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Coaching Wasn't Nearly as Bad as You Think!

NCommand,

As you recall, one of last year's running jokes about Raye was "we want second half Jimmy Raye calling the first half." He has a decent enough track record for making adjustments. As for last weekend's game, he seemed to show up with a halfway decent game plan until everything went to pot. And, as has been explained in this thread, things went pear shaped largely because of poor execution on the field.
Originally posted by BubbaParisMVP:
NCommand,

As you recall, one of last year's running jokes about Raye was "we want second half Jimmy Raye calling the first half." He has a decent enough track record for making adjustments. As for last weekend's game, he seemed to show up with a halfway decent game plan until everything went to pot. And, as has been explained in this thread, things went pear shaped largely because of poor execution on the field.

That's a great line! I don't consider an OC having to change to a spread last year b/c we're down 4 TD's "making an adjustment." This is something we HAD to do last year, eve with Shaun Hill making a couple miracle comebacks in the 4th for us to squeak out a win. This is all philosophy and poor coaching. That's not to dismiss the obvious piss poor execution by the players; not at all. But a good coach puts his best players in the best position to succeed. We don't have that kind of coaching. Period. 4th and an inch? You QB sneak. You want a sneak pass off the line on 4th down when everyone is expecting a run? Good call but you use a player who has hands and NOT the player with the worst documented hands on the team. Period. I can go on for hours about how we consistently get outcoached, good players continue to be put in bad situations and talent rarely is used properly. But sadly, all you need to do is watch the opponents to see the glaring differences between an NFL coaching staff with common sense and ours. Of the aforementioned issues I noted, at the end of the day, none of these issues have been fixed in any way from 2009 and a whole off-season to fix them. It's not like the coaching staff didn't know what our GLARING weaknesses were...they had their work cut out for them and even the most ignorant and uneducated fan can spot them. This year...2010...is all about the coaching. I can't stress that enough.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by BubbaParisMVP:
NCommand,

As you recall, one of last year's running jokes about Raye was "we want second half Jimmy Raye calling the first half." He has a decent enough track record for making adjustments. As for last weekend's game, he seemed to show up with a halfway decent game plan until everything went to pot. And, as has been explained in this thread, things went pear shaped largely because of poor execution on the field.

That's a great line! I don't consider an OC having to change to a spread last year b/c we're down 4 TD's "making an adjustment." This is something we HAD to do last year, eve with Shaun Hill making a couple miracle comebacks in the 4th for us to squeak out a win. This is all philosophy and poor coaching. That's not to dismiss the obvious piss poor execution by the players; not at all. But a good coach puts his best players in the best position to succeed. We don't have that kind of coaching. Period. 4th and an inch? You QB sneak. You want a sneak pass off the line on 4th down when everyone is expecting a run? Good call but you use a player who has hands and NOT the player with the worst documented hands on the team. Period. I can go on for hours about how we consistently get outcoached, good players continue to be put in bad situations and talent rarely is used properly. But sadly, all you need to do is watch the opponents to see the glaring differences between an NFL coaching staff with common sense and ours. Of the aforementioned issues I noted, at the end of the day, none of these issues have been fixed in any way from 2009 and a whole off-season to fix them. It's not like the coaching staff didn't know what our GLARING weaknesses were...they had their work cut out for them and even the most ignorant and uneducated fan can spot them. This year...2010...is all about the coaching. I can't stress that enough.

I agree with most of these points and definitely with poor coaching , poor adjustments , lack of creativity , and downright stubborness. Then I have to add into the mix that players once again didn't execute too. It was ugly and I hope I don't have to see it again this season ...... once was enough.
Originally posted by 49ERGUY:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by BubbaParisMVP:
NCommand,

As you recall, one of last year's running jokes about Raye was "we want second half Jimmy Raye calling the first half." He has a decent enough track record for making adjustments. As for last weekend's game, he seemed to show up with a halfway decent game plan until everything went to pot. And, as has been explained in this thread, things went pear shaped largely because of poor execution on the field.

