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What about Vernon at the player-run practices??

Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You guys who think Vernon Davis or Crabtree have some obligation to be at an offseason Alex Smith-ran throwing session are grabbing at straws. The owners locked the players out. They are not getting paid, they do not have insurance. They have no reason to be there other than to satisfy the fans and media. None of our players know the offense, so practicing together is not going to be very productive is it?

Also, I would like all of you who point to Alex Smith's QB "rating" when throwing to VD actually take a look at what QB rating is supposed to represent. Isolating 1 player and finding an efficiency rating is telling you absolutely nothing. You will find that there are many crappy QB's out their with a good rating if you isolate the passes thrown to their back or tight end.

Umm wouldn't a "single player efficiency rating" tell you how effective a QB is when throwing to that player... by definition. It also tells you allot. Great coaches are statistical geniuses when it comes to football. A statistical rating that points to the receiver a QB has the greatest success throwing to is taken into account by every coaching staff. They will even break it down more and find out which receiver the QB is succesful with based on down & distance.

And unless Crabs is running hills with Rice and we for some crazy reason haven't heard about it... there is no excuse for him to be in the bay and not make an appearance at these practices. He doesn't have to be at all of them, but he has been to NONE of them.

Actually he does have an excuse to not be there. His employer is locking him out. Not paying him and not paying his insurance

But but but that shouldn't matter. He should be out there catching balls from Alex to appease the fans and the media. I mean, if he gets injured at least he'll know that he gave it is all and people on a messageboard respect him.

This whole thing is stupid. Get mad when a player doesn't show up to a mandated practice with ACTUAL COACHES!

You and Alex seem to agree on this. He wondered to reporters how much the big practices were for PR. He saw no reason to get everyone together until they understood the playbook better. The offense is ahead of the D because they have the playbook. That being said, smart QBs and WRs try to build rapport whenever they can; and the mistrust between Smith and Crabtree has to be reduced if they are to be an effective combination.

Effectiveness has a lot more to do with coaching then it does trust. These players are not getting much done without there coaches except staying in shape. T.O. never had good chemistry with his QBs and he always produced. New team new offense didnt matter.

TO never had good friendships with QB's (maybe like 6 months with McNabb) but he understood that he needed the chemistry. TO is actually a pretty good example, he is a loner and never really bought into the team concept. But no one ever questioned his dedication to the game and he put in the time to get the chemistry with his QB regardless of their relationship. He hates not getting the ball cause he feels that he puts in the most work, has the most talent and deserves the ball all the time, when he doesn't get it he lets the QB know. That attitude is what makes receivers successful. TO doesn't always go about it in the right way and takes it upon himself to start calling out people, which is where he has derailed his career.

Not one coach has ever questioned Crabtrees work ethic either. He obviously is not satisfied with Alex as his QB, and with these being completely voluntary workouts I think he has every right to choose to work out on his own. Lets not forget the guy still has put up better numbers in his first two seasons than Vernon Davis did and he has only played under Singletary so far.

No coach will ever question one of his players to the media, let alone in the locker room. NFL coaches get paid sh*t compared to their "stars", they learn the psychological game of getting the captains to step up and talk to their teamates. However the fact that Singletary sided with Davis in the Davis vs. Crabtree fiasco (whatever it was about) tells you where the coach really stands.

And lets get serious, you can't compare a tight-ends first two seasons of production to a wide-receivers. Hopefully the WR should always win in this comparison, otherwise the team has a big problem. If a teams leading receiver is a tight-end or even a running back... that team has receiver problems, just like the niners do. Not to mention that VD had to stay in and block all the time on passing plays because our O-line was the worst in the league.

First of all, college coaches make a lot more than their players and their own bosses, and his work ethic has been praised at each level he has played. NFL coaches will indirectly question players work ethics, they do it all the time. Especially ones like Singletary.

You don't draft a tight-end in the top 10 to be anything other than your primary pass catcher. Based on that there should be no problem comparing the first 2 seasons of their careers

A) I should of clarified, I mean good coaches so that excludes Singletary. College coaches control a players scholarship or "meal ticket", so players are forced to listen to their coaches. Where are all those coaches that made memorable soundbites like Singletary, Mora or Green? You don't see Belichick or Reid ranting or pulling their pants down at halftime. Coaches in the NFL have to earn the respect of their players, and basically play psychological warfare with them without making them lose face amongst their teamates. Coaches can't outright question players who make triple their salary, the only ones who can throw that weight around are GM coaches like Reid in philly. For example when Shanahan told Haynesworth he was gonna switch roles, the response "umm I just signed a $100m contract so you can go F yourself."

