Lacking enthusiam about Troy Smith

Originally posted by dj43:
I saw something things I liked a lot, and other things that were not acceptable but am willing to write them off to lack of practice time.

My optimism is tempered by the reality that Denver is a bad team that had some playmakers out with injuries. If Troy can come back and win against a good Rams defense, then my level of enthusiasm will increase substantially.

Here is something I find interesting: Alex came to the 49ers with a very exciting college resume of running a creative and highly productive offense, and he was immediately dumped into a situation where he was coached to do almost the mirror opposite of what he did in college. RESULT: A mechanical QB that was no longer doing any of the things that made him successful in college.

Troy came from college with a similar pedigree, got a couple of starts in Baltimore then lost his job to Joe Flacco. The interesting thing to me is that Flacco also came from college with a big resume of successful, creative offense but was immersed in a conservative offense that relied on defense to win - a philosophy very much like the Nolan/Sing 49er formula. RESULT: Joe Flacco is now a mechanical QB who has a very unimpressive 84% QB rating and is being called a "flash in the pan" who made it to the playoffs on the strength of the defense, not on his ability.

So here are three QBs who were highly rated coming out of college. The only one who still seems to retain the flash he showed in college is the one who was coached the least in the "game-manager-defense-wins" philosophy. Troy Smith never saw the light of day after Flacco took over. He was able to maintain his playing personality by NOT being the 1st string QB and being molded to change his playing style.

Let's hope Singletary reads this board and leaves Troy alone to play out his personality and not force a square peg into a round hole.

as my mom used to say, "hope with one hand and sh*t in the other and see which one gets full first."

Originally posted by HessianDud:


oh, i totally agree that Troy made some exciting plays. I'm excited by his potential too, but I'm just going to temper my expectations and let Troy continue to surprise me, if he can. I would love nothing more than for him to shock and amaze us and become the difference making QB that we've been waiting for. But some are talking about him like this is already fact, and I think that is driven by him being Not Alex.

Ok, cool.

As for the bold, I think I put a rant in around here somewhere that agrees with you. Just remember the "some" part.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Shaj:

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by LambdaChi49:

Originally posted by BobS:

Originally posted by Jersey9er:

Originally posted by bigwads:
If Alex QB's that game, we win. The defense showed up, which it seldom does. I am sick of the blinders people have.

How many times has our defense allowed points in the last two minutes of the game? Regardless of what Singletary says, it is our defense that hasn't showed up this year.

If Clements falls down after intercepting a pass, we win another game.

If our defense shows up at agains the Eagles we win that game too.

If we get one stop against the Saints-after Bush is out of the game-we win that game too.

I am happy to have T. Smith give it a go, but if people think that he is going to win games when the defense plays like it has with Alex they're in for a rude awakening.

And u know Big Wad I dont see what the big deal is tho. I mean of course we give T. Smith his props, but i mean to not pay attention to the above mentioned is just crazy. For all the things that people said they saw, u can find at least 10 other people that saw the same thing, but look at it from a different perspective.

I mean he kept tons of plays alive, but had our D stepped up like you said in the above game, then we wouldnt be where we are now. I even went a step farther and said I remember over the years, when we beat sorry ass teams, tons of fans made sure to point that out. So it's no different with Denver in my opinion.

They say we are nearing the easiest part of the schedule, so thats a great way to look at it. A. Smith played the hardest part in the first half, and now T. if he is the starter will now play the easiest part. Uncomparable in my opinion.

Like Alex lovers like you have on? Troy Smith had a 115 rating and people have called his performance "average" I have seen Alex Smith get a 75 and people give him a "B grade". It is called "bias", nothing more.

I agree but it goes both ways. When Alex has 90+ ratings..it's "well ratings don't mean much."

We could go back and forth on this all day. We are all part of the same hypocrisy.

But the context makes a huge difference. Alex gets a 90 rating every once in a while having 50 games of experience. Troy, is in his first game with little to none prep and with the play calling highly weighing against his success.

what he said

lol, so the context of it being only one game and entirely inconclusive doesn't get factored in?

we're all excited to see what Troy can do. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. Praising him for not being Alex is just getting sad.

