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Manny Lawson's worth

Originally posted by pelos21:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:


At Manny when he loses his starting spot.

"I feel Manny will be here when he has to be here," coach Mike Singletary said. "And I think he'll be ready to go."

You guys crack me up. You act like Manny is already out the door because he hasn't shown up to a team activity that isn't required.

Newsflash, Nate and Spence aren't there either.



~Ceadder

Yah but those guys can actually play a little bit.

Oh I guess that Manny didn't rank very well statistically.

Sacks alone last season

Manny 6.5
Brooks 6
Haralson 5

That's nearly 18 sacks from those 3 guys.

And you want to F'k with that?

You have no clue what you're even talking about. If Manny weren't productive he would be at the very BOTTOM statistically. Instead he's near the top.

To me he's worth $15 mil guaranteed. What he does, allows Icebox, TKO and Bam Bam to do what they do. Crazy pathetic if you don't see that.


~Ceadder

Boy am I glad your not running our team.

Okay then lets see.

Say he gets a 5 year deal. That averages to 8 mil a season if you leave it at $40 mil.

Now, you have the signing bonus. So let's say he gets a 3 mil signing bonus + his salary which with bonuses and incentives would be 7 mil max for both. Now I'm sure that you could figure out a way to fit the remaining $8 million.

It's not a 5 year $40 million deal. It's more like a 3-4 year $15 million deal as the remaining time would be voidable IF he either meets or fails to meet the bonuses or the minimum required performance level.

Now, what I laid out was reasonable. Bam Bam is going to be playing for $10 mil a season on the average. I think that he deserves it. But he's not playing for $10 mil a season. If you don't understand contracts, then I suggest you drop it before you embarrass yourself.

~Ceadder


s**t I'm with you Ceadder! Marathe is a smart dude, he'll figure it out. Lawson is a big part of this defense.

Heh, I may suck at Algebra, but I'm a genius when it comes to contract numbers. lol

~Ceadder
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by pelos21:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:


At Manny when he loses his starting spot.

"I feel Manny will be here when he has to be here," coach Mike Singletary said. "And I think he'll be ready to go."

You guys crack me up. You act like Manny is already out the door because he hasn't shown up to a team activity that isn't required.

Newsflash, Nate and Spence aren't there either.



~Ceadder

Yah but those guys can actually play a little bit.

Oh I guess that Manny didn't rank very well statistically.

Sacks alone last season

Manny 6.5
Brooks 6
Haralson 5

That's nearly 18 sacks from those 3 guys.

And you want to F'k with that?

You have no clue what you're even talking about. If Manny weren't productive he would be at the very BOTTOM statistically. Instead he's near the top.

To me he's worth $15 mil guaranteed. What he does, allows Icebox, TKO and Bam Bam to do what they do. Crazy pathetic if you don't see that.


~Ceadder

Boy am I glad your not running our team.

Okay then lets see.

Say he gets a 5 year deal. That averages to 8 mil a season if you leave it at $40 mil.

Now, you have the signing bonus. So let's say he gets a 3 mil signing bonus + his salary which with bonuses and incentives would be 7 mil max for both. Now I'm sure that you could figure out a way to fit the remaining $8 million.

It's not a 5 year $40 million deal. It's more like a 3-4 year $15 million deal as the remaining time would be voidable IF he either meets or fails to meet the bonuses or the minimum required performance level.

Now, what I laid out was reasonable. Bam Bam is going to be playing for $10 mil a season on the average. I think that he deserves it. But he's not playing for $10 mil a season. If you don't understand contracts, then I suggest you drop it before you embarrass yourself.

~Ceadder


s**t I'm with you Ceadder! Marathe is a smart dude, he'll figure it out. Lawson is a big part of this defense.

Heh, I may suck at Algebra, but I'm a genius when it comes to contract numbers. lol

~Ceadder

Actually 52 is playing for 10 mil a season. If he finishes out his contract, which he will barring injury. He will get exactly that!
Originally posted by Dominate:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by pelos21:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:


At Manny when he loses his starting spot.

"I feel Manny will be here when he has to be here," coach Mike Singletary said. "And I think he'll be ready to go."

You guys crack me up. You act like Manny is already out the door because he hasn't shown up to a team activity that isn't required.

Newsflash, Nate and Spence aren't there either.



~Ceadder

Yah but those guys can actually play a little bit.

Oh I guess that Manny didn't rank very well statistically.

Sacks alone last season

Manny 6.5
Brooks 6
Haralson 5

That's nearly 18 sacks from those 3 guys.