B) "You don't draft a tight-end in the top 10 to be anything other than your primary pass catcher" Really, I didn't know you were in the room when he was drafted. So what happens when you draft a WR in the top ten too? He was drafted to be a TE not a WR. Please show me the offensive scheme where your TE is your main receiver, and Ill show you an offensive coordinator who is about to get fired.
[ Edited by 5280High on Jun 2, 2011 at 2:33 PM ]
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You guys who think Vernon Davis or Crabtree have some obligation to be at an offseason Alex Smith-ran throwing session are grabbing at straws. The owners locked the players out. They are not getting paid, they do not have insurance. They have no reason to be there other than to satisfy the fans and media. None of our players know the offense, so practicing together is not going to be very productive is it?

Also, I would like all of you who point to Alex Smith's QB "rating" when throwing to VD actually take a look at what QB rating is supposed to represent. Isolating 1 player and finding an efficiency rating is telling you absolutely nothing. You will find that there are many crappy QB's out their with a good rating if you isolate the passes thrown to their back or tight end.

Umm wouldn't a "single player efficiency rating" tell you how effective a QB is when throwing to that player... by definition. It also tells you allot. Great coaches are statistical geniuses when it comes to football. A statistical rating that points to the receiver a QB has the greatest success throwing to is taken into account by every coaching staff. They will even break it down more and find out which receiver the QB is succesful with based on down & distance.

And unless Crabs is running hills with Rice and we for some crazy reason haven't heard about it... there is no excuse for him to be in the bay and not make an appearance at these practices. He doesn't have to be at all of them, but he has been to NONE of them.

Actually he does have an excuse to not be there. His employer is locking him out. Not paying him and not paying his insurance

But but but that shouldn't matter. He should be out there catching balls from Alex to appease the fans and the media. I mean, if he gets injured at least he'll know that he gave it is all and people on a messageboard respect him.

This whole thing is stupid. Get mad when a player doesn't show up to a mandated practice with ACTUAL COACHES!

You and Alex seem to agree on this. He wondered to reporters how much the big practices were for PR. He saw no reason to get everyone together until they understood the playbook better. The offense is ahead of the D because they have the playbook. That being said, smart QBs and WRs try to build rapport whenever they can; and the mistrust between Smith and Crabtree has to be reduced if they are to be an effective combination.

Effectiveness has a lot more to do with coaching then it does trust. These players are not getting much done without there coaches except staying in shape. T.O. never had good chemistry with his QBs and he always produced. New team new offense didnt matter.

No, effectiveness is dependent on trust that results from good coaching and players spending time developing a rapport. Many WR/QB combinations have not meshed because one or the other did not value practice. Montana speaks often of plays like "The Catch" that seemed incredible but had been practiced a thousand times.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You guys who think Vernon Davis or Crabtree have some obligation to be at an offseason Alex Smith-ran throwing session are grabbing at straws. The owners locked the players out. They are not getting paid, they do not have insurance. They have no reason to be there other than to satisfy the fans and media. None of our players know the offense, so practicing together is not going to be very productive is it?

Also, I would like all of you who point to Alex Smith's QB "rating" when throwing to VD actually take a look at what QB rating is supposed to represent. Isolating 1 player and finding an efficiency rating is telling you absolutely nothing. You will find that there are many crappy QB's out their with a good rating if you isolate the passes thrown to their back or tight end.

Umm wouldn't a "single player efficiency rating" tell you how effective a QB is when throwing to that player... by definition. It also tells you allot. Great coaches are statistical geniuses when it comes to football. A statistical rating that points to the receiver a QB has the greatest success throwing to is taken into account by every coaching staff. They will even break it down more and find out which receiver the QB is succesful with based on down & distance.

And unless Crabs is running hills with Rice and we for some crazy reason haven't heard about it... there is no excuse for him to be in the bay and not make an appearance at these practices. He doesn't have to be at all of them, but he has been to NONE of them.

Actually he does have an excuse to not be there. His employer is locking him out. Not paying him and not paying his insurance

But but but that shouldn't matter. He should be out there catching balls from Alex to appease the fans and the media. I mean, if he gets injured at least he'll know that he gave it is all and people on a messageboard respect him.

This whole thing is stupid. Get mad when a player doesn't show up to a mandated practice with ACTUAL COACHES!

You and Alex seem to agree on this. He wondered to reporters how much the big practices were for PR. He saw no reason to get everyone together until they understood the playbook better. The offense is ahead of the D because they have the playbook. That being said, smart QBs and WRs try to build rapport whenever they can; and the mistrust between Smith and Crabtree has to be reduced if they are to be an effective combination.

Effectiveness has a lot more to do with coaching then it does trust. These players are not getting much done without there coaches except staying in shape. T.O. never had good chemistry with his QBs and he always produced. New team new offense didnt matter.

