Is Crabtree Overrated ?

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:

Originally posted by binary2nd:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by fortyyearniner:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:

Originally posted by fortyyearniner:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
On April 15ths Path to the Draft, Charlie Casserly rated Crabtree as his 6th rated WR "PROSPECT" he's ever scouted.

1. Andre Johnson

2. Calvin Johnson

3. A.J Green

4. Dez Bryant

5. Larry Fitz

6. Michael Crabtree - Said he has incrediably quick feet and ability to seperate. He wasn't really talking about speed, but the ability to get open. He also said he has great hands.

Yeah. I saw the same show. It confirms that Crabtree under performs. He may have quick feet but is slow into his routes, good hands but slow reflexes have him dropping too many passes, great at running routes except those that are called, and not enough speed to separate. Alot of flash and ego but not enough substance. Every player has talent, the good ones use it. Talent is the word used when you have not achieved your potential. It's time to convert talent to substance.

OK obviously you didn't watch the segment because he talked about how excellent Crabtree was at getting separation. nice try though

his knock coming out of college was speed and seperation

Yeah. Separation from whom. He is not in college anymore. Casserly's reference was to receivers coming out of college. He is not in college anymore, although he plays like it at times. I wonder if Casserly thinks he is a top 5 receiver in the NFL. I doubt you will find him in the top 10 or 15. His skill set does not compete well against quality NFL CB's. Likewise for Morgan, they don't have explosive speed. The game is won in the first 4 & 5 steps, explosion! Not build up speed. Immediate explosion. We need somebody with explosion and speed in this draft. It will make our other WR's more competitive.

Just curious, if he is not "explosive" how would you explain his YAC? It's like top 7 in the NFL.

Yahoo says that Crabtree averaged:
2009: 4.0 YAC
2010: 5.8 YAC

That's nowhere near top 7. Considering that to get into the top 5, you need to have an average YAC of about 10, Crabtree has a long way to go.

linkage

-9fA

and mos of his yac was off screens and that broken Troy Smith throw.

LOL, yeah let's discount that last TD...wtf

No question the offensive systems in place were inadequate to take advantage of the skills AS, Crabs, Vernon, Delaney, and Morgan possess. AS can play, just not the way he is utilized (Manning, Brady, and Warner are seldom under center, Why? because that is not the best use of their skill set). If the offense revolves around the QB then develop its structure upon the QB strenghts instead of pigeon holing him into something that puts him at a disadvantage. Vernon and Delaney gift is speed yet we line them up inside taking away their single explosive advantage (Create a mismatch which is coaching). Crabs should be in the slot where he can get a head start off the LOS with separation, he just needs to be ready for quick throws (throws he tends to tip or drop). Morgan is muscle and build up speed which is a good match up for smaller CB's (similar to TO ) so stucture routes that play to his strength. Harbaugh will get the system in place. The question is? will he bench Crabs and Morgan if they do not understand and execute with proper timing complex route structure?

Originally posted by Leathaface:
LOL @ people trying to judge how good Crabtree is when he's had Alex Smith and Troy Smith as his QBs.

he messed up too much to just discount it.

Originally posted by binary2nd:

Originally posted by Leathaface:
LOL @ people trying to judge how good Crabtree is when he's had Alex Smith and Troy Smith as his QBs.

he messed up too much to just discount it.

exactly, he had to many passes hit him in the hands to only be either A) dropped or B) tipped into the air.

Originally posted by binary2nd:

Originally posted by Leathaface:
LOL @ people trying to judge how good Crabtree is when he's had Alex Smith and Troy Smith as his QBs.

he messed up too much to just discount it.

exactly it hasntaffecte morgan and VD morgan has ober 700 yds whch is a alot for a number 2 and VD had was probally top 5 out of TEs

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by fortyyearniner:

Originally posted by 49ersalldaway126:

Originally posted by DonnieDarko:

Originally posted by fortyyearniner:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
On April 15ths Path to the Draft, Charlie Casserly rated Crabtree as his 6th rated WR "PROSPECT" he's ever scouted.

1. Andre Johnson

2. Calvin Johnson

3. A.J Green

4. Dez Bryant

5. Larry Fitz

6. Michael Crabtree - Said he has incrediably quick feet and ability to seperate. He wasn't really talking about speed, but the ability to get open. He also said he has great hands.

