc. each of which have made a multitude of pro-bowls and some of which are Canton-bound. Imagine if Willis played with all those guys as opposed to having 2-3 guys on offense each play whose sole responsibility is to TRY and neutralize him...I mean if he could run around super freely without a care in the world like Lewis was able to do for instance when they won the super bowl with Siragusa and Adams' 700 lbs making it impossible for o-linemen to touch him, well, MY GOD...

I appreciate the spunk, but stats be dam. Lewis was the best player on one of the best defenses in history. Willis hasn't even been on a team with a winning season or beat many teams with a winning record for that matter.

/thread.

Willis has never been a murder suspect. Also, the key word in your post is WAS, Lewis is quite a bit slower these days. If we were building defenses, I would let you have Lewis every time if that left me Willis. Better speed, better character, better numbers with less of a supporting cast. It is just splitting hairs though, and not really worth fighting amongst the brethren about.

Low blow. He didn't stab anyone, it was his buddy. I dont expect you to understand how something like that can go down, but it can happen to anybody that's from the streets. Since then, he learned his leason and now works very close with the Bmore Police department.

P.S. There are many ways to look at someones numbers. Maybe Lewis would have more tackles on the Niners because everyone around him sucks and he has to put in more work? Maybe Willis' stats fall off because he doesn't have has many opporutnities because he's surrounded by better players? The knife cuts both ways.

Ya, playing behind Adams and Siragusa and never having to even sniff an o-lineman must have been a real burden for him.

23 my ACE!!! thats not fair to judge him because alot of his supporting cast sucks! willis gives 100% every week, and is the best defender in the league period!!!