That's a great line! I don't consider an OC having to change to a spread last year b/c we're down 4 TD's "making an adjustment." This is something we HAD to do last year, eve with Shaun Hill making a couple miracle comebacks in the 4th for us to squeak out a win. This is all philosophy and poor coaching. That's not to dismiss the obvious piss poor execution by the players; not at all. But a good coach puts his best players in the best position to succeed. We don't have that kind of coaching. Period. 4th and an inch? You QB sneak. You want a sneak pass off the line on 4th down when everyone is expecting a run? Good call but you use a player who has hands and NOT the player with the worst documented hands on the team. Period. I can go on for hours about how we consistently get outcoached, good players continue to be put in bad situations and talent rarely is used properly. But sadly, all you need to do is watch the opponents to see the glaring differences between an NFL coaching staff with common sense and ours. Of the aforementioned issues I noted, at the end of the day, none of these issues have been fixed in any way from 2009 and a whole off-season to fix them. It's not like the coaching staff didn't know what our GLARING weaknesses were...they had their work cut out for them and even the most ignorant and uneducated fan can spot them. This year...2010...is all about the coaching. I can't stress that enough.

I agree with most of these points and definitely with poor coaching , poor adjustments , lack of creativity , and downright stubborness. Then I have to add into the mix that players once again didn't execute too. It was ugly and I hope I don't have to see it again this season ...... once was enough.

Seriously!!! Let's hope all these issues was just carry-over from last season and all these issues HAVE been corrected. Unfortunately, I don't think any of them have been and I've been very critical of this coaching staff from day one while trying to remain cautiously optimistic throughout. But the Seattle game was our chance at a "statement game." Well, we made a statement alright
Emotions are high right now, trying to place blame for that mess on any one person is just plain stupid. This was a mess mead by a whole team, and they had better learn to come together and fix it or the consequences could be disastrous. I think they bought into the preseason hype and got themselves punched in the face by a team with nothing to lose and low expectations. Time to rally the troops and get to work on setting things right.
FIRE JIMMY RAYE
I agree that the coaching was not nearly as bad as I think but it was bad. I don't like Alex Smith as a pro football player as I think he should simply be cut but the coaches did not get the plays into him in a timely manner. Also running your fullback up the middle against a team that clearly has no respect for your quarterback was not a smart strategy on 4th down. Alex Smith is the quarterback and as the quarterback he needs to make plays primarily with his arm and it is time to stop babying this guy. Players did not execute on offense and defense when they were put in position to execute and they did not play smart. The 49ers are still playing like a team that loses a lot. Gambling on plays, 1 out of 15 on 3rd down, are things that get you beat over and over but I don't think Smith is good enough and our defense is not good enough across the board. This same Saints team beat us pretty bad a few years ago and we still have question marks about Alex Smith, cornerbacks, and coaching strategy. 3 out of the last 4 teams in the playoffs last season had outstanding quarterbacks. The Jets did not but they had an elite defense. We don't have an elite defense.
  • Roxy
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 256
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
So after I had some time to digest yesterday's complete blowout, I mustard up the courage to rewatch the game. What I found actually made me feel a little better. Yes the playcalling can be predictable. And yes, the communication issues falls squarely on the shoulders of the coaching staff, but the coaches did enough for us to win that game. Let's look at the facts.


We completly dominated most of the first half, starting with the interception on the first play of the game.,

It's not Raye's fault that Smith and Morgan couldn't get the touchdown. Morgan was open. The call worked. Either Smith threw too high or Morgan doesn't have enough body control or both. Put that on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Moran Norris went into backpeddle mode and Smith lobbed him the ball instead of throwing it directly at him. The fact that Norris was so wide open tells me it was a good call. The players didn't execute.

It's not Raye's fault that Smith couldn't get Ginn the ball when he clearly had his man beat downfield. A good throw probably would of resulted in a TD. Once again, thats on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs decided to zig when Smith decided to throw the ball zag which resulted in a pick six.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs couldn't hold on to what was essentially a bad shovel pass from Smith which also resulted in an interception.

Can you really blame Coach Sing that T.Brown wanted to be the hero and bit hard on the double fake from Mike Williams which resulted in a TD? If anything, we know our coaching staff preaches staying within your assignment. No way Sing or Manusky agrees a cb should be jumping a route before the ball is even in the air.

In fact, the execution was so poor from the players that I didn't even bother mentioning the phantom PI call on Nate. That play kept the drive alive for the Hawks which lead to their first TD. That really was when things started going down hill.

The point is, even though the coaches didn't operate at a very high level, they at least dialed up enough plays that if they would have been properly executed would of resulted in a much closer game and possibly the win. In retrospect, I dont think all is lost. I just think we needed more time in the preseason to build chemistry.

Seriously, look at all the points THE PLAYERS left on the field.

I remember posts like this when Hostler was the OC too...Yes, Raye made some calls that weren't executed correctly and might have worked, but the offense overall is not NFL worthy - the timing, speed, fluidity, and personnel choices (Sorry, Norris is not a 3rd down back or multi-dimensional threat!) are not top tier.

