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Time and time again it has been proven

Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by backontop:


2nd in all purpose yards only due to the fact that Alex Smith had to dump the ball off to him so often because of the OLine.

Umm... or because Gore is good? You do know that Gore has been the top yards from scrimmage guy since 2006, right? I want you to do a quick count in your head how many different linemen, quarterbacks, and offensive coordinators he's had in that time period.

He's always done this. It's a part of his game and it's why he's a complete back. Unlike guys like Blount who can't catch or block.

Sorry, I don't give a crap about Gore's stats. He should have good stats, as he gets basically like 60% of the team's offensive touches. With an utilization rate like that he should be leading the league in multiple offensive stats. But he isn't even doing that. And more important, the Niners aren't winning.

And the stats don't mean much. Great stats for Gore does not necessary mean great things for the Niners. The Niners offense should play as a team, and utilize its' team strengths, not just hand the ball off to one guy and let him carry the team.

Gearing everything around Gore is recipe for disaster, and basically every year with as the featured back has seen the 49ers lose as a team. Good teams know how to shut him down.
Originally posted by fastforward:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Nothing against Frank, but look at the Rams and Stephen Jackson. As long as SJ was the focus he put up very Frank like numbers, he has been as large a part of their offense as Frank has been ours. How well did it work for them? About the same as it has been working for us, we need to focus our offense around the QB even if our QB sucks, we will have more success, this is a QB driven league if you try to win running first you won't go far. Sure their is always one or two teams that do well running, but if you don't chuck the rock you won't win in the NFL.

The good running teams have the benefit of having a great OL. The 49ers OL is far from that. In fact everything starts with competent OL play. The 49ers are the one of the most penalized teams (I think they are the most, but I'm too lazy to look up to verify now). You don't win in close games when your OL players stall drives with stupid penalties.

Sure but name a team without a great Qb whose offense is built around a single running back that has won anything in the last decade!
  • Wodwo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,104
Originally posted by kray28:

Sorry, I don't give a crap about Gore's stats. He should have good stats, as he gets basically like 60% of the team's offensive touches. With an utilization rate like that he should be leading the league in multiple offensive stats. But he isn't even doing that. And more important, the Niners aren't winning.

And the stats don't mean much. Great stats for Gore does not necessary mean great things for the Niners. The Niners offense should play as a team, and utilize its' team strengths, not just hand the ball off to one guy and let him carry the team.

Gearing everything around Gore is recipe for disaster, and basically every year with as the featured back has seen the 49ers lose as a team. Good teams know how to shut him down.

He's had most of our offensive touches since 2006. That doesn't mean he's getting a huge number of touches. It's the yards he's been getting per touch that is important. The guy who is second on the list is Steven Jackson. He has a lower career average per run and average per catch.

Run

Gore: 4.8

Jackson: 4.3

Catch

Gore: 8.5

Jackson: 8.2

You say you don't care about stats because he's getting such a large percentage of offensive touches this year. Can you not see that the coaching and blocking are awful? Teams know where we are going to run before we snap the ball. What do you expect Gore to do? He's running the plays that are called for him and the line can't block eight guys who all know what gap we're targeting.

Gore has shown season after season that he can break huge runs out of a pile that looked like he was going to be stuffed. He's only had the one huge run this season against the Raiders and there was good blocking on that play for once. It was also one of the few creative run plays we've executed properly. It was taking advantage of our predictability with our penchant to run "Power O". We pulled Iupati like we were running a normal "Power O" and at the same time we pulled Baas to run off tackle. Iupati stops mid-pull and turns to contain backside defenders in place of Baas. Baas continues on and it plays just like a normal off tackle play, but because we made it look like "Power O" the defense was set to fill the B gap like normal, but we stretched it outside and walled them off easily with Norris, A.Davis, and V.Davis after hitting the C gap because they were slowed by the fake.





