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The NFL's # 1 Defense Thread

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.
Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.
Originally posted by dj43:
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You nailed it. That "peace of mind" can make a world of difference for not only the QB but the QB coach and OC. They can literally say, "Hey, we know you are going to make mistakes but hang in there and just grow...this defense and ST's will give you plenty of opportunities a game to grow! Just relax..."

Now, picture Smith, constantly running for his life, having such a poor o-line he's been trained all offseason to get rid of the ball under three seconds (contrary to Kolb who had seven seconds on his first TD throw), a running game that is predictably defended against and a defense that is constantly chewing up the clock b/c they can't get off the field, generates zero TO's and pressure on the opposing QB and ALWAYS fails in the clutch putting even more pressure on Smith and the offense despite all the changes along the o-line, swinging doors of OC's and philosphies, rookies, #1 overall pick pressure, defensive-minded, inexperienced rookie HC's cramming "conservative" down his throat, etc. Alex Smith is and has been in the worst possible position to grow up as an NFL QB with the worst possible organization to play for. Many saw Hill as an equal to Smith on many levels but even in Detroit, he's doing way better there then here...Dahl, Peterson, Mr. Spincycle, etc....the list goes on and on of players who leave and play better.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

[ Edited by Joecool on Oct 13, 2010 at 09:21:24 ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

How many of our turnovers come in the fourth quarter when we are losing???
Originally posted by tn9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

How many of our turnovers come in the fourth quarter when we are losing???

I don't know. But you play a game giving the other team 4 more possessions than your own team along with some of those being guaranteed FGs due to where you gave them the ball and odds are, they score more points than you.

Turnovers is the strongest correlation for teams winning and losing. I think it's fair to say that we really can't judge the defense until the offense fixes it's turnover issues. Yes, they aren't a great defense and most teams don't have a great defense. Even if a team has a great defense, it will lose more often then win if the offense is turning the ball over 4+ times per game.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by tn9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

How many of our turnovers come in the fourth quarter when we are losing???

I don't know. But you play a game giving the other team 4 more possessions than your own team along with some of those being guaranteed FGs due to where you gave them the ball and odds are, they score more points than you.

Turnovers is the strongest correlation for teams winning and losing. I think it's fair to say that we really can't judge the defense until the offense fixes it's turnover issues. Yes, they aren't a great defense and most teams don't have a great defense. Even if a team has a great defense, it will lose more often then win if the offense is turning the ball over 4+ times per game.

I don't think ANYONE is dismissing the correlation between TO's and losing. it's highly documented. But so is the TO Ratio. That means if the defense isn't generating TO's, the TO's by the offense can be even more costly which is the case with us. What you are also ignoring is the fact that, like the poster noted, how many are in the 4th quarter b/c we are heavily down and are pressing to score desperate TD's. The final piece, like I highlighted earlier is how many of these TO's actually put the defense's back against the wall and lead to easy points. In the Philly game it was "maybe" one and even that was questionable. To truly evaluate the effects of all of the TO's on offense so far, we'd need to do that same analysis for all of the games. My guess would be that only a handful of the TO's actually lead to easy points and most were nothing more then the equivalent of a punt (of which many would be after good drives by the offense and deep into the oppositions territory). We all need to look at the whole picture...not just part of it.

To illustrate, while we have had 15 TOs on offense (9 INT's and 6 Fumbles) this is the second most in the NFL, the defense has only generated 5 itself which is 3rd worse. TO ratio is the key here.

[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 13, 2010 at 09:49:23 ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by tn9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

How many of our turnovers come in the fourth quarter when we are losing???

I don't know. But you play a game giving the other team 4 more possessions than your own team along with some of those being guaranteed FGs due to where you gave them the ball and odds are, they score more points than you.

Turnovers is the strongest correlation for teams winning and losing. I think it's fair to say that we really can't judge the defense until the offense fixes it's turnover issues. Yes, they aren't a great defense and most teams don't have a great defense. Even if a team has a great defense, it will lose more often then win if the offense is turning the ball over 4+ times per game.