Yeah. I saw the same show. It confirms that Crabtree under performs. He may have quick feet but is slow into his routes, good hands but slow reflexes have him dropping too many passes, great at running routes except those that are called, and not enough speed to separate. Alot of flash and ego but not enough substance. Every player has talent, the good ones use it. Talent is the word used when you have not achieved your potential. It's time to convert talent to substance.

OK obviously you didn't watch the segment because he talked about how excellent Crabtree was at getting separation. nice try though

his knock coming out of college was speed and seperation

Yeah. Separation from whom. He is not in college anymore. Casserly's reference was to receivers coming out of college. He is not in college anymore, although he plays like it at times. I wonder if Casserly thinks he is a top 5 receiver in the NFL. I doubt you will find him in the top 10 or 15. His skill set does not compete well against quality NFL CB's. Likewise for Morgan, they don't have explosive speed. The game is won in the first 4 & 5 steps, explosion! Not build up speed. Immediate explosion. We need somebody with explosion and speed in this draft. It will make our other WR's more competitive.

Just curious, if he is not "explosive" how would you explain his YAC? It's like top 7 in the NFL.

Yahoo says that Crabtree averaged:
2009: 4.0 YAC
2010: 5.8 YAC

That's nowhere near top 7. Considering that to get into the top 5, you need to have an average YAC of about 10, Crabtree has a long way to go.

linkage

-9fA

Crap. Now I'm going to have to go dig for that stat. I know it's somewhere here on this thread....[:(}

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by StOnEy333:

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Crabtree was not impressive this year. That video showed he has about zero YAC ability.

Dude, are you like really, really serious?

Crabtree was Top 10 (#8) in the NFL this year for YAC/catch for receivers w/ >50 catches this year.

If you want to go down to 40 catches, he's Top 11, and Josh Morgan (now eligible w/ 44 catches) is top 3 in the NFL.

Vernon Davis was also #1 in the NFL for YAC/catch this year for TEs.

Basically, if you want to combine WRs and TEs and make the threshold 40 catches, we had three players in the top 15 in the NFL for YAC per catch this last season.*


I swear to god some of you don't even watch the games and just come here to senselessly complain.


*Which yes, is also Alex's fault.


EDIT: Stats here -- http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byposition?pos=WR&conference=NFL&year=season_2010&timeframe=All&sort=46&old_category=TE

pwn3d lol

Ah, yeah. This is basically the thread where I got schooled. It was in the MC Video Thread. However, I stand corrected. He was 8th in the league last year, not 7th. No matter how you slice it, 8th out of all WR is pretty legit. Look at some of the guys he's ahead of.

Yes he is.

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by StOnEy333:

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Crabtree was not impressive this year. That video showed he has about zero YAC ability.

Dude, are you like really, really serious?

Crabtree was Top 10 (#8) in the NFL this year for YAC/catch for receivers w/ >50 catches this year.

If you want to go down to 40 catches, he's Top 11, and Josh Morgan (now eligible w/ 44 catches) is top 3 in the NFL.

Vernon Davis was also #1 in the NFL for YAC/catch this year for TEs.

Basically, if you want to combine WRs and TEs and make the threshold 40 catches, we had three players in the top 15 in the NFL for YAC per catch this last season.*


I swear to god some of you don't even watch the games and just come here to senselessly complain.


*Which yes, is also Alex's fault.


EDIT: Stats here -- http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byposition?pos=WR&conference=NFL&year=season_2010&timeframe=All&sort=46&old_category=TE

pwn3d lol

Ah, yeah. This is basically the thread where I got schooled. It was in the MC Video Thread. However, I stand corrected. He was 8th in the league last year, not 7th. No matter how you slice it, 8th out of all WR is pretty legit. Look at some of the guys he's ahead of.

Excellent resource. What does it show. Crabs and Morgan perform better in space than other WR's? Yielding better YAC. What is compelling to me is that neither WR is in the top 20 in catches or yardage. Look at the top three WR on the list and look at their production. Their YAC sucks in comparison to their overall production. I'm surprised at how close Crabs and Morgan are in their overall receiver production. Crabs has about 50 more yardage with 9 more catches. I wonder where Crabs and Morgan fall in the tip and dropped passes scenario? I wonder if we offered Crabs up for a trade who we would get in exchange on this list or what draft pick a team would give up to get their hands Crabtree?

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by StOnEy333:

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Crabtree was not impressive this year. That video showed he has about zero YAC ability.

Dude, are you like really, really serious?

Crabtree was Top 10 (#8) in the NFL this year for YAC/catch for receivers w/ >50 catches this year.