Unfortunately, we continue to run "Power O" (pull Iupati into right B gap and have Gore follow) even when it's clear that the defense knows we're going to run it most of the time. They just stuff that gap by squeezing Rachal and Davis, while keeping the edge contained. Sometimes it works for us, most of the time it doesn't. Almost all of our best run plays are built on the predictable failure of this play.

Here's the play with the Saints failing outside contain:



You can see just how filled that B gap is. It's almost always like that.

This next one is how the play is supposed to look, only we're running it out of three wide:



It's successful because the box isn't stacked to stuff it due to the pass formation.

I'm not going to be able to find you video of the many stuffs we've seen. My point is that we need to mix up the run game more. We are way too predictable and it's absurd. Again, this is on the coaches, not Gore.

I agree with you that we need to do a better job of getting the ball to our other weapons. I mean... you want to do that if you're building around Gore or not. It's just basic football. We just have terrible coaches and terrible blocking. We had a couple games with Troy where he was able to extend plays in spite of the o-line and coaching and improvise to get the ball our other play makers. We won those games, right?

Broncos Game

Total Offensive Touches: 54

Gore's Touches: 30

56%

Rams Game

Total Offensive Touches: 43

Gore's Touches: 25

58%

So, your theory that giving Gore around 60% of the offenses touches being bad is obviously wrong, right?

Well, not so much. The point is that you can still spread the ball around (historically well in the game against the Rams) and still get Gore a high percentage of touches. Troy Smith was just able to overcome the limitations of the o-line and the coaching staff by extending plays with his legs and improvising.

The problem is the coaching and the o-line. We can't be consistent with our game plan if we can't run or pass block and our coaches are being predictable.

Not Gore's fault.
^^ good research
Originally posted by 49erRider:
Originally posted by TDNiners:
that if your offensive game plan centered around Gore 99% of the time the 49ers will lose.

Gore is not in the mold of other famous 49er backs. He is not explosive, one dimensional, and can't create his own holes. He is OK. Not a superstar. He is not a threat to take it all the way. There is no fear.

I rather have the offensive game plan center around Davis, Walker, Crabtree.
Brian Westbrook would be better compliment to Davis, Walker, Crabtree than Gore.

Gore is not a threat. Defense are jumping for joy every time we give it or pass it to Gore.

If we didn't insist of feeding Gore for 5 years, we would have passing by now.

You can almost here the collective "Oh no!" from 49er fans everytime Gore touches the ball.

What a joke.

No RB in the league would have success behind that O-Line the way they played today. No RB in 49ers history would have, either. Remove your head from your rear end before you post again.

Hmmmm, I seem to remember reading this about another position on the Offense and someone here saying that I need to stop making excuses. Now who was that masked man?

~Ceadder
  • Wodwo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,104
Originally posted by ApatheticIAm:
^^ good research

Thanks!

My internet went down in the middle of the post as I was getting the last bits of information. Had to wait like three hours to finish it. Hehehe....
Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by kray28:

Sorry, I don't give a crap about Gore's stats. He should have good stats, as he gets basically like 60% of the team's offensive touches. With an utilization rate like that he should be leading the league in multiple offensive stats. But he isn't even doing that. And more important, the Niners aren't winning.

And the stats don't mean much. Great stats for Gore does not necessary mean great things for the Niners. The Niners offense should play as a team, and utilize its' team strengths, not just hand the ball off to one guy and let him carry the team.

Gearing everything around Gore is recipe for disaster, and basically every year with as the featured back has seen the 49ers lose as a team. Good teams know how to shut him down.

He's had most of our offensive touches since 2006. That doesn't mean he's getting a huge number of touches. It's the yards he's been getting per touch that is important. The guy who is second on the list is Steven Jackson. He has a lower career average per run and average per catch.

Run

Gore: 4.8

Jackson: 4.3

Catch

Gore: 8.5

Jackson: 8.2

You say you don't care about stats because he's getting such a large percentage of offensive touches this year. Can you not see that the coaching and blocking are awful? Teams know where we are going to run before we snap the ball. What do you expect Gore to do? He's running the plays that are called for him and the line can't block eight guys who all know what gap we're targeting.