No, effectiveness is dependent on trust that results from good coaching and players spending time developing a rapport. Many WR/QB combinations have not meshed because one or the other did not value practice. Montana speaks often of plays like "The Catch" that seemed incredible but had been practiced a thousand times.

Lets not bring the catch or Joe Montana into this. Joe Montana took an ugly Chiefs team to an AFC title game in his first year with the team. You think he had that much "chemistry" with Chiefs WO's?

Not valuing practice and not having chemistry are two completely different things.
You can value practice and still not have good chemistry with your QB

I think you are over romanticizing the relationship between a QB and a WO. Good chemistry will always help, but the bottom line is they need to practice the plays that will be run with a coach coaching them. No amount of chemistry will replace that.
[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jun 2, 2011 at 3:37 PM ]
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You guys who think Vernon Davis or Crabtree have some obligation to be at an offseason Alex Smith-ran throwing session are grabbing at straws. The owners locked the players out. They are not getting paid, they do not have insurance. They have no reason to be there other than to satisfy the fans and media. None of our players know the offense, so practicing together is not going to be very productive is it?

Also, I would like all of you who point to Alex Smith's QB "rating" when throwing to VD actually take a look at what QB rating is supposed to represent. Isolating 1 player and finding an efficiency rating is telling you absolutely nothing. You will find that there are many crappy QB's out their with a good rating if you isolate the passes thrown to their back or tight end.

Umm wouldn't a "single player efficiency rating" tell you how effective a QB is when throwing to that player... by definition. It also tells you allot. Great coaches are statistical geniuses when it comes to football. A statistical rating that points to the receiver a QB has the greatest success throwing to is taken into account by every coaching staff. They will even break it down more and find out which receiver the QB is succesful with based on down & distance.

And unless Crabs is running hills with Rice and we for some crazy reason haven't heard about it... there is no excuse for him to be in the bay and not make an appearance at these practices. He doesn't have to be at all of them, but he has been to NONE of them.

Actually he does have an excuse to not be there. His employer is locking him out. Not paying him and not paying his insurance

But but but that shouldn't matter. He should be out there catching balls from Alex to appease the fans and the media. I mean, if he gets injured at least he'll know that he gave it is all and people on a messageboard respect him.

This whole thing is stupid. Get mad when a player doesn't show up to a mandated practice with ACTUAL COACHES!

You and Alex seem to agree on this. He wondered to reporters how much the big practices were for PR. He saw no reason to get everyone together until they understood the playbook better. The offense is ahead of the D because they have the playbook. That being said, smart QBs and WRs try to build rapport whenever they can; and the mistrust between Smith and Crabtree has to be reduced if they are to be an effective combination.

Effectiveness has a lot more to do with coaching then it does trust. These players are not getting much done without there coaches except staying in shape. T.O. never had good chemistry with his QBs and he always produced. New team new offense didnt matter.

No, effectiveness is dependent on trust that results from good coaching and players spending time developing a rapport. Many WR/QB combinations have not meshed because one or the other did not value practice. Montana speaks often of plays like "The Catch" that seemed incredible but had been practiced a thousand times.

Lets not bring the catch or Joe Montana into this. Joe Montana took an ugly Chiefs team to an AFC title game in his first year with the team. You think he had that much "chemistry" with Chiefs WO's?

Not valuing practice and not having chemistry are two completely different things.
You can value practice and still not have good chemistry with your QB

I think you are over romanticizing the relationship between a QB and a WO. Good chemistry will always help, but the bottom line is they need to practice the plays that will be run with a coach coaching them. No amount of chemistry will replace that.

Yes, I think the first thing Monatana did when he arrived in KC was to build chemistry by calling the WRs and TEs and start practicing the playbook. Why? Because he knows football and understood the necessity.

As far as coach versus player led practices...didn't know there was a choice right now.

The key to your argument is that the two players, QB and WR, know what they are doing. In Crabtree's case he has not demonstrated good route sense and TTech did not run traditional routes. So yes, he would benefit by being out there.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You guys who think Vernon Davis or Crabtree have some obligation to be at an offseason Alex Smith-ran throwing session are grabbing at straws. The owners locked the players out. They are not getting paid, they do not have insurance. They have no reason to be there other than to satisfy the fans and media. None of our players know the offense, so practicing together is not going to be very productive is it?

Also, I would like all of you who point to Alex Smith's QB "rating" when throwing to VD actually take a look at what QB rating is supposed to represent. Isolating 1 player and finding an efficiency rating is telling you absolutely nothing. You will find that there are many crappy QB's out their with a good rating if you isolate the passes thrown to their back or tight end.

Umm wouldn't a "single player efficiency rating" tell you how effective a QB is when throwing to that player... by definition. It also tells you allot. Great coaches are statistical geniuses when it comes to football. A statistical rating that points to the receiver a QB has the greatest success throwing to is taken into account by every coaching staff. They will even break it down more and find out which receiver the QB is succesful with based on down & distance.