It's the old saying when JTO or Hill were playing:

"We know what these guys can do. They are 5 year journey men backups."

Well, we have come full circle and I will say this:

We know what Alex Smith can do and he hasn't shown to be any better than a 6 year journey man backup.

I think it's fair to get excited and hope Troy can succeed.

Its fair to hope Troy can succeed, and fair to get excited, but I'm just going to temper my excitement until I see more. He seems to have a lot of promise. Unlike the other QB's we've been burned on, he really doesn't have a lot of experience (hasn't bounced around all that much) but he does have a solid pedigree. He seems to have good instincts. He seems to be a playmaker. He's got a good arm, etc. There's a lot to like.

But its one game. I think a lot of people on here are over-excited just because he's not Alex. Whatever, that's a lame reason to be excited, IMO. I'm gonna try to be excited about Troy Smith, if he continues to warrant it, and not be excited about Not Alex Smith.

No way! I'm going to be overexcited when any QB comes in and has a chance to see if he can play in the NFL. I'm over excited, not because he's not Alex Smith, because he's not a QB we have already tried.

I'm excited because we haven't had an all around QB since Garcia.

JTO had the arm.
Hill had leadership/mobility.
Alex had the safeness.
Troy appears to have a little bit of all three*

*yes he was safe for almost the entire game

who the heck wants wants "safeness" in a QB? How about accuracy instead? Alex can take his "safeness" to another team and see how much they value it.

Originally posted by HessianDud:


as my mom used to say, "hope with one hand and sh*t in the other and see which one gets full first."

If I wasn't already in a 12 year loving committed relationship with another woman, I'd want to make sweet passionate love with your mother.

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by HessianDud:


as my mom used to say, "hope with one hand and sh*t in the other and see which one gets full first."

If I wasn't already in a 12 year loving committed relationship with another woman, I'd want to make sweet passionate love with your mother.

you're not my dad and I don't have to listen to you!

Originally posted by dj43:
I saw something things I liked a lot, and other things that were not acceptable but am willing to write them off to lack of practice time.

My optimism is tempered by the reality that Denver is a bad team that had some playmakers out with injuries. If Troy can come back and win against a good Rams defense, then my level of enthusiasm will increase substantially.

Here is something I find interesting: Alex came to the 49ers with a very exciting college resume of running a creative and highly productive offense, and he was immediately dumped into a situation where he was coached to do almost the mirror opposite of what he did in college. RESULT: A mechanical QB that was no longer doing any of the things that made him successful in college.

Troy came from college with a similar pedigree, got a couple of starts in Baltimore then lost his job to Joe Flacco. The interesting thing to me is that Flacco also came from college with a big resume of successful, creative offense but was immersed in a conservative offense that relied on defense to win - a philosophy very much like the Nolan/Sing 49er formula. RESULT: Joe Flacco is now a mechanical QB who has a very unimpressive 84% QB rating and is being called a "flash in the pan" who made it to the playoffs on the strength of the defense, not on his ability.

So here are three QBs who were highly rated coming out of college. The only one who still seems to retain the flash he showed in college is the one who was coached the least in the "game-manager-defense-wins" philosophy. Troy Smith never saw the light of day after Flacco took over. He was able to maintain his playing personality by NOT being the 1st string QB and being molded to change his playing style.

Let's hope Singletary reads this board and leaves Troy alone to play out his personality and not force a square peg into a round hole.

Joe Flacco has 10 TDs to 6 INTs.

For his career, he has 45TD to 30INTs.

In his rookie year, he had 14TD to 12 INT.



Most QB's you CAN compare Alex Smith to are no longer in the league or are career backups. Joe has not failed under the type of situation you are talking about whereas Alex has. Alex has ONLY succeeded under a specific situation. Maybe Tommie Frazier got a raw deal because the team he went to didn't run the Wing T offense.

Sooner or later, the better QB's learn to play solid at the least under unfavorable conditions. Alex has yet to do that.