And you want to F'k with that?

You have no clue what you're even talking about. If Manny weren't productive he would be at the very BOTTOM statistically. Instead he's near the top.

To me he's worth $15 mil guaranteed. What he does, allows Icebox, TKO and Bam Bam to do what they do. Crazy pathetic if you don't see that.


~Ceadder

Boy am I glad your not running our team.

Okay then lets see.

Say he gets a 5 year deal. That averages to 8 mil a season if you leave it at $40 mil.

Now, you have the signing bonus. So let's say he gets a 3 mil signing bonus + his salary which with bonuses and incentives would be 7 mil max for both. Now I'm sure that you could figure out a way to fit the remaining $8 million.

It's not a 5 year $40 million deal. It's more like a 3-4 year $15 million deal as the remaining time would be voidable IF he either meets or fails to meet the bonuses or the minimum required performance level.

Now, what I laid out was reasonable. Bam Bam is going to be playing for $10 mil a season on the average. I think that he deserves it. But he's not playing for $10 mil a season. If you don't understand contracts, then I suggest you drop it before you embarrass yourself.

~Ceadder


s**t I'm with you Ceadder! Marathe is a smart dude, he'll figure it out. Lawson is a big part of this defense.

Heh, I may suck at Algebra, but I'm a genius when it comes to contract numbers. lol

~Ceadder

Actually 52 is playing for 10 mil a season. If he finishes out his contract, which he will barring injury. He will get exactly that!

I know you didn't try to correct me on this. You better go look at the "GUARANTEED" amount. It's $50 mil with BONUS and INCENTIVES. Typical contract mumbo jumbo to you, and I fully expect Bam Bam to meet most of those. But no way in hell, is it a straight $50 million.

Seriously go take a look at it again.

~Ceadder
I like Manny, but honestly, I hope he stays away and Brooks steals his job from him. Brooks is a much better pass rusher than Manny.
  • mayo49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 21,928
Originally posted by strickac:
I like Manny, but honestly, I hope he stays away and Brooks steals his job from him. Brooks is a much better pass rusher than Manny.

It's probably going to end up that way anyways.
Originally posted by strickac:
I like Manny, but honestly, I hope he stays away and Brooks steals his job from him. Brooks is a much better pass rusher than Manny.

Don't make me spank you with the stats. Brooks is a solid Pass Rusher yes. But WTF has he done since he's been in the league? The only thing he has going for him right now is that he's got some upside on this Defense.

Besides, how many downs are passing downs? Pass Rushers are only good for PASSING downs. So how many teams do we face that are WCO based teams? Seattle and Green Bay. Of the 13 teams we face how many are pass happy on 2nd downs? Two. Seattle and New Orleans. Green Bay is WCO but they do alot of swing and screen passes. Both of which negate the effectiveness of the Pass Rusher.

So people, PLEASE please stop with the Brooks taking Manny's job bruhaha. It's pathetically ignorant.

There are FOUR players not at OTAs'. Franklin(no guarantee he shows for Camp), Nate, Spence AND Manny.

All you have is rumor innuendo and speculation at this point.

But it's a guarantee that Brooks ain't takin shat from Manny. If anyone takes Manny's spot it would be LaBoy, but TL is a Pass Rush Specialist too. So he's more than likely(after I thought about this some) going to be on the field WITH Brooks on the opposite side. Allowing Bam Bam to drop into coverage and TKO to find a gap.

So just F'N STOP already.

~Ceadder
[ Edited by Ceadderman on May 18, 2010 at 6:39 AM ]
Originally posted by pelos21:
He's still gonna play this year right?


I would say yes, he doesn't seem like the "sit out the season" type of guy. If he does decide to sit out, then I think its time to offer him up in a trade. Hate to see him go, but $40M is just too much.......
Manny would be committing career suicide by sitting out the year... not gonna happen. He will show up for mandatory practices... he will work hard, and have yet another good but unspectacular season. Then, we will resign him for good, but not ridiculous money. He wants to stay a 49er, and would take a little less to do so.


Originally posted by oldman9er:
Manny would be committing career suicide by sitting out the year... not gonna happen. He will show up for mandatory practices... he will work hard, and have yet another good but unspectacular season. Then, we will resign him for good, but not ridiculous money. He wants to stay a 49er, and would take a little less to do so.



It's up to the Man. He can price himself out of SF if he wants, or not.
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by oldman9er:
Manny would be committing career suicide by sitting out the year... not gonna happen. He will show up for mandatory practices... he will work hard, and have yet another good but unspectacular season. Then, we will resign him for good, but not ridiculous money. He wants to stay a 49er, and would take a little less to do so.