And unless Crabs is running hills with Rice and we for some crazy reason haven't heard about it... there is no excuse for him to be in the bay and not make an appearance at these practices. He doesn't have to be at all of them, but he has been to NONE of them.

Actually he does have an excuse to not be there. His employer is locking him out. Not paying him and not paying his insurance

But but but that shouldn't matter. He should be out there catching balls from Alex to appease the fans and the media. I mean, if he gets injured at least he'll know that he gave it is all and people on a messageboard respect him.

This whole thing is stupid. Get mad when a player doesn't show up to a mandated practice with ACTUAL COACHES!

You and Alex seem to agree on this. He wondered to reporters how much the big practices were for PR. He saw no reason to get everyone together until they understood the playbook better. The offense is ahead of the D because they have the playbook. That being said, smart QBs and WRs try to build rapport whenever they can; and the mistrust between Smith and Crabtree has to be reduced if they are to be an effective combination.

Effectiveness has a lot more to do with coaching then it does trust. These players are not getting much done without there coaches except staying in shape. T.O. never had good chemistry with his QBs and he always produced. New team new offense didnt matter.

No, effectiveness is dependent on trust that results from good coaching and players spending time developing a rapport. Many WR/QB combinations have not meshed because one or the other did not value practice. Montana speaks often of plays like "The Catch" that seemed incredible but had been practiced a thousand times.

Lets not bring the catch or Joe Montana into this. Joe Montana took an ugly Chiefs team to an AFC title game in his first year with the team. You think he had that much "chemistry" with Chiefs WO's?

Not valuing practice and not having chemistry are two completely different things.
You can value practice and still not have good chemistry with your QB

I think you are over romanticizing the relationship between a QB and a WO. Good chemistry will always help, but the bottom line is they need to practice the plays that will be run with a coach coaching them. No amount of chemistry will replace that.

Yes, I think the first thing Monatana did when he arrived in KC was to build chemistry by calling the WRs and TEs and start practicing the playbook. Why? Because he knows football and understood the necessity.

As far as coach versus player led practices...didn't know there was a choice right now.

The key to your argument is that the two players, QB and WR, know what they are doing. In Crabtree's case he has not demonstrated good route sense and TTech did not run traditional routes. So yes, he would benefit by being out there.

Montana had elite accuracy, vision and football IQ, those things are all more important than chemistry with your receivers. Philip Rivers led the league in passing and his 2 top receivers did not play most of the year. Peyton Manning did the same thing. Tom Brady led the pats to a 14 and 2 record with 2 rookie tight ends as his primary pass catchers.

As far as practice, there is a choice, practice on your own. His employer is not paying his insurance. He doesn't owe anyone 1 minute of organized practice right now. If your boss cut off your paycheck and insurance would you be at home still getting work done for your company? If you say yes you are the ultimate push over.

Please spare me your arm chair analysis of Crabtree's "route sense". They are just out there throwing the damn ball around, you actually think that players are going to improve at these sessions? At the NFL level, coaching reflects the play of the players more than anything else. No coaches will be present at these practices, if an individual player decides it is wiser to wait out the labor dispute before risking injury from unsupervised practice I think they have that right.

Put Crabtree on the Patriots and he is a perennial pro bowler. Why? Because he would have a QB with elite skills, which is what successful teams and WO's need.
[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jun 2, 2011 at 4:07 PM ]
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You guys who think Vernon Davis or Crabtree have some obligation to be at an offseason Alex Smith-ran throwing session are grabbing at straws. The owners locked the players out. They are not getting paid, they do not have insurance. They have no reason to be there other than to satisfy the fans and media. None of our players know the offense, so practicing together is not going to be very productive is it?

Also, I would like all of you who point to Alex Smith's QB "rating" when throwing to VD actually take a look at what QB rating is supposed to represent. Isolating 1 player and finding an efficiency rating is telling you absolutely nothing. You will find that there are many crappy QB's out their with a good rating if you isolate the passes thrown to their back or tight end.

Umm wouldn't a "single player efficiency rating" tell you how effective a QB is when throwing to that player... by definition. It also tells you allot. Great coaches are statistical geniuses when it comes to football. A statistical rating that points to the receiver a QB has the greatest success throwing to is taken into account by every coaching staff. They will even break it down more and find out which receiver the QB is succesful with based on down & distance.

And unless Crabs is running hills with Rice and we for some crazy reason haven't heard about it... there is no excuse for him to be in the bay and not make an appearance at these practices. He doesn't have to be at all of them, but he has been to NONE of them.

Actually he does have an excuse to not be there. His employer is locking him out. Not paying him and not paying his insurance

But but but that shouldn't matter. He should be out there catching balls from Alex to appease the fans and the media. I mean, if he gets injured at least he'll know that he gave it is all and people on a messageboard respect him.