I don't think ANYONE is dismissing the correlation between TO's and losing. it's highly documented. But so is the TO Ratio. That means if the defense isn't generating TO's, the TO's by the offense can be even more costly which is the case with us. What you are also ignoring is the fact that, like the poster noted, how many are in the 4th quarter b/c we are heavily down and are pressing to score desperate TD's. The final piece, like I highlighted earlier is how many of these TO's actually put the defense's back against the wall and lead to easy points. In the Philly game it was "maybe" one and even that was questionable. To truly evaluate the effects of all of the TO's on offense so far, we'd need to do that same analysis for all of the games. My guess would be that only a handful of the TO's actually lead to easy points and most were nothing more then the equivalent of a punt (of which many would be after good drives by the offense and deep into the oppositions territory). We all need to look at the whole picture...not just part of it.

Now equate offensive rhythm, tempo, overall team mentality, and most important of all, possible points we could have had.

I just don't think you can accurately evaluate anything about this team until we stop giving the opposition possessions that should be ours to score with. We are not just bad, we could possibly be setting a record at this pace.

The next fact to improvement is to determine what is happening and a lot of it is happening from the QB position. Yes, not all were his fault but it's still near the league worst if you take out even 3 of the interceptions. But let us talk about the 3 or 4 good drives he's had over the numerous terrible ones instead and say that the defense isn't helping.

Point is, this team will not win even 6 games if it had a great defense and turned the ball over as much as it does.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by tn9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

How many of our turnovers come in the fourth quarter when we are losing???

I don't know. But you play a game giving the other team 4 more possessions than your own team along with some of those being guaranteed FGs due to where you gave them the ball and odds are, they score more points than you.

Turnovers is the strongest correlation for teams winning and losing. I think it's fair to say that we really can't judge the defense until the offense fixes it's turnover issues. Yes, they aren't a great defense and most teams don't have a great defense. Even if a team has a great defense, it will lose more often then win if the offense is turning the ball over 4+ times per game.

I don't think ANYONE is dismissing the correlation between TO's and losing. it's highly documented. But so is the TO Ratio. That means if the defense isn't generating TO's, the TO's by the offense can be even more costly which is the case with us. What you are also ignoring is the fact that, like the poster noted, how many are in the 4th quarter b/c we are heavily down and are pressing to score desperate TD's. The final piece, like I highlighted earlier is how many of these TO's actually put the defense's back against the wall and lead to easy points. In the Philly game it was "maybe" one and even that was questionable. To truly evaluate the effects of all of the TO's on offense so far, we'd need to do that same analysis for all of the games. My guess would be that only a handful of the TO's actually lead to easy points and most were nothing more then the equivalent of a punt (of which many would be after good drives by the offense and deep into the oppositions territory). We all need to look at the whole picture...not just part of it.

Now equate offensive rhythm, tempo, overall team mentality, and most important of all, possible points we could have had.

I just don't think you can accurately evaluate anything about this team until we stop giving the opposition possessions that should be ours to score with. We are not just bad, we could possibly be setting a record at this pace.

The next fact to improvement is to determine what is happening and a lot of it is happening from the QB position. Yes, not all were his fault but it's still near the league worst if you take out even 3 of the interceptions. But let us talk about the 3 or 4 good drives he's had over the numerous terrible ones instead and say that the defense isn't helping.

Point is, this team will not win even 6 games if it had a great defense and turned the ball over as much as it does.
You keep missing the point about defense.

The defense, and where they allow the offense to start, has a huge roll in what follows. In the case of the 49ers offense, they have had the worst average starting position OF ANY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE, according to Al Michaels Sunday night. THE WORST STARTING POSITION IN THE LEAGUE. That is NOT Alex Smith's fault. That is clearly a defense that is not playing well...and it puts a GREAT deal more pressure on an offense that has two rookies in the OL along with an inexperienced center that have made Alex Smith the most "hurried" QB in the league.

In contrast, Sanchez has had the BEST starting position of any team in the league.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by tn9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

How many of our turnovers come in the fourth quarter when we are losing???

I don't know. But you play a game giving the other team 4 more possessions than your own team along with some of those being guaranteed FGs due to where you gave them the ball and odds are, they score more points than you.