It's up to the Man. He can price himself out of SF if he wants, or not.

There's a lot to consider here. Some are taking the glass half-full approach b/c they really like Manny and others, not so much.

I think the key factor here is that they (management) already tried to trade him during the draft which was a great move b/c it gave us an opportunity to see if we could package a deal for another draftee AND it helped set the market for how other teams view Manny Lawson's worth. We got NO takers. That, in and of itself puts ALL the bargaining in managements favor. Why are fans ignoring this?

The next factor to consider is the interviews with LaBoy who clearly was a major fan of SF and wanted to play here BUT with the caveat that he'd get a true shot at starting. In the end, his best shot to start was here in SF where both Haralson (played injured last year) and Manny are current starters.

The final factor to consider is Manny's attitude where he blew up after getting benched for Brooks last year on the sideline. His ego was bruised and for the first time in his SF career, he was being challenged for a starting spot. He went on to play the next three games with more passion and motivation and played very well and then tappered off again towards the end of the season while Brooks came on.

My "theory" for why he blew up was b/c he had planned this contract negotiation last year and then Brooks stepped up and has been clearly supported by Singletary in the media as something special and someone to watch out for.

This final piece is that of the handful of veterans who are not here at OTA's, Manny is the only one the coach has not talked to personally (and for a long time). Both MB & MM have alluded to the fact that the coaching staff is not happy with him. Singletary will say the P.C.-thing and state he believes Manny will be here come mandatory meetings but truly, he has no idea w/o talking to him.

Manny holds very few cards, if any at all in these negotiations. He's just a 1st and 2nd down run-stopping SAM who b/c of his lack of pass rushing skills, makes our defense very predictable. He was completely insignificant in coverage last year and we were still destroyed in covering RB's out of the back field and screen passes (yes, on Manny's side too...a lot!).

Then there is the "assumption" that b/c he sets the edge well and plays run defense well, that another LB can not do that...even as an every down LB. This is a BIG assumption and Manny's ONLY true bargaining chip.

From a management standpoint (Nolan speaking here), Manny is last on the list of contract negotiations, doesn't fit the 3-4 well, we have Brooks, LaBoy, Long and Briggs waiting in the balance, he holds little value across the league, is seen as only a 1st and 2nd down LB anyways in the 3-4 and he isn't communicating with his coaching staff during this negotiation process. So, now we have questions on his decision-making, character and certainly motivation and ego along with the concept of "team" during his absence at OTA's when other players are signing waivers to be here or at least, have communicated with Singletary on their workout routines.

If you were management, honestly, what would you offer Manny right now given our current state of contract negotiations with other players/needs. Clearly, in my mind, management holds ALL the cards here.

IMHO, if Manny REALLY wants to earn a big contract, he needs to be here, prove he's an every down SAM, become a complete OLB who specializes in getting to the QB FIRST and create a permanent place on the bench for Brooks/LaBoy.

For you pro-pay-Manny fans, honestly, take managements standpoint and give me some real reasons why we should pay Manny in the 30-40 million area.

And back that up...don't give me "he lead the team in sacks at 6.5" when none of those sacks mattered like almost all of Brooks' did (QB sacks that lead to fumbles and turnovers in big games). Brooks also had to do it on very predictable downs and almost exclusively from the SAM spot where the QB could see him coming. He also got the same number of sacks as Manny in 1/3 of the snaps that Manny got. Manny had NO excuses this year - he was 100% healthy, in great shape and was informed at the beginning of the year that he would exclusively be rushing the passer for the whole year (like when he was a WILL in his rookie year).

There seems to be just a handful of pro-pay-Manny fans left so I just wanted to know from a management standpoint, what are you seeing that makes him so valuable and irreplaceable to the point that we should negotiate a 30-40 million dollar deal just to retain him despite the long list of others we need to sign as well?
[ Edited by NCommand on May 18, 2010 at 9:48 AM ]
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:
Originally posted by Ceadderman:
Originally posted by susweel:


At Manny when he loses his starting spot.

"I feel Manny will be here when he has to be here," coach Mike Singletary said. "And I think he'll be ready to go."

You guys crack me up. You act like Manny is already out the door because he hasn't shown up to a team activity that isn't required.

Newsflash, Nate and Spence aren't there either.



~Ceadder

Yah but those guys can actually play a little bit.