This whole thing is stupid. Get mad when a player doesn't show up to a mandated practice with ACTUAL COACHES!

You and Alex seem to agree on this. He wondered to reporters how much the big practices were for PR. He saw no reason to get everyone together until they understood the playbook better. The offense is ahead of the D because they have the playbook. That being said, smart QBs and WRs try to build rapport whenever they can; and the mistrust between Smith and Crabtree has to be reduced if they are to be an effective combination.

Effectiveness has a lot more to do with coaching then it does trust. These players are not getting much done without there coaches except staying in shape. T.O. never had good chemistry with his QBs and he always produced. New team new offense didnt matter.

No, effectiveness is dependent on trust that results from good coaching and players spending time developing a rapport. Many WR/QB combinations have not meshed because one or the other did not value practice. Montana speaks often of plays like "The Catch" that seemed incredible but had been practiced a thousand times.

Lets not bring the catch or Joe Montana into this. Joe Montana took an ugly Chiefs team to an AFC title game in his first year with the team. You think he had that much "chemistry" with Chiefs WO's?

Not valuing practice and not having chemistry are two completely different things.
You can value practice and still not have good chemistry with your QB

I think you are over romanticizing the relationship between a QB and a WO. Good chemistry will always help, but the bottom line is they need to practice the plays that will be run with a coach coaching them. No amount of chemistry will replace that.

Yes, I think the first thing Monatana did when he arrived in KC was to build chemistry by calling the WRs and TEs and start practicing the playbook. Why? Because he knows football and understood the necessity.

As far as coach versus player led practices...didn't know there was a choice right now.

The key to your argument is that the two players, QB and WR, know what they are doing. In Crabtree's case he has not demonstrated good route sense and TTech did not run traditional routes. So yes, he would benefit by being out there.

Montana had elite accuracy, vision and football IQ, those things are all more important than chemistry with your receivers. Philip Rivers led the league in passing and his 2 top receivers did not play most of the year. Peyton Manning did the same thing. Tom Brady led the pats to a 14 and 2 record with 2 rookie tight ends as his primary pass catchers.

As far as practice, there is a choice, practice on your own. His employer is not paying his insurance. He doesn't owe anyone 1 minute of organized practice right now. If your boss cut off your paycheck and insurance would you be at home still getting work done for your company? If you say yes you are the ultimate push over.

Please spare me your arm chair analysis of Crabtree's "route sense". They are just out there throwing the damn ball around, you actually think that players are going to improve at these sessions? At the NFL level, coaching reflects the play of the players more than anything else. No coaches will be present at these practices, if an individual player decides it is wiser to wait out the labor dispute before risking injury from unsupervised practice I think they have that right.

Put Crabtree on the Patriots and he is a perennial pro bowler. Why? Because he would have a QB with elite skills, which is what successful teams and WO's need.

Spare me from your disparaging comments. You have an opinion that differs from mine, that's OK.

Yes, players tend to actually know what the routes are and if Crabtree gets confused he can turn to Zeigler (or any other veteran WR) and ask for help. Route running--we all watched Crabtree cut behind CBs and Ss last year instead of in front of them to shield the ball. He did not do that in college but quite the opposite. Why?

The key is to develop chemistry, not do what they would do under a normal camp situation. They were better together the last half of the season than the first half. Why, if practice and time together is as useless as you indicate. Why do the great QBs stay out after training camp practices to work with all their receivers? In case one gets injured. Not difficult to understand. I want the optimum from Crabtree not just the league minimum. I want a super bowl, not just better ratings.

As far as injuries go, if you can show me where practicing on your own is safer than practicing in a group fine. Haven't seen any reasonable argument on that front.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You guys who think Vernon Davis or Crabtree have some obligation to be at an offseason Alex Smith-ran throwing session are grabbing at straws. The owners locked the players out. They are not getting paid, they do not have insurance. They have no reason to be there other than to satisfy the fans and media. None of our players know the offense, so practicing together is not going to be very productive is it?

Also, I would like all of you who point to Alex Smith's QB "rating" when throwing to VD actually take a look at what QB rating is supposed to represent. Isolating 1 player and finding an efficiency rating is telling you absolutely nothing. You will find that there are many crappy QB's out their with a good rating if you isolate the passes thrown to their back or tight end.

Umm wouldn't a "single player efficiency rating" tell you how effective a QB is when throwing to that player... by definition. It also tells you allot. Great coaches are statistical geniuses when it comes to football. A statistical rating that points to the receiver a QB has the greatest success throwing to is taken into account by every coaching staff. They will even break it down more and find out which receiver the QB is succesful with based on down & distance.