Turnovers is the strongest correlation for teams winning and losing. I think it's fair to say that we really can't judge the defense until the offense fixes it's turnover issues. Yes, they aren't a great defense and most teams don't have a great defense. Even if a team has a great defense, it will lose more often then win if the offense is turning the ball over 4+ times per game.

I don't think ANYONE is dismissing the correlation between TO's and losing. it's highly documented. But so is the TO Ratio. That means if the defense isn't generating TO's, the TO's by the offense can be even more costly which is the case with us. What you are also ignoring is the fact that, like the poster noted, how many are in the 4th quarter b/c we are heavily down and are pressing to score desperate TD's. The final piece, like I highlighted earlier is how many of these TO's actually put the defense's back against the wall and lead to easy points. In the Philly game it was "maybe" one and even that was questionable. To truly evaluate the effects of all of the TO's on offense so far, we'd need to do that same analysis for all of the games. My guess would be that only a handful of the TO's actually lead to easy points and most were nothing more then the equivalent of a punt (of which many would be after good drives by the offense and deep into the oppositions territory). We all need to look at the whole picture...not just part of it.

Now equate offensive rhythm, tempo, overall team mentality, and most important of all, possible points we could have had.

I just don't think you can accurately evaluate anything about this team until we stop giving the opposition possessions that should be ours to score with. We are not just bad, we could possibly be setting a record at this pace.

The next fact to improvement is to determine what is happening and a lot of it is happening from the QB position. Yes, not all were his fault but it's still near the league worst if you take out even 3 of the interceptions. But let us talk about the 3 or 4 good drives he's had over the numerous terrible ones instead and say that the defense isn't helping.

Point is, this team will not win even 6 games if it had a great defense and turned the ball over as much as it does.

The problem with you Joe is that you REFUSE to believe that opposing defenses force alot of the turnovers that you are crying about.

Here's a news flash for you: Opposing teams have professional players and coachs just the same as we do.

IF the 49ers ever did play a perfect game, you will come on here and say it was a fluke or we played a suckazz team and you want to see them do 5 times in a row before you give credit to Alex and company.

Your just a hater who's always trying to justify your thinking by getting someone else to agree with you.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Now equate offensive rhythm, tempo, overall team mentality, and most important of all, possible points we could have had.

I just don't think you can accurately evaluate anything about this team until we stop giving the opposition possessions that should be ours to score with. We are not just bad, we could possibly be setting a record at this pace.

The next fact to improvement is to determine what is happening and a lot of it is happening from the QB position. Yes, not all were his fault but it's still near the league worst if you take out even 3 of the interceptions. But let us talk about the 3 or 4 good drives he's had over the numerous terrible ones instead and say that the defense isn't helping.

Point is, this team will not win even 6 games if it had a great defense and turned the ball over as much as it does.

I certainly don't disagree with you but it seems like you continue to look only at one side of the coin here.

While we have had 15 TOs on offense (9 INT's and 6 Fumbles) this is the second most in the NFL, the defense has only generated 5 itself which is 3rd worse. TO ratio is the key here.

It's truly a combination of many things...the offense turning the ball over esp. at critical times and the defense not generating any TO's of it's own and LOSING the game at critical times, many of those times after the offense did their part and scored. The same thing you say about the offense can be said about the defense...allowing the opposiion to go 75 yards immdiately after, yet again, an opening drive TD is just as devastating as an AS fumble return for a TD. It kills momentum AND it puts points on the board for the other team.

[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 13, 2010 at 10:38:50 ]
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by tn9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

How many of our turnovers come in the fourth quarter when we are losing???

I don't know. But you play a game giving the other team 4 more possessions than your own team along with some of those being guaranteed FGs due to where you gave them the ball and odds are, they score more points than you.

Turnovers is the strongest correlation for teams winning and losing. I think it's fair to say that we really can't judge the defense until the offense fixes it's turnover issues. Yes, they aren't a great defense and most teams don't have a great defense. Even if a team has a great defense, it will lose more often then win if the offense is turning the ball over 4+ times per game.