Oh I guess that Manny didn't rank very well statistically.

Sacks alone last season

Manny 6.5
Brooks 6
Haralson 5

That's nearly 18 sacks from those 3 guys.

And you want to F'k with that?

You have no clue what you're even talking about. If Manny weren't productive he would be at the very BOTTOM statistically. Instead he's near the top.

To me he's worth $15 mil guaranteed. What he does, allows Icebox, TKO and Bam Bam to do what they do. Crazy pathetic if you don't see that.


~Ceadder

Boy am I glad your not running our team.

Okay then lets see.

Say he gets a 5 year deal. That averages to 8 mil a season if you leave it at $40 mil.

Now, you have the signing bonus. So let's say he gets a 3 mil signing bonus + his salary which with bonuses and incentives would be 7 mil max for both. Now I'm sure that you could figure out a way to fit the remaining $8 million.

It's not a 5 year $40 million deal. It's more like a 3-4 year $15 million deal as the remaining time would be voidable IF he either meets or fails to meet the bonuses or the minimum required performance level.

Now, what I laid out was reasonable. Bam Bam is going to be playing for $10 mil a season on the average. I think that he deserves it. But he's not playing for $10 mil a season. If you don't understand contracts, then I suggest you drop it before you embarrass yourself.

~Ceadder

Well obviously the niners to dont value him as much you seem to.
hes not worth it. we can easily draft an all around good LB next year. its the pass rushers that are hard to find. and he hasnt proven he can do that consistantly. so.. bye bye lawson.
I'm still a pro-Lawson guy. But I don't think that a contract extension is in order at this time, for a number of reasons, including the stadium vote.

Seems like there are several data points for estimating Lawson's market value across the NFL. First and foremost (in Lawson's mind) is Calvin Pace's 2009 contract from the Jets. Second and equally important, is the no-takers for a Round 2 pick in the 2010 draft. The latter is a more recent data point, especially valid considering the likelihood of no football in 2011 (lockout). The franchise tag may/may not go away in the new CBA, so the Niners are also gambling a bit, in that if Lawson plays out the final year of his contract, they might have to compete on the open market, if they want to retain him.

Clearly, Lawson would seem to have more value to the Niners than to another club. He knows the system here and his speed (especially backside pursuit) does benefit the players around him. Singletary learned in 2009 that pinching Lawson's pride is the lever for improved performance. If Lawson were to reach the open market, I would expect the Steelers, among others, to take a hard look. I still remember the Hines Ward comments about Lawson, just before the Niners and Steelers played in 2008. That was right before his serious season-ending injury. Pittsburgh coaches obviously think highly of Lawson.

I don't really expect the Niners to make any more big extension offers to veterans, until they see if the stadium vote passes in June. If so, money will be looser. TE Davis will then get an extension offer. Maybe Lawson as well, at a much lower figure. If the stadium vote is "NO", then club management isn't going to be inclined to put out any more big money guaranteed contract offers in 2010, with the 2011 lockout (and no revenue coming in) looming.

If the club makes Lawson an extension offer, and it's not good enough in the estimation of Lawson's agent, is the club better off than just standing pat right now? Would Lawson play better or worse in his contract year, if he felt "insulted"? I wouldn't worry about such matters. Lawson is a good player, IMHO, but everyone is ultimately replaceable. Lawson should play his contract year as if his NFL future (and the associated big pay day) depends on it...because it does.

Lawson and Baas are both in the same situation. The difference is that Baas has accepted what he needs to do and Lawson hasn't yet done so.
Manny could actually learn something from VD.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/05/18/vernon-davis-not-in-a-rush-to-get-a-new-contract/

San Francisco 49ers tight end Vernon Davis, whose contract expires after 2010, is working on a new deal with the team. But he says he's not in any hurry to get a new deal done.

"I'm not in a rush to do anything," Davis said Monday. "That'd be good, when I eventually sign my extension. It's not something that's heavy on my mind. I'm not really thinking about it at the moment."

Davis, who will make a $5.7 million base salary in the final year of his rookie deal, is reportedly asking for a five-year, $40 million contract with $25 million guaranteed. If he's unhappy with the pace of negotiations, he wasn't showing it at Monday's voluntary practice.

"I'm here because this is what I do," Davis said.

Davis is coming off his best season, catching 78 passes for 965 yards and 13 touchdowns in 2009.
Not appropriate to compare TE Davis with Lawson. TE Davis current contract pays him approx NINE TIMES MORE than Lawson's current contract for 2010 ($5.7M vs $640k).
...