I've said it since he was fired; We should have kept Martz. Singletary riding herd on Martz would have yielded much better results than ol Granpa' Raye.
Originally posted by Roxy:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
So after I had some time to digest yesterday's complete blowout, I mustard up the courage to rewatch the game. What I found actually made me feel a little better. Yes the playcalling can be predictable. And yes, the communication issues falls squarely on the shoulders of the coaching staff, but the coaches did enough for us to win that game. Let's look at the facts.


We completly dominated most of the first half, starting with the interception on the first play of the game.,

It's not Raye's fault that Smith and Morgan couldn't get the touchdown. Morgan was open. The call worked. Either Smith threw too high or Morgan doesn't have enough body control or both. Put that on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Moran Norris went into backpeddle mode and Smith lobbed him the ball instead of throwing it directly at him. The fact that Norris was so wide open tells me it was a good call. The players didn't execute.

It's not Raye's fault that Smith couldn't get Ginn the ball when he clearly had his man beat downfield. A good throw probably would of resulted in a TD. Once again, thats on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs decided to zig when Smith decided to throw the ball zag which resulted in a pick six.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs couldn't hold on to what was essentially a bad shovel pass from Smith which also resulted in an interception.

Can you really blame Coach Sing that T.Brown wanted to be the hero and bit hard on the double fake from Mike Williams which resulted in a TD? If anything, we know our coaching staff preaches staying within your assignment. No way Sing or Manusky agrees a cb should be jumping a route before the ball is even in the air.

In fact, the execution was so poor from the players that I didn't even bother mentioning the phantom PI call on Nate. That play kept the drive alive for the Hawks which lead to their first TD. That really was when things started going down hill.

The point is, even though the coaches didn't operate at a very high level, they at least dialed up enough plays that if they would have been properly executed would of resulted in a much closer game and possibly the win. In retrospect, I dont think all is lost. I just think we needed more time in the preseason to build chemistry.

Seriously, look at all the points THE PLAYERS left on the field.

I remember posts like this when Hostler was the OC too...Yes, Raye made some calls that weren't executed correctly and might have worked, but the offense overall is not NFL worthy - the timing, speed, fluidity, and personnel choices (Sorry, Norris is not a 3rd down back or multi-dimensional threat!) are not top tier.

I've said it since he was fired; We should have kept Martz. Singletary riding herd on Martz would have yielded much better results than ol Granpa' Raye.

Oh, you mean the same OC that nearly made the recently extended VD almost invisible and brought in Just Turnovers to man the QB position? No thanks. It's not that Martz can't be a good OC, it's that the philosophies are so diffrent it never would of worked. We dont have the personnell to be successful in his scheme.

P.S. I also remember posts like this when what's his name got a head coaching job in Greenbay and went on to light it up. Sometimes it is the players.

[ Edited by Oakland-Niner on Sep 14, 2010 at 13:25:12 ]
  • Roxy
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 256
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Roxy:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
So after I had some time to digest yesterday's complete blowout, I mustard up the courage to rewatch the game. What I found actually made me feel a little better. Yes the playcalling can be predictable. And yes, the communication issues falls squarely on the shoulders of the coaching staff, but the coaches did enough for us to win that game. Let's look at the facts.


We completly dominated most of the first half, starting with the interception on the first play of the game.,

It's not Raye's fault that Smith and Morgan couldn't get the touchdown. Morgan was open. The call worked. Either Smith threw too high or Morgan doesn't have enough body control or both. Put that on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Moran Norris went into backpeddle mode and Smith lobbed him the ball instead of throwing it directly at him. The fact that Norris was so wide open tells me it was a good call. The players didn't execute.

It's not Raye's fault that Smith couldn't get Ginn the ball when he clearly had his man beat downfield. A good throw probably would of resulted in a TD. Once again, thats on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs decided to zig when Smith decided to throw the ball zag which resulted in a pick six.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs couldn't hold on to what was essentially a bad shovel pass from Smith which also resulted in an interception.

Can you really blame Coach Sing that T.Brown wanted to be the hero and bit hard on the double fake from Mike Williams which resulted in a TD? If anything, we know our coaching staff preaches staying within your assignment. No way Sing or Manusky agrees a cb should be jumping a route before the ball is even in the air.

In fact, the execution was so poor from the players that I didn't even bother mentioning the phantom PI call on Nate. That play kept the drive alive for the Hawks which lead to their first TD. That really was when things started going down hill.

The point is, even though the coaches didn't operate at a very high level, they at least dialed up enough plays that if they would have been properly executed would of resulted in a much closer game and possibly the win. In retrospect, I dont think all is lost. I just think we needed more time in the preseason to build chemistry.