I don't think ANYONE is dismissing the correlation between TO's and losing. it's highly documented. But so is the TO Ratio. That means if the defense isn't generating TO's, the TO's by the offense can be even more costly which is the case with us. What you are also ignoring is the fact that, like the poster noted, how many are in the 4th quarter b/c we are heavily down and are pressing to score desperate TD's. The final piece, like I highlighted earlier is how many of these TO's actually put the defense's back against the wall and lead to easy points. In the Philly game it was "maybe" one and even that was questionable. To truly evaluate the effects of all of the TO's on offense so far, we'd need to do that same analysis for all of the games. My guess would be that only a handful of the TO's actually lead to easy points and most were nothing more then the equivalent of a punt (of which many would be after good drives by the offense and deep into the oppositions territory). We all need to look at the whole picture...not just part of it.

Now equate offensive rhythm, tempo, overall team mentality, and most important of all, possible points we could have had.

I just don't think you can accurately evaluate anything about this team until we stop giving the opposition possessions that should be ours to score with. We are not just bad, we could possibly be setting a record at this pace.

The next fact to improvement is to determine what is happening and a lot of it is happening from the QB position. Yes, not all were his fault but it's still near the league worst if you take out even 3 of the interceptions. But let us talk about the 3 or 4 good drives he's had over the numerous terrible ones instead and say that the defense isn't helping.

Point is, this team will not win even 6 games if it had a great defense and turned the ball over as much as it does.
You keep missing the point about defense.

The defense, and where they allow the offense to start, has a huge roll in what follows. In the case of the 49ers offense, they have had the worst average starting position OF ANY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE, according to Al Michaels Sunday night. THE WORST STARTING POSITION IN THE LEAGUE. That is NOT Alex Smith's fault. That is clearly a defense that is not playing well...and it puts a GREAT deal more pressure on an offense that has two rookies in the OL along with an inexperienced center that have made Alex Smith the most "hurried" QB in the league.

In contrast, Sanchez has had the BEST starting position of any team in the league.

I know what you are saying but that has very little, if nothing at all, to do with the offense turning the ball over. You are pointing our minor things but want to overlook the most important aspect of our play that is causing us to lose. Until we correct the major errors, the minor things won't matter.

Our defense can stop them on 3 and outs which was what we did to PHI on their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th drives but it all doesn't matter if we give them the ball back.

The defense isn't great like most teams' defenses but you give me an average defense in the NFL and I my offense turns the ball over 3+ times per game, than that defense quickly looks like a bad defense.

There's no point trying to fix something when there is a bigger problem that needs to be fixed. You can fix the defense, but what's that going to do, get us 1 more win, maybe 2. We will still have a losing record until our offense stops turning the ball over what could be a record number if they keep it up.
Originally posted by tn9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by tn9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

How many of our turnovers come in the fourth quarter when we are losing???

I don't know. But you play a game giving the other team 4 more possessions than your own team along with some of those being guaranteed FGs due to where you gave them the ball and odds are, they score more points than you.

Turnovers is the strongest correlation for teams winning and losing. I think it's fair to say that we really can't judge the defense until the offense fixes it's turnover issues. Yes, they aren't a great defense and most teams don't have a great defense. Even if a team has a great defense, it will lose more often then win if the offense is turning the ball over 4+ times per game.

I don't think ANYONE is dismissing the correlation between TO's and losing. it's highly documented. But so is the TO Ratio. That means if the defense isn't generating TO's, the TO's by the offense can be even more costly which is the case with us. What you are also ignoring is the fact that, like the poster noted, how many are in the 4th quarter b/c we are heavily down and are pressing to score desperate TD's. The final piece, like I highlighted earlier is how many of these TO's actually put the defense's back against the wall and lead to easy points. In the Philly game it was "maybe" one and even that was questionable. To truly evaluate the effects of all of the TO's on offense so far, we'd need to do that same analysis for all of the games. My guess would be that only a handful of the TO's actually lead to easy points and most were nothing more then the equivalent of a punt (of which many would be after good drives by the offense and deep into the oppositions territory). We all need to look at the whole picture...not just part of it.

Now equate offensive rhythm, tempo, overall team mentality, and most important of all, possible points we could have had.

I just don't think you can accurately evaluate anything about this team until we stop giving the opposition possessions that should be ours to score with. We are not just bad, we could possibly be setting a record at this pace.