And unless Crabs is running hills with Rice and we for some crazy reason haven't heard about it... there is no excuse for him to be in the bay and not make an appearance at these practices. He doesn't have to be at all of them, but he has been to NONE of them.

Actually he does have an excuse to not be there. His employer is locking him out. Not paying him and not paying his insurance

But but but that shouldn't matter. He should be out there catching balls from Alex to appease the fans and the media. I mean, if he gets injured at least he'll know that he gave it is all and people on a messageboard respect him.

This whole thing is stupid. Get mad when a player doesn't show up to a mandated practice with ACTUAL COACHES!

You and Alex seem to agree on this. He wondered to reporters how much the big practices were for PR. He saw no reason to get everyone together until they understood the playbook better. The offense is ahead of the D because they have the playbook. That being said, smart QBs and WRs try to build rapport whenever they can; and the mistrust between Smith and Crabtree has to be reduced if they are to be an effective combination.

Effectiveness has a lot more to do with coaching then it does trust. These players are not getting much done without there coaches except staying in shape. T.O. never had good chemistry with his QBs and he always produced. New team new offense didnt matter.

No, effectiveness is dependent on trust that results from good coaching and players spending time developing a rapport. Many WR/QB combinations have not meshed because one or the other did not value practice. Montana speaks often of plays like "The Catch" that seemed incredible but had been practiced a thousand times.

Lets not bring the catch or Joe Montana into this. Joe Montana took an ugly Chiefs team to an AFC title game in his first year with the team. You think he had that much "chemistry" with Chiefs WO's?

Not valuing practice and not having chemistry are two completely different things.
You can value practice and still not have good chemistry with your QB

I think you are over romanticizing the relationship between a QB and a WO. Good chemistry will always help, but the bottom line is they need to practice the plays that will be run with a coach coaching them. No amount of chemistry will replace that.

Yes, I think the first thing Monatana did when he arrived in KC was to build chemistry by calling the WRs and TEs and start practicing the playbook. Why? Because he knows football and understood the necessity.

As far as coach versus player led practices...didn't know there was a choice right now.

The key to your argument is that the two players, QB and WR, know what they are doing. In Crabtree's case he has not demonstrated good route sense and TTech did not run traditional routes. So yes, he would benefit by being out there.

Montana had elite accuracy, vision and football IQ, those things are all more important than chemistry with your receivers. Philip Rivers led the league in passing and his 2 top receivers did not play most of the year. Peyton Manning did the same thing. Tom Brady led the pats to a 14 and 2 record with 2 rookie tight ends as his primary pass catchers.

As far as practice, there is a choice, practice on your own. His employer is not paying his insurance. He doesn't owe anyone 1 minute of organized practice right now. If your boss cut off your paycheck and insurance would you be at home still getting work done for your company? If you say yes you are the ultimate push over.

Please spare me your arm chair analysis of Crabtree's "route sense". They are just out there throwing the damn ball around, you actually think that players are going to improve at these sessions? At the NFL level, coaching reflects the play of the players more than anything else. No coaches will be present at these practices, if an individual player decides it is wiser to wait out the labor dispute before risking injury from unsupervised practice I think they have that right.

Put Crabtree on the Patriots and he is a perennial pro bowler. Why? Because he would have a QB with elite skills, which is what successful teams and WO's need.

Spare me from your disparaging comments. You have an opinion that differs from mine, that's OK.

Yes, players tend to actually know what the routes are and if Crabtree gets confused he can turn to Zeigler (or any other veteran WR) and ask for help. Route running--we all watched Crabtree cut behind CBs and Ss last year instead of in front of them to shield the ball. He did not do that in college but quite the opposite. Why?

The key is to develop chemistry, not do what they would do under a normal camp situation. They were better together the last half of the season than the first half. Why, if practice and time together is as useless as you indicate. Why do the great QBs stay out after training camp practices to work with all their receivers? In case one gets injured. Not difficult to understand. I want the optimum from Crabtree not just the league minimum. I want a super bowl, not just better ratings.

As far as injuries go, if you can show me where practicing on your own is safer than practicing in a group fine. Haven't seen any reasonable argument on that front.

Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know? They are all professional receivers, they know how to run the route tree. Funny you brought up a guy with less than 10 career catches to advise a guy with over 90 in less than half as many seasons. How much chemistry does Zeigler have with Smith? Where has that gotten the team? No where.

Its not about one form of practice being safer than the other. Its about not holding up your end of a contract when the other side is locking you out without pay or insurance. Why would the owners worry about getting this CBA dispute settled if they new their teams were putting in the work they are not paying them for?
[ Edited by RichmondPete on Jun 2, 2011 at 4:27 PM ]
Quote:
Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know?

It was stated that Zeigler was the best of the bunch in regards to route running... just FYI.