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by HessianDud:


oh, i totally agree that Troy made some exciting plays. I'm excited by his potential too, but I'm just going to temper my expectations and let Troy continue to surprise me, if he can. I would love nothing more than for him to shock and amaze us and become the difference making QB that we've been waiting for. But some are talking about him like this is already fact, and I think that is driven by him being Not Alex.

Ok, cool.

As for the bold, I think I put a rant in around here somewhere that agrees with you. Just remember the "some" part.

haha. You know, one of the terrible things about discussing the QB in Niner Talk is that we all put each other into two camps: "Alex Lovers" and "Alex Haters" with no grey area in between, when the fact is that a lot of posters (I doubt the majority, but a lot) really do have a reasoned approach to thinking about the QB. Its impossible to show patience with anything without it devolving one way or the other.

Originally posted by Shaj:

who the heck wants wants "safeness" in a QB? How about accuracy instead? Alex can take his "safeness" to another team and see how much they value it.

Me?

I don't want them stuck in safe mode or even safe most of the time... I just want them to be able to turn it on when we need them to.

See Brett Favre on final pass of championship game vs. Saints.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

you're not my dad and I don't have to listen to you!

You will if you know what's good for you. Boy.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by HessianDud:


oh, i totally agree that Troy made some exciting plays. I'm excited by his potential too, but I'm just going to temper my expectations and let Troy continue to surprise me, if he can. I would love nothing more than for him to shock and amaze us and become the difference making QB that we've been waiting for. But some are talking about him like this is already fact, and I think that is driven by him being Not Alex.

Ok, cool.

As for the bold, I think I put a rant in around here somewhere that agrees with you. Just remember the "some" part.

haha. You know, one of the terrible things about discussing the QB in Niner Talk is that we all put each other into two camps: "Alex Lovers" and "Alex Haters" with no grey area in between, when the fact is that a lot of posters (I doubt the majority, but a lot) really do have a reasoned approach to thinking about the QB. Its impossible to show patience with anything without it devolving one way or the other.

No, we put ourselves in these two camps: we want a productive QB, the QB is fine but he needs help.

Believe me, if Troy doesn't perform well, then Alex Haters won't be happy with him either because it will be clear that the QB who can help this team win is not on the roster.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by dj43:
I saw something things I liked a lot, and other things that were not acceptable but am willing to write them off to lack of practice time.

My optimism is tempered by the reality that Denver is a bad team that had some playmakers out with injuries. If Troy can come back and win against a good Rams defense, then my level of enthusiasm will increase substantially.

Here is something I find interesting: Alex came to the 49ers with a very exciting college resume of running a creative and highly productive offense, and he was immediately dumped into a situation where he was coached to do almost the mirror opposite of what he did in college. RESULT: A mechanical QB that was no longer doing any of the things that made him successful in college.

Troy came from college with a similar pedigree, got a couple of starts in Baltimore then lost his job to Joe Flacco. The interesting thing to me is that Flacco also came from college with a big resume of successful, creative offense but was immersed in a conservative offense that relied on defense to win - a philosophy very much like the Nolan/Sing 49er formula. RESULT: Joe Flacco is now a mechanical QB who has a very unimpressive 84% QB rating and is being called a "flash in the pan" who made it to the playoffs on the strength of the defense, not on his ability.

So here are three QBs who were highly rated coming out of college. The only one who still seems to retain the flash he showed in college is the one who was coached the least in the "game-manager-defense-wins" philosophy. Troy Smith never saw the light of day after Flacco took over. He was able to maintain his playing personality by NOT being the 1st string QB and being molded to change his playing style.

Let's hope Singletary reads this board and leaves Troy alone to play out his personality and not force a square peg into a round hole.

as my mom used to say, "hope with one hand and sh*t in the other and see which one gets full first."

Your MOM said that?

If my Dad had said that my Mom would have slapped him? And Dad would have slapped her back...and that is how the fight started. j/k

Originally posted by Shaj:


who the heck wants wants "safeness" in a QB? How about accuracy instead? Alex can take his "safeness" to another team and see how much they value it.