The next fact to improvement is to determine what is happening and a lot of it is happening from the QB position. Yes, not all were his fault but it's still near the league worst if you take out even 3 of the interceptions. But let us talk about the 3 or 4 good drives he's had over the numerous terrible ones instead and say that the defense isn't helping.

Point is, this team will not win even 6 games if it had a great defense and turned the ball over as much as it does.

The problem with you Joe is that you REFUSE to believe that opposing defenses force alot of the turnovers that you are crying about.

Here's a news flash for you: Opposing teams have professional players and coachs just the same as we do.

IF the 49ers ever did play a perfect game, you will come on here and say it was a fluke or we played a suckazz team and you want to see them do 5 times in a row before you give credit to Alex and company.

Your just a hater who's always trying to justify your thinking by getting someone else to agree with you.

Really? The problem with you is that you would rather overlook a major issue as to why we are losing. I'm a hater for wanting to wait and see if we can fix a major issue and then evaluating the team before fixing a secondary issue. Maybe you're just a naive person with rose-colored goggles on who thinks our offense hasn't been hurting this team the most.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by tn9er:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by Leathaface:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Did you guys see the Vikings game? Jets scored 29 points but in no way did the Vikings lose that game because of their defense.

They lost because of their QB turned the ball over and thew INT's. The defense held the Jets to 4 FGs into the 3rd quarter but just couldn't hold on much longer. Yes, multiple turnovers game in and game out does affect the defense also.

This!

If that was our team with Alex Smith, 49ers fans would be saying that it was the defense's fault. But if you watch another team's QB make big mistakes and then that teams defense finally give, we say that QB didn't play well and hurt his team the most.

Our defense isn't great, but their goal is to keep it at 17 or under. They kept it to 20 which isn't playing bad when you consider 3 or 4 turnovers by the offense.

Exactly my arguments in the "rewatched the game thread." It's crazy that some people can watch so much football, yet still not know what the f**k they're looking at.

I just don't know why the root cause is getting overlooked. The Defense had near great games against two of the premier offenses in the league. They also frustrated the crap out of Hasselbeck but they can only do so much from the offense giving turnover after turnover.

Key to winning in the NFL.

1. Don't give the other team the ball: we average 3 a game
2. Score more points than them.
3. Keep them from scoring.

#1 is a primary root cause that hurts #'s 2 and 3. The odds to score more points and keeping them from scoring automatically decrease.

Direct cause folks. #'s 2 and 3 happening first don't directly cause more turnovers but more turnovers directly result in a decrease in #2 and #3.

Steelers Philosophy:
1. Keep them from scoring. Get off the field on 3rd downs and give the offense more opportunities to develop a rhythm and stay on the field.
2. Don't give the other team the ball. Generate more turnovers on defense then the offense gives up.
3. Score more points than them. As a result of #1 & #2, #3 is affected.


There are two sides to every coin.

Baltimore has done a pretty good job with the same formula. Their defense gives their offense a short field much of the time. It is an entirely different matter when the offense only has to drive 40 yards to get into red zone versus 60 yards.

Totally, great defenses have helped young QB's grow in confidence...a couple guys come to mind; say Big Ben and now Sanchez. The best scenario for ANY QB coming into the league is to join a team where they have a dominant defense, an oustanding o-line who can pass protect as well as run block and a good running game. I remember when Big Ben came into the league...he only had to throw about a dozen times a game. You could see him grow in confidence each week, throwing more and more KNOWING his defense would get him the ball back and KNOWING he had a great o-line and ground game to rely on. Must be nice...
Solid defense is the best weapon a team can have and a great security blanket for a young QB. As you noted, Ben had that benefit. This year we are seeing Sanchez working with a short field all the time and having little to no pressure on him. He is working behind two Pro Bowl offensive linemen with some very good receivers in a system that has an amazing variety of options. Still, as we saw Monday night, Sanchez makes some bone head throws and misses open receivers. Yet he is able to come back because his defense does not drop very many opportunities to create turnovers. All that would be nice...

The mentality is very important.

You are all mentioning consistent top 5 defenses in the league completely ignoring game after game of 3+ turnovers.

Mark Sanchez has not thrown an interception all year. Their offense is averaging 27 points per game. Their average win margin has been by 9 points. Now, imagine if Sanchez was a part of 12 turnovers. Do you actually think they win the MIN game if they turn the ball over 3 times?