If Zeigler is out there working, and Crabs is not? Yeah, he may very well need to ask Z for help... though I doubt his ego would allow him to.
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
Originally posted by 5280High:
Originally posted by RichmondPete:
You guys who think Vernon Davis or Crabtree have some obligation to be at an offseason Alex Smith-ran throwing session are grabbing at straws. The owners locked the players out. They are not getting paid, they do not have insurance. They have no reason to be there other than to satisfy the fans and media. None of our players know the offense, so practicing together is not going to be very productive is it?

Also, I would like all of you who point to Alex Smith's QB "rating" when throwing to VD actually take a look at what QB rating is supposed to represent. Isolating 1 player and finding an efficiency rating is telling you absolutely nothing. You will find that there are many crappy QB's out their with a good rating if you isolate the passes thrown to their back or tight end.

Umm wouldn't a "single player efficiency rating" tell you how effective a QB is when throwing to that player... by definition. It also tells you allot. Great coaches are statistical geniuses when it comes to football. A statistical rating that points to the receiver a QB has the greatest success throwing to is taken into account by every coaching staff. They will even break it down more and find out which receiver the QB is succesful with based on down & distance.

And unless Crabs is running hills with Rice and we for some crazy reason haven't heard about it... there is no excuse for him to be in the bay and not make an appearance at these practices. He doesn't have to be at all of them, but he has been to NONE of them.

Actually he does have an excuse to not be there. His employer is locking him out. Not paying him and not paying his insurance

But but but that shouldn't matter. He should be out there catching balls from Alex to appease the fans and the media. I mean, if he gets injured at least he'll know that he gave it is all and people on a messageboard respect him.

This whole thing is stupid. Get mad when a player doesn't show up to a mandated practice with ACTUAL COACHES!

You and Alex seem to agree on this. He wondered to reporters how much the big practices were for PR. He saw no reason to get everyone together until they understood the playbook better. The offense is ahead of the D because they have the playbook. That being said, smart QBs and WRs try to build rapport whenever they can; and the mistrust between Smith and Crabtree has to be reduced if they are to be an effective combination.

Effectiveness has a lot more to do with coaching then it does trust. These players are not getting much done without there coaches except staying in shape. T.O. never had good chemistry with his QBs and he always produced. New team new offense didnt matter.

No, effectiveness is dependent on trust that results from good coaching and players spending time developing a rapport. Many WR/QB combinations have not meshed because one or the other did not value practice. Montana speaks often of plays like "The Catch" that seemed incredible but had been practiced a thousand times.

Lets not bring the catch or Joe Montana into this. Joe Montana took an ugly Chiefs team to an AFC title game in his first year with the team. You think he had that much "chemistry" with Chiefs WO's?

Not valuing practice and not having chemistry are two completely different things.
You can value practice and still not have good chemistry with your QB

I think you are over romanticizing the relationship between a QB and a WO. Good chemistry will always help, but the bottom line is they need to practice the plays that will be run with a coach coaching them. No amount of chemistry will replace that.

Yes, I think the first thing Monatana did when he arrived in KC was to build chemistry by calling the WRs and TEs and start practicing the playbook. Why? Because he knows football and understood the necessity.

As far as coach versus player led practices...didn't know there was a choice right now.

The key to your argument is that the two players, QB and WR, know what they are doing. In Crabtree's case he has not demonstrated good route sense and TTech did not run traditional routes. So yes, he would benefit by being out there.

Montana had elite accuracy, vision and football IQ, those things are all more important than chemistry with your receivers. Philip Rivers led the league in passing and his 2 top receivers did not play most of the year. Peyton Manning did the same thing. Tom Brady led the pats to a 14 and 2 record with 2 rookie tight ends as his primary pass catchers.

As far as practice, there is a choice, practice on your own. His employer is not paying his insurance. He doesn't owe anyone 1 minute of organized practice right now. If your boss cut off your paycheck and insurance would you be at home still getting work done for your company? If you say yes you are the ultimate push over.

Please spare me your arm chair analysis of Crabtree's "route sense". They are just out there throwing the damn ball around, you actually think that players are going to improve at these sessions? At the NFL level, coaching reflects the play of the players more than anything else. No coaches will be present at these practices, if an individual player decides it is wiser to wait out the labor dispute before risking injury from unsupervised practice I think they have that right.

Put Crabtree on the Patriots and he is a perennial pro bowler. Why? Because he would have a QB with elite skills, which is what successful teams and WO's need.

Spare me from your disparaging comments. You have an opinion that differs from mine, that's OK.

Yes, players tend to actually know what the routes are and if Crabtree gets confused he can turn to Zeigler (or any other veteran WR) and ask for help. Route running--we all watched Crabtree cut behind CBs and Ss last year instead of in front of them to shield the ball. He did not do that in college but quite the opposite. Why?