Gore has shown season after season that he can break huge runs out of a pile that looked like he was going to be stuffed. He's only had the one huge run this season against the Raiders and there was good blocking on that play for once. It was also one of the few creative run plays we've executed properly. It was taking advantage of our predictability with our penchant to run "Power O". We pulled Iupati like we were running a normal "Power O" and at the same time we pulled Baas to run off tackle. Iupati stops mid-pull and turns to contain backside defenders in place of Baas. Baas continues on and it plays just like a normal off tackle play, but because we made it look like "Power O" the defense was set to fill the B gap like normal, but we stretched it outside and walled them off easily with Norris, A.Davis, and V.Davis after hitting the C gap because they were slowed by the fake.





Unfortunately, we continue to run "Power O" (pull Iupati into right B gap and have Gore follow) even when it's clear that the defense knows we're going to run it most of the time. They just stuff that gap by squeezing Rachal and Davis, while keeping the edge contained. Sometimes it works for us, most of the time it doesn't. Almost all of our best run plays are built on the predictable failure of this play.

Here's the play with the Saints failing outside contain:



You can see just how filled that B gap is. It's almost always like that.

This next one is how the play is supposed to look, only we're running it out of three wide:



It's successful because the box isn't stacked to stuff it due to the pass formation.

I'm not going to be able to find you video of the many stuffs we've seen. My point is that we need to mix up the run game more. We are way too predictable and it's absurd. Again, this is on the coaches, not Gore.

I agree with you that we need to do a better job of getting the ball to our other weapons. I mean... you want to do that if you're building around Gore or not. It's just basic football. We just have terrible coaches and terrible blocking. We had a couple games with Troy where he was able to extend plays in spite of the o-line and coaching and improvise to get the ball our other play makers. We won those games, right?

Broncos Game

Total Offensive Touches: 54

Gore's Touches: 30

56%

Rams Game

Total Offensive Touches: 43

Gore's Touches: 25

58%

So, your theory that giving Gore around 60% of the offenses touches being bad is obviously wrong, right?

Well, not so much. The point is that you can still spread the ball around (historically well in the game against the Rams) and still get Gore a high percentage of touches. Troy Smith was just able to overcome the limitations of the o-line and the coaching staff by extending plays with his legs and improvising.

The problem is the coaching and the o-line. We can't be consistent with our game plan if we can't run or pass block and our coaches are being predictable.

Not Gore's fault.

Excellent facts. Confirming everything that I've ever said.

Of note, we picked up one of the most explosive Backs in the history of the game and we either don't know how to use him or when we do use him correctly we're so enthused with the success that we go right back to the same play and come away scratching our heads wondering why an 8 yard success before turned into a 3 yard failure on that next play. I'm talking about Westbrook. I bet that guy is questioning why he signed with us when he could've gone to the Rams.

We don't run swing passes at all. We rarely run trap plays to take advantage of the Defenses that stack the box, screens are few and far between except in the example I relate, all draws and all up the middle. If we give the ball to Norris he gets bubkis. We can replace the QB cause he doesn't matter on this team, but we can't replace the RG cause it would hurt his feelings.

People need to lay off Davis. Seriously. Dude is a ROOKIE playing next to a liability. Has he been victimized? Yes. But he's had good games too. However let's remember that some opponents have been pulling cheap sh!t against him too. And the friggin Officials have turned a blind eye to just about everything our opponent does and flags us for the silliest of penalties that shouldn't ever have been called in the first place. "Uh oh look over yonder Manny hit the QB with a textbook tackle as the ball left his hand... unsportsmanlike conduct for leading with his helmet" like where the hell is he supposed to put it? On his ass so he doesn't unintentionally collide with the QB?