Let's analyze the OL, Defense, and other areas once we stop turning the ball over almost twice as many times as the 2nd worst team in this category.

You are trying to pull out exceptional defenses to overlook a very important factor in winning and losing games. In the long run, if those teams with great defenses turns the ball over nearly 5 times a game, then they lose more than win.

The Ravens Superbowl team would not even be close to winning it if Dilfer and that offense turned the ball over 4+ times per game. Dilfer threw 11 interceptions the entire year that year.

Our losing issue is directly correlated to turnovers, and the offense, not the Defense.

How many of our turnovers come in the fourth quarter when we are losing???

I don't know. But you play a game giving the other team 4 more possessions than your own team along with some of those being guaranteed FGs due to where you gave them the ball and odds are, they score more points than you.

Turnovers is the strongest correlation for teams winning and losing. I think it's fair to say that we really can't judge the defense until the offense fixes it's turnover issues. Yes, they aren't a great defense and most teams don't have a great defense. Even if a team has a great defense, it will lose more often then win if the offense is turning the ball over 4+ times per game.

I don't think ANYONE is dismissing the correlation between TO's and losing. it's highly documented. But so is the TO Ratio. That means if the defense isn't generating TO's, the TO's by the offense can be even more costly which is the case with us. What you are also ignoring is the fact that, like the poster noted, how many are in the 4th quarter b/c we are heavily down and are pressing to score desperate TD's. The final piece, like I highlighted earlier is how many of these TO's actually put the defense's back against the wall and lead to easy points. In the Philly game it was "maybe" one and even that was questionable. To truly evaluate the effects of all of the TO's on offense so far, we'd need to do that same analysis for all of the games. My guess would be that only a handful of the TO's actually lead to easy points and most were nothing more then the equivalent of a punt (of which many would be after good drives by the offense and deep into the oppositions territory). We all need to look at the whole picture...not just part of it.

Now equate offensive rhythm, tempo, overall team mentality, and most important of all, possible points we could have had.

I just don't think you can accurately evaluate anything about this team until we stop giving the opposition possessions that should be ours to score with. We are not just bad, we could possibly be setting a record at this pace.

The next fact to improvement is to determine what is happening and a lot of it is happening from the QB position. Yes, not all were his fault but it's still near the league worst if you take out even 3 of the interceptions. But let us talk about the 3 or 4 good drives he's had over the numerous terrible ones instead and say that the defense isn't helping.

Point is, this team will not win even 6 games if it had a great defense and turned the ball over as much as it does.
You keep missing the point about defense.

The defense, and where they allow the offense to start, has a huge roll in what follows. In the case of the 49ers offense, they have had the worst average starting position OF ANY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE, according to Al Michaels Sunday night. THE WORST STARTING POSITION IN THE LEAGUE. That is NOT Alex Smith's fault. That is clearly a defense that is not playing well...and it puts a GREAT deal more pressure on an offense that has two rookies in the OL along with an inexperienced center that have made Alex Smith the most "hurried" QB in the league.

In contrast, Sanchez has had the BEST starting position of any team in the league.

I know what you are saying but that has very little, if nothing at all, to do with the offense turning the ball over. You are pointing our minor things but want to overlook the most important aspect of our play that is causing us to lose. Until we correct the major errors, the minor things won't matter.

Our defense can stop them on 3 and outs which was what we did to PHI on their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th drives but it all doesn't matter if we give them the ball back.

The defense isn't great like most teams' defenses but you give me an average defense in the NFL and I my offense turns the ball over 3+ times per game, than that defense quickly looks like a bad defense.

There's no point trying to fix something when there is a bigger problem that needs to be fixed. You can fix the defense, but what's that going to do, get us 1 more win, maybe 2. We will still have a losing record until our offense stops turning the ball over what could be a record number if they keep it up.

I give up. You REFUSE to acknowledge that any thing other than Alex Smith is causing this team to lose.

Answer this one question; how is Alex Smith responsible for the worst starting position in the league?

The way I see it, it is a dual role of poor ST play and a defense that can't stop the other team OR get turnovers. How many times has the 49er defense taken the ball away from an opponent?