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Move David Baas to center

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
Yep, it's a head-scratcher why they haven't given Baas serious reps at C 'til now. I think he's just more naturally suited to it over OG. He can be a beast at that position...given the proper coaching and reps. Heitmann's injury just may've extended his Niner career. It should also hasten the departure of Wallace...

I don't see it as a head scratcher. Baas has had plenty of years (2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010) to show that he is the starting center for this team. For years in camp, he has practiced at center, in front of multiple head coaches, multiple offensive coordinators, multiple offensive line coaches. He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center, and inferior to Iupati at guard. Otherwise, we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point.

Baas is getting his chance to start right now. But, let's be realistic. He is holding the spot down until Heitmann returns. The best he can do is impress the team enough to replace Rachal or Iupati if they start the season slowly.

That a handful of Webzone board members believe they are so much more intelligent than all these coaches and scouts for all these years is either laughable or insanely arrogant.

That is why I respond. I am not prepared to call all of these coaches idiots for their naivity, especially when they daily see each player in the trenches, something that none of us have access to.

NO he hasn't. He's been a Guard his ENTIRE career. That may be lost on you but it's not lost on me. The one time that he got on the field as a Center he wasn't bad, BUT, he didn't have the same things going for him that Heitmann did. So they chose to go with Heitmann instead of teaching Baas the skillsets he needs.

It's easier not Teach a guy when you have someone on the roster that knows what to do. But what happens when the guy that knows what to do goes down?

That's right, you have to TEACH someone else what to do.

I should point out that the McKittrick award is a TEAM award. It's voted on by the players. And it's a TOUGHNESS award. It means F'ALL in the grand scheme of things when you stop to consider how crappy this Line has been for so long.

I really wish that people would stop giving MadDog a crutch in this argument. Heitmann was SERVICEABLE at Center. He's a better Guard and always has been.

MadDog I don't see what you don't understand.

You hate Nolan correct? Defensive Coach correct? Yeah I don't see how that guy could ever have been wrong. Baas sucks.

Warhopp? He had 100% anonymity since Nolan coached the Defense. Only one year did we have anything consistent on the Line and that was '06. I think that's more to Turner than Warhopp. Don't see how that guy could be wrong. Baas sucks.

And then last season? Sims moves from RT to LT and nobody gets around him for the most part. Don't see how Foerster could be wrong either. Baas sucks.

Dude which scenario shows that you're right not to question the coaching that our guys have been getting?

I don't get how you process this to be any other way than us not having a solid grasp of the fundamentals and that the prior two Coaches sucked.

I don't blame Nolan 100% here cause the man like Sing, is a Defensive Coach. As a HC those guys have to trust that their Offensive staff knows what they are doing and make adjustments based on that.

But I do blame Warhopp and Foerster. These guys are tasked with teaching the Line and making sure they're a cohesive unit. Show me ONE year where they were a cohesive unit? Not even in '06 were they that. Allen is a potential HoF'er. Heitmann was a band-aid fix. Name another player off that unit that didn't have trouble. Don't forget now, Jennings never put 12 games on the field in any year he was here.

Should I start listing off the players and breaking down their issues for you? Or do you think that besides Heitmann you can name them off and proving that Warhopp and Foerster were solid coaches? They weren't but I'll humor you if you think that I'm wrong.

~Ceadder
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ninerinsider/detail?entry_id=70477
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
Yep, it's a head-scratcher why they haven't given Baas serious reps at C 'til now. I think he's just more naturally suited to it over OG. He can be a beast at that position...given the proper coaching and reps. Heitmann's injury just may've extended his Niner career. It should also hasten the departure of Wallace...

I don't see it as a head scratcher. Baas has had plenty of years (2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010) to show that he is the starting center for this team. For years in camp, he has practiced at center, in front of multiple head coaches, multiple offensive coordinators, multiple offensive line coaches. He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center, and inferior to Iupati at guard. Otherwise, we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point.

Baas is getting his chance to start right now. But, let's be realistic. He is holding the spot down until Heitmann returns. The best he can do is impress the team enough to replace Rachal or Iupati if they start the season slowly.

That a handful of Webzone board members believe they are so much more intelligent than all these coaches and scouts for all these years is either laughable or insanely arrogant.

That is why I respond. I am not prepared to call all of these coaches idiots for their naivity, especially when they daily see each player in the trenches, something that none of us have access to.

So, all those years that Baas was out with injury (two, I believe), or playing Guard, not Center (the other three), he was actually practicing EVERY DAY, at Center, so that the coaching staff could be absolutely SURE that he's not as good a center as Heitmann.

Who knew? Besides you, that is.

Really, Maddog, some of your statements, like the bolded above, are beyond asinine. They're really baseless, and dumb.

Here's another:

"He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center . . . [o]therwise we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point."

An excellent display of circuitous reasoning. Almost Yogi Berra like. ("Money, its like cash!")

BTW, in case you haven't noticed: we are seeing Baas as a starter at center. At this point.

According to your reasoning, he must, therefore, be better than Heitmann at center. Because he's now the starter there.

That's just really faulty logic, either way you argue it.

How about, instead of relying on the media, or on what you think (or make up) about what the coaches believe, let's just have the coaches make the final decision.

In the meantime, however, on this board--which surprisingly doesn't appear to have much effect on any actual coaching decisions--how about we simply express our opinions based on what we have actually seen, either live or on TV, and let it go at that.

Oh, and stop calling other posters idiots simply because their opinion of a player's actual performance doesn't agree with your own