This whole friggin season is a travesty. I can pull up all kinds of film from the last 3 years that shows the Refs ain't dealin off the top of the deck. And the league won't do a fvckin thing one about it. What makes it worse for me as a fan of this team is that our own Coaches vanilla us to death and won't put their foot on the neck of the opponent. We go from one game starting off with Play Action to the next trying to Run. We score on the first drive, only to dial it back like 7 points is going to be enough to carry the day. And then expect Alex (or Troy) to pull off the miracle come from behind victory. The players performance on the field reflects these issues. They know that even if they play smart the friggin Zebras will flag them anyway. Staley got flagged two weeks ago for taking a guy to the ground with his arm around him. Ticky tack as fvck! But the other team was doin it to our guys ALL GAME LONG!!!

So not only do we gotta fight the Zebras we gotta fight our own Coach. Fvckin insanity at it's best.

It sure would be nice if our Receivers acted like they gave a damn. Maybe the QBs' could get some momentum built up. But nope Sullivan doesn't know how to coach them to stay mobile and to get separation from the Defenders. Sunday we saw exactly what we can expect from the Receivers. They make ONE good play and then they disappear for the rest of the game. When that happens the Defenders key on Davis and go man on the rest.

I could run this team 100x better than Sing does. I like the guy as a personnel man but he really sucks as a HC. Hell I bet I could put together a team of scrubs and have better results.

[/rant]

~Ceadder

[ Edited by Ceadderman on Nov 23, 2010 at 05:03:44 ]
ok, I get seriously angry when I hear people spout out a stat like that. 14-0 when he has 24 carries.

Let's get something straight, in statistics there is a difference between causation and correlation.

Frank Gore's 24 attempts correlates to the 49ers winning because when you are already ahead you tend to run the ball more, especially at the end of games.

We win because of many factors, but 24 carries is not a cause, it is a BE-CAUSE. We don't win BECAUSE Gore runs 24 times. Gore runs 24 times BECAUSE we are winning.

A difference between correlation and causation. It would be like saying "The more firemen fighting a fire, the bigger the fire tends to be. Therefore firemen cause fire."

[ Edited by Syxton on Nov 23, 2010 at 06:02:52 ]
Originally posted by chico49erfan:
Insanity -- doing something that doesn't work over and over and over expecting different results.


Welcome to the 49ers.

in a nutshell
  • Wodwo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,104
Originally posted by Syxton:
ok, I get seriously angry when I hear people spout out a stat like that. 14-0 when he has 24 carries.

Let's get something straight, in statistics there is a difference between causation and correlation.

Frank Gore's 24 attempts correlates to the 49ers winning because when you are already ahead you tend to run the ball more, especially at the end of games.

We win because of many factors, but 24 carries is not a cause, it is a BE-CAUSE. We don't win BECAUSE Gore runs 24 times. Gore runs 24 times BECAUSE we are winning.

A difference between correlation and causation. It would be like saying "The more firemen fighting a fire, the bigger the fire tends to be. Therefore firemen cause fire."

Oh hush... I've taken statistics, I know that. Football is a game of "fun" stats. There are far too many variables that are far too subjective to get any viable data. I enjoy my "fun" football stats. Quit trying to poop in my party hat.
Originally posted by Wodwo:
Originally posted by kray28:

Sorry, I don't give a crap about Gore's stats. He should have good stats, as he gets basically like 60% of the team's offensive touches. With an utilization rate like that he should be leading the league in multiple offensive stats. But he isn't even doing that. And more important, the Niners aren't winning.

And the stats don't mean much. Great stats for Gore does not necessary mean great things for the Niners. The Niners offense should play as a team, and utilize its' team strengths, not just hand the ball off to one guy and let him carry the team.

Gearing everything around Gore is recipe for disaster, and basically every year with as the featured back has seen the 49ers lose as a team. Good teams know how to shut him down.

He's had most of our offensive touches since 2006. That doesn't mean he's getting a huge number of touches. It's the yards he's been getting per touch that is important. The guy who is second on the list is Steven Jackson. He has a lower career average per run and average per catch.