Seriously, look at all the points THE PLAYERS left on the field.

I remember posts like this when Hostler was the OC too...Yes, Raye made some calls that weren't executed correctly and might have worked, but the offense overall is not NFL worthy - the timing, speed, fluidity, and personnel choices (Sorry, Norris is not a 3rd down back or multi-dimensional threat!) are not top tier.

I've said it since he was fired; We should have kept Martz. Singletary riding herd on Martz would have yielded much better results than ol Granpa' Raye.

Oh, you mean the same OC that nearly made the recently extended VD almost invisible and brought in Just Turnovers to man the QB position? No thanks. It's not that Martz can't be a good OC, it's that the philosophies are so diffrent it never would of worked. We dont have the personnell to be successful in his scheme.

P.S. I also remember posts like this when what's his name got a head coaching job in Greenbay and went on to light it up. Sometimes it is the players.


My argument is that Sing and Matz's philosophies were so different that it WOULD have worked. I think the differing philosophies would have created something much more prolific and effective than Rayes offense - plus Martz is a perfectionist like Walsh, and knew how to keep the offense flowing in all circumstances. He is a highly competent pro, and a little bit whack, but I truly believe the two of them, had they been willing, could have co-created a very good offense. that's my theory, and I guess it doesn't really matter now.

I do absolutely think that Raye is a sub-par coordinator on many levels, from his play calling to his ability to drill the players well and establish repeatable competence and accountability - again, my opinion from what limited information I have gathered. If I'm right, this doesn't bode well for our team since Sing is completely retarded in terms of offense. This is the achilles heel, and it's probably going to doom the niners this year. Having talent isn't enough in the NFL - you need to be extremely well coached and led by creativity and high levels of competence in order to win more than you lose - you are going up against minds like Payton, Childress, Cameron, etc...I don;t think we have that class of offensive coaching on the niners. Would love to be wrong.

[ Edited by Roxy on Sep 14, 2010 at 13:41:00 ]
Originally posted by Roxy:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
Originally posted by Roxy:
Originally posted by Oakland-Niner:
So after I had some time to digest yesterday's complete blowout, I mustard up the courage to rewatch the game. What I found actually made me feel a little better. Yes the playcalling can be predictable. And yes, the communication issues falls squarely on the shoulders of the coaching staff, but the coaches did enough for us to win that game. Let's look at the facts.


We completly dominated most of the first half, starting with the interception on the first play of the game.,

It's not Raye's fault that Smith and Morgan couldn't get the touchdown. Morgan was open. The call worked. Either Smith threw too high or Morgan doesn't have enough body control or both. Put that on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Moran Norris went into backpeddle mode and Smith lobbed him the ball instead of throwing it directly at him. The fact that Norris was so wide open tells me it was a good call. The players didn't execute.

It's not Raye's fault that Smith couldn't get Ginn the ball when he clearly had his man beat downfield. A good throw probably would of resulted in a TD. Once again, thats on the players.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs decided to zig when Smith decided to throw the ball zag which resulted in a pick six.

It's not Raye's fault that Crabs couldn't hold on to what was essentially a bad shovel pass from Smith which also resulted in an interception.

Can you really blame Coach Sing that T.Brown wanted to be the hero and bit hard on the double fake from Mike Williams which resulted in a TD? If anything, we know our coaching staff preaches staying within your assignment. No way Sing or Manusky agrees a cb should be jumping a route before the ball is even in the air.

In fact, the execution was so poor from the players that I didn't even bother mentioning the phantom PI call on Nate. That play kept the drive alive for the Hawks which lead to their first TD. That really was when things started going down hill.

The point is, even though the coaches didn't operate at a very high level, they at least dialed up enough plays that if they would have been properly executed would of resulted in a much closer game and possibly the win. In retrospect, I dont think all is lost. I just think we needed more time in the preseason to build chemistry.

Seriously, look at all the points THE PLAYERS left on the field.

I remember posts like this when Hostler was the OC too...Yes, Raye made some calls that weren't executed correctly and might have worked, but the offense overall is not NFL worthy - the timing, speed, fluidity, and personnel choices (Sorry, Norris is not a 3rd down back or multi-dimensional threat!) are not top tier.

I've said it since he was fired; We should have kept Martz. Singletary riding herd on Martz would have yielded much better results than ol Granpa' Raye.

Oh, you mean the same OC that nearly made the recently extended VD almost invisible and brought in Just Turnovers to man the QB position? No thanks. It's not that Martz can't be a good OC, it's that the philosophies are so diffrent it never would of worked. We dont have the personnell to be successful in his scheme.