If you want to go down to 40 catches, he's Top 11, and Josh Morgan (now eligible w/ 44 catches) is top 3 in the NFL.

Vernon Davis was also #1 in the NFL for YAC/catch this year for TEs.

Basically, if you want to combine WRs and TEs and make the threshold 40 catches, we had three players in the top 15 in the NFL for YAC per catch this last season.*


I swear to god some of you don't even watch the games and just come here to senselessly complain.


*Which yes, is also Alex's fault.


EDIT: Stats here -- http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byposition?pos=WR&conference=NFL&year=season_2010&timeframe=All&sort=46&old_category=TE

pwn3d lol

Ah, yeah. This is basically the thread where I got schooled. It was in the MC Video Thread. However, I stand corrected. He was 8th in the league last year, not 7th. No matter how you slice it, 8th out of all WR is pretty legit. Look at some of the guys he's ahead of.

Ah, for receivers who have over 50 catches, Crabtree is ranked 7th - I was ranking for all WRs. However, for receivers who have at minimum 20 catches, Crabtree drops to 22nd. Interestingly enough, the top WRs do not have great YACs. For example, Roddy White only averages 3.3 YAC and he has a good QB throwing to him. Andre Johnson only averages 4 YAC.

The conclusion that I come to is that YAC is not necessarily a good measure of a WR's productivity. Sure, it's nice for a a WR to have a good YAC but it's not a premium measuring stick. Catches and yards/game is a more telling indication of how productive a WR is IMO.

-9fA

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by StOnEy333:

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Crabtree was not impressive this year. That video showed he has about zero YAC ability.

Dude, are you like really, really serious?

Crabtree was Top 10 (#8) in the NFL this year for YAC/catch for receivers w/ >50 catches this year.

If you want to go down to 40 catches, he's Top 11, and Josh Morgan (now eligible w/ 44 catches) is top 3 in the NFL.

Vernon Davis was also #1 in the NFL for YAC/catch this year for TEs.

Basically, if you want to combine WRs and TEs and make the threshold 40 catches, we had three players in the top 15 in the NFL for YAC per catch this last season.*


I swear to god some of you don't even watch the games and just come here to senselessly complain.


*Which yes, is also Alex's fault.


EDIT: Stats here -- http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byposition?pos=WR&conference=NFL&year=season_2010&timeframe=All&sort=46&old_category=TE

pwn3d lol

Ah, yeah. This is basically the thread where I got schooled. It was in the MC Video Thread. However, I stand corrected. He was 8th in the league last year, not 7th. No matter how you slice it, 8th out of all WR is pretty legit. Look at some of the guys he's ahead of.

Ah, for receivers who have over 50 catches, Crabtree is ranked 7th - I was ranking for all WRs. However, for receivers who have at minimum 20 catches, Crabtree drops to 22nd. Interestingly enough, the top WRs do not have great YACs. For example, Roddy White only averages 3.3 YAC and he has a good QB throwing to him. Andre Johnson only averages 4 YAC.

The conclusion that I come to is that YAC is not necessarily a good measure of a WR's productivity. Sure, it's nice for a a WR to have a good YAC but it's not a premium measuring stick. Catches and yards/game is a more telling indication of how productive a WR is IMO.

-9fA

Does it really make sense to use WRs with 20 catches on the year as a measuring stick? There have been recievers that have caught more than 20 balls in a game, a Niner was one of them. Using 50 as a base line to qualify is no diffrent than using a base line number of carries a RB must have before we take his YPC serious.

I agree that yards per game is very important, but at that point you really have to consider various factors such as QB and game plan. And with all the problems the Niners have I find it too difficult to judge a WR based on such stats.


I do have one theory as to why the Niners WR yac is so high. The theory's name is Alex Smith. I believe unlike some of the better QBs he is much more unlikely to throw to a covered reciever. Therefore, when our recievers do get the ball it's only because there is no one around them. What do you think?

I still have Crab fever!

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by darkknight49:

Originally posted by StOnEy333:

Originally posted by PopeyeJonesing:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Crabtree was not impressive this year. That video showed he has about zero YAC ability.

Dude, are you like really, really serious?

Crabtree was Top 10 (#8) in the NFL this year for YAC/catch for receivers w/ >50 catches this year.

If you want to go down to 40 catches, he's Top 11, and Josh Morgan (now eligible w/ 44 catches) is top 3 in the NFL.