Run

Gore: 4.8

Jackson: 4.3

Catch

Gore: 8.5

Jackson: 8.2

You say you don't care about stats because he's getting such a large percentage of offensive touches this year. Can you not see that the coaching and blocking are awful? Teams know where we are going to run before we snap the ball. What do you expect Gore to do? He's running the plays that are called for him and the line can't block eight guys who all know what gap we're targeting.

Gore has shown season after season that he can break huge runs out of a pile that looked like he was going to be stuffed. He's only had the one huge run this season against the Raiders and there was good blocking on that play for once. It was also one of the few creative run plays we've executed properly. It was taking advantage of our predictability with our penchant to run "Power O". We pulled Iupati like we were running a normal "Power O" and at the same time we pulled Baas to run off tackle. Iupati stops mid-pull and turns to contain backside defenders in place of Baas. Baas continues on and it plays just like a normal off tackle play, but because we made it look like "Power O" the defense was set to fill the B gap like normal, but we stretched it outside and walled them off easily with Norris, A.Davis, and V.Davis after hitting the C gap because they were slowed by the fake.





Unfortunately, we continue to run "Power O" (pull Iupati into right B gap and have Gore follow) even when it's clear that the defense knows we're going to run it most of the time. They just stuff that gap by squeezing Rachal and Davis, while keeping the edge contained. Sometimes it works for us, most of the time it doesn't. Almost all of our best run plays are built on the predictable failure of this play.

Here's the play with the Saints failing outside contain:



You can see just how filled that B gap is. It's almost always like that.

This next one is how the play is supposed to look, only we're running it out of three wide:



It's successful because the box isn't stacked to stuff it due to the pass formation.

I'm not going to be able to find you video of the many stuffs we've seen. My point is that we need to mix up the run game more. We are way too predictable and it's absurd. Again, this is on the coaches, not Gore.

I agree with you that we need to do a better job of getting the ball to our other weapons. I mean... you want to do that if you're building around Gore or not. It's just basic football. We just have terrible coaches and terrible blocking. We had a couple games with Troy where he was able to extend plays in spite of the o-line and coaching and improvise to get the ball our other play makers. We won those games, right?

Broncos Game

Total Offensive Touches: 54

Gore's Touches: 30

56%

Rams Game

Total Offensive Touches: 43

Gore's Touches: 25

58%

So, your theory that giving Gore around 60% of the offenses touches being bad is obviously wrong, right?

Well, not so much. The point is that you can still spread the ball around (historically well in the game against the Rams) and still get Gore a high percentage of touches. Troy Smith was just able to overcome the limitations of the o-line and the coaching staff by extending plays with his legs and improvising.

The problem is the coaching and the o-line. We can't be consistent with our game plan if we can't run or pass block and our coaches are being predictable.

Not Gore's fault.

Where did you find such nice HD videos?
  • Wodwo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,104
Originally posted by hubbyt:


Where did you find such nice HD videos?



I just take my time looking around Youtube until I find good ones. It's just impossible to really see how a play unfolds unless the video is good quality.
Originally posted by TDNiners:
that if your offensive game plan centered around Gore 99% of the time the 49ers will lose.

Gore is not in the mold of other famous 49er backs. He is not explosive, one dimensional, and can't create his own holes. He is OK. Not a superstar. He is not a threat to take it all the way. There is no fear.

I rather have the offensive game plan center around Davis, Walker, Crabtree.
Brian Westbrook would be better compliment to Davis, Walker, Crabtree than Gore.

Gore is not a threat. Defense are jumping for joy every time we give it or pass it to Gore.

If we didn't insist of feeding Gore for 5 years, we would have passing by now.

You can almost here the collective "Oh no!" from 49er fans everytime Gore touches the ball.

OMG! It's heresy! Personally, five years of watching Frank take the ball and run into Baas' ass for no gain is enough for me. Everyone agrees A. Smith sucks now. Can we also agree that we are never going to win handing the ball to Frank up the middle either?

Frank is good, but he can't carry a team like O. J. did (he's guilty) or Jim Brown in the old days. He has to be one of several offensive weapons. Everyone thought we had them in Crabtree and Davis, but...apparently not.