The key is to develop chemistry, not do what they would do under a normal camp situation. They were better together the last half of the season than the first half. Why, if practice and time together is as useless as you indicate. Why do the great QBs stay out after training camp practices to work with all their receivers? In case one gets injured. Not difficult to understand. I want the optimum from Crabtree not just the league minimum. I want a super bowl, not just better ratings.

As far as injuries go, if you can show me where practicing on your own is safer than practicing in a group fine. Haven't seen any reasonable argument on that front.

Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know? They are all professional receivers, they know how to run the route tree. Funny you brought up a guy with less than 10 career catches to advise a guy with over 90 in less than half as many seasons. How much chemistry does Zeigler have with Smith? Where has that gotten the team? No where.

Its not about one form of practice being safer than the other. Its about not holding up your end of a contract when the other side is locking you out without pay or insurance. Why would the owners worry about getting this CBA dispute settled if they new their teams were putting in the work they are not paying them for?

Sorry Pete You are drawing @ straws here. We all know that there will be a new CBA. there is no way they allow a BILLION 4 business not make its money So yes Crabs should be doing whatever he needs to be doing to help this season out. Your attitude is that of someone that loves to wait until the ast minute to get ready. Does it matter if he was in Texas working out and got hurt? no so why not be out there with your team. ESP since you are in the CITY. He doesn't even have to come every day but say hello or something.
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Quote:
Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know?

It was stated that Zeigler was the best of the bunch in regards to route running... just FYI.

If Zeigler is out there working, and Crabs is not? Yeah, he may very well need to ask Z for help... though I doubt his ego would allow him to.

Proof please.
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Quote:
Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know?

It was stated that Zeigler was the best of the bunch in regards to route running... just FYI.

If Zeigler is out there working, and Crabs is not? Yeah, he may very well need to ask Z for help... though I doubt his ego would allow him to.

Proof please.

it was news over TC last 2 years that that ziegler ran best routes raye WR coach i think even martz said so

but all said was too small and needed to put on weight
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Quote:
Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know?

It was stated that Zeigler was the best of the bunch in regards to route running... just FYI.

If Zeigler is out there working, and Crabs is not? Yeah, he may very well need to ask Z for help... though I doubt his ego would allow him to.

Proof please.

it was news over TC last 2 years that that ziegler ran best routes raye WR coach i think even martz said so

but all said was too small and needed to put on weight

I'm talking about Crabtree.
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Quote:
Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know?

It was stated that Zeigler was the best of the bunch in regards to route running... just FYI.

If Zeigler is out there working, and Crabs is not? Yeah, he may very well need to ask Z for help... though I doubt his ego would allow him to.

Proof please.

it was news over TC last 2 years that that ziegler ran best routes raye WR coach i think even martz said so

but all said was too small and needed to put on weight

I'm talking about Crabtree.

I have provided an article snippet, I can't believe this seems to be news to you.

FOX analyst and former Ravens coach Brian Billick observed that
Crabtree’s route running left something to be desired during last week’s
broadcast. And offensive coordinator Mike Johnson didn’t protest
Tuesday when asked about Billick’s assessment.

“That’s something that a lot of the young wide receivers have to go
through, they have to go through a progression of understanding how to
run routes the way true route runners run them,” Johnson said. “That’s
not a knock against Crabtree, that’s just a fact of him being a young
football player and still learning and developing. But I think he’s
working hard at his craft.”


one of many links if you searched.

-9fA
Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:
Originally posted by JayBee:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Quote:
Tell me how Crabtree needs the advice of Zeigler about a brand new offense that none of them know?

It was stated that Zeigler was the best of the bunch in regards to route running... just FYI.

If Zeigler is out there working, and Crabs is not? Yeah, he may very well need to ask Z for help... though I doubt his ego would allow him to.

Proof please.

it was news over TC last 2 years that that ziegler ran best routes raye WR coach i think even martz said so

but all said was too small and needed to put on weight

I'm talking about Crabtree.

I have provided an article snippet, I can't believe this seems to be news to you.

FOX analyst and former Ravens coach Brian Billick observed that
Crabtree’s route running left something to be desired during last week’s
broadcast. And offensive coordinator Mike Johnson didn’t protest
Tuesday when asked about Billick’s assessment.

“That’s something that a lot of the young wide receivers have to go
through, they have to go through a progression of understanding how to
run routes the way true route runners run them,” Johnson said. “That’s
not a knock against Crabtree, that’s just a fact of him being a young
football player and still learning and developing. But I think he’s
working hard at his craft.”


one of many links if you searched.

-9fA

Doesn't seem like that big of a deal...
per vernon davis twitter

Time to hit the sheets. I got to get some rest so I can get ready for mini camp with my favorite guy Alex Smith. Wait til he see my routes!!