Vernon Davis was also #1 in the NFL for YAC/catch this year for TEs.

Basically, if you want to combine WRs and TEs and make the threshold 40 catches, we had three players in the top 15 in the NFL for YAC per catch this last season.*


I swear to god some of you don't even watch the games and just come here to senselessly complain.


*Which yes, is also Alex's fault.


EDIT: Stats here -- http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byposition?pos=WR&conference=NFL&year=season_2010&timeframe=All&sort=46&old_category=TE

pwn3d lol

Ah, yeah. This is basically the thread where I got schooled. It was in the MC Video Thread. However, I stand corrected. He was 8th in the league last year, not 7th. No matter how you slice it, 8th out of all WR is pretty legit. Look at some of the guys he's ahead of.

Ah, for receivers who have over 50 catches, Crabtree is ranked 7th - I was ranking for all WRs. However, for receivers who have at minimum 20 catches, Crabtree drops to 22nd. Interestingly enough, the top WRs do not have great YACs. For example, Roddy White only averages 3.3 YAC and he has a good QB throwing to him. Andre Johnson only averages 4 YAC.

The conclusion that I come to is that YAC is not necessarily a good measure of a WR's productivity. Sure, it's nice for a a WR to have a good YAC but it's not a premium measuring stick. Catches and yards/game is a more telling indication of how productive a WR is IMO.

-9fA

Does it really make sense to use WRs with 20 catches on the year as a measuring stick? There have been recievers that have caught more than 20 balls in a game, a Niner was one of them. Using 50 as a base line to qualify is no diffrent than using a base line number of carries a RB must have before we take his YPC serious.

I agree that yards per game is very important, but at that point you really have to consider various factors such as QB and game plan. And with all the problems the Niners have I find it too difficult to judge a WR based on such stats.


I do have one theory as to why the Niners WR yac is so high. The theory's name is Alex Smith. I believe unlike some of the better QBs he is much more unlikely to throw to a covered reciever. Therefore, when our recievers do get the ball it's only because there is no one around them. What do you think?

if u acually watched a game you would know thats not true

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:

Originally posted by 9erfanAUS:

Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Ah, yeah. This is basically the thread where I got schooled. It was in the MC Video Thread. However, I stand corrected. He was 8th in the league last year, not 7th. No matter how you slice it, 8th out of all WR is pretty legit. Look at some of the guys he's ahead of.

Ah, for receivers who have over 50 catches, Crabtree is ranked 7th - I was ranking for all WRs. However, for receivers who have at minimum 20 catches, Crabtree drops to 22nd. Interestingly enough, the top WRs do not have great YACs. For example, Roddy White only averages 3.3 YAC and he has a good QB throwing to him. Andre Johnson only averages 4 YAC.

The conclusion that I come to is that YAC is not necessarily a good measure of a WR's productivity. Sure, it's nice for a a WR to have a good YAC but it's not a premium measuring stick. Catches and yards/game is a more telling indication of how productive a WR is IMO.

-9fA

Does it really make sense to use WRs with 20 catches on the year as a measuring stick? There have been recievers that have caught more than 20 balls in a game, a Niner was one of them. Using 50 as a base line to qualify is no diffrent than using a base line number of carries a RB must have before we take his YPC serious.

I agree that yards per game is very important, but at that point you really have to consider various factors such as QB and game plan. And with all the problems the Niners have I find it too difficult to judge a WR based on such stats.


I do have one theory as to why the Niners WR yac is so high. The theory's name is Alex Smith. I believe unlike some of the better QBs he is much more unlikely to throw to a covered reciever. Therefore, when our recievers do get the ball it's only because there is no one around them. What do you think?

I agree with you but I have no idea what is a good baseline. I was just using 20 catches to illustrate a point, that is all.

I personally believe that outstanding WR play can be achieved in spite of poor QB play. All you have to do is to look at Calvin Johnson in Detroit and Andre Johnson in Texas before Schaub.

To me, Crabtree has shown that he can be a good WR, but he hasn't shown that he can be that perennial pro-bowl, all-pro WR.

As for your theory, you could be right. I'm not quite sure how you would verify it though.

-9fA

niner fans overrate him, the rest of the country is aware hes not that good

Originally posted by superman49er:
niner fans overrate him, the rest of the country is aware hes not that good

hes two years in!!!! Look at Vernon Davis and how long it took for him to become a pro bowler. Lets wait and see what he douse with an offensive minded head coach before we ask this.