P.S. I also remember posts like this when what's his name got a head coaching job in Greenbay and went on to light it up. Sometimes it is the players.


My argument is that Sing and Matz's philosophies were so different that it WOULD have worked. I think the differing philosophies would have created something much more prolific and effective than Rayes offense - plus Martz is a perfectionist like Walsh, and knew how to keep the offense flowing in all circumstances. He is a highly competent pro, and a little bit whack, but I truly believe the two of them, had they been willing, could have co-created a very good offense. that's my theory, and I guess it doesn't really matter now.

I do absolutely think that Raye is a sub-par coordinator on many levels, from his play calling to his ability to drill the players well and establish repeatable competence and accountability - again, my opinion from what limited information I have gathered. If I'm right, this doesn't bode well for our team since Sing is completely retarded in terms of offense. This is the achilles heel, and it's probably going to doom the niners this year. Having talent isn't enough in the NFL - you need to be extremely well coached and led by creativity and high levels of competence in order to win more than you lose - you are going up against minds like Payton, Childress, Cameron, etc...I don;t think we have that class of offensive coaching on the niners. Would love to be wrong.

Very well said and anyone who says we weren't good under Martz, needs to go back and look at the success we had under Shaun Hill and with Singletary roping in Martz a bit. Our team is best designed to be a modern-day offense esp. in a spread or Martz system. Guys such as Hill (top 5 QB in yards had he played all year), Jason Hill, Morgan and Bruce were explosive...now Hill and Bruce are gone and Morgan is prasied for his "blocking." The o-line played better, we would have had 3 years in this system, it favors not only Alex as a player who could call audibles and play out of the shot gun, but ALL of our players. All we needed to do was incorporate VD into the system more and use Gore more effeciently. He'd get his yards either way. Draft a speedster to run off tackle and exploit mismatches, etc. and we're golden. With Crabtree, a better blocking o-line, offensive FA's would love to come here. It would be like playing for the Saints on many levels. I felt too that if both Mike & Mike could put their egos aside and meet 1/2 we could actually be a prolific offense, IMHO. Oh well.
Take a good look at this f**king guy..... Do you really think he knows what the f**k he'd doing??

Sing isn't as good of a coach as we may want to think
Hey Command, good to hear from you. One question: would you be excited if baalke could somehow talk Tony Dungy to come in and finish out the yr as HC ? And if he said no, then Gruden? Just to finish the yr? I mean, changing HC after 2 games isn't impossible, as there are two guys right there i would love to have until baalke finds a HC after season. Thots? Point is, i don't think it's impossible.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by BubbaParisMVP:
NCommand,

As you recall, one of last year's running jokes about Raye was "we want second half Jimmy Raye calling the first half." He has a decent enough track record for making adjustments. As for last weekend's game, he seemed to show up with a halfway decent game plan until everything went to pot. And, as has been explained in this thread, things went pear shaped largely because of poor execution on the field.

That's a great line! I don't consider an OC having to change to a spread last year b/c we're down 4 TD's "making an adjustment." This is something we HAD to do last year, eve with Shaun Hill making a couple miracle comebacks in the 4th for us to squeak out a win. This is all philosophy and poor coaching. That's not to dismiss the obvious piss poor execution by the players; not at all. But a good coach puts his best players in the best position to succeed. We don't have that kind of coaching. Period. 4th and an inch? You QB sneak. You want a sneak pass off the line on 4th down when everyone is expecting a run? Good call but you use a player who has hands and NOT the player with the worst documented hands on the team. Period. I can go on for hours about how we consistently get outcoached, good players continue to be put in bad situations and talent rarely is used properly. But sadly, all you need to do is watch the opponents to see the glaring differences between an NFL coaching staff with common sense and ours. Of the aforementioned issues I noted, at the end of the day, none of these issues have been fixed in any way from 2009 and a whole off-season to fix them. It's not like the coaching staff didn't know what our GLARING weaknesses were...they had their work cut out for them and even the most ignorant and uneducated fan can spot them. This year...2010...is all about the coaching. I can't stress that enough.

Absolutely spot on. Especially the part about putting players in position to make plays. This staff just flat does not understand how to do that. The only thing they know is "imposing our will on them."

Last night I paid particular attention to the play clock in the Chiefs/Charger game. Though the Chargers had some issues, for the most part, BOTH teams were at the LOS with NOT LEAS THAN 15 SECONDS before they had to snap the ball. The 49ers are lucky if they can decide which play to run with 15 seconds left.