Uhm.... I'd like to introduce you to our current HC... Mike Singletary? He always emphasizes and demands safeness from his QBs....

ooops... did I say always? Well not always. Being risky is fine with him only when it works favorably and helps to save his job... which in all likelihood is lost anyway.

Originally posted by Joecool:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by Wodwo:

Originally posted by HessianDud:


oh, i totally agree that Troy made some exciting plays. I'm excited by his potential too, but I'm just going to temper my expectations and let Troy continue to surprise me, if he can. I would love nothing more than for him to shock and amaze us and become the difference making QB that we've been waiting for. But some are talking about him like this is already fact, and I think that is driven by him being Not Alex.

Ok, cool.

As for the bold, I think I put a rant in around here somewhere that agrees with you. Just remember the "some" part.

haha. You know, one of the terrible things about discussing the QB in Niner Talk is that we all put each other into two camps: "Alex Lovers" and "Alex Haters" with no grey area in between, when the fact is that a lot of posters (I doubt the majority, but a lot) really do have a reasoned approach to thinking about the QB. Its impossible to show patience with anything without it devolving one way or the other.

No, we put ourselves in these two camps: we want a productive QB, the QB is fine but he needs help.

Believe me, if Troy doesn't perform well, then Alex Haters won't be happy with him either because it will be clear that the QB who can help this team win is not on the roster.

if we had a truly reasonable discussion about the QB, it would begin by everyone admitting that Alex's time here is done, its in the past, and no one should use him as a lens through which to view the team.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by dj43:
I saw something things I liked a lot, and other things that were not acceptable but am willing to write them off to lack of practice time.

My optimism is tempered by the reality that Denver is a bad team that had some playmakers out with injuries. If Troy can come back and win against a good Rams defense, then my level of enthusiasm will increase substantially.

Here is something I find interesting: Alex came to the 49ers with a very exciting college resume of running a creative and highly productive offense, and he was immediately dumped into a situation where he was coached to do almost the mirror opposite of what he did in college. RESULT: A mechanical QB that was no longer doing any of the things that made him successful in college.

Troy came from college with a similar pedigree, got a couple of starts in Baltimore then lost his job to Joe Flacco. The interesting thing to me is that Flacco also came from college with a big resume of successful, creative offense but was immersed in a conservative offense that relied on defense to win - a philosophy very much like the Nolan/Sing 49er formula. RESULT: Joe Flacco is now a mechanical QB who has a very unimpressive 84% QB rating and is being called a "flash in the pan" who made it to the playoffs on the strength of the defense, not on his ability.

So here are three QBs who were highly rated coming out of college. The only one who still seems to retain the flash he showed in college is the one who was coached the least in the "game-manager-defense-wins" philosophy. Troy Smith never saw the light of day after Flacco took over. He was able to maintain his playing personality by NOT being the 1st string QB and being molded to change his playing style.

Let's hope Singletary reads this board and leaves Troy alone to play out his personality and not force a square peg into a round hole.

as my mom used to say, "hope with one hand and sh*t in the other and see which one gets full first."

Your MOM said that?

If my Dad had said that my Mom would have slapped him? And Dad would have slapped her back...and that is how the fight started. j/k

I come from a very coarse household.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

if we had a truly reasonable discussion about the QB, it would begin by everyone admitting that Alex's time here is done, its in the past, and no one should use him as a lens through which to view the team.

I could only agree that his time is "close" to being done here. That's as far as anyone should reasonably take it though. We KNOW that David Carr would be gone had we two healthy Smiths. So Carr will be gone in 2011... we don't really know if Troy will show enough to be on the roster at all... same for Alex. So it could very well be that Troy and Alex battle for the starting job in 2011 while a top rookie QB waits. Or that either Alex or Troy remain in SF and battle a rookie for the starting job. Or that Troy fails quickly, and Alex steps in and plays well enough to garner a contract from SF.

Essentially... we don't know jack yet about where either QB will be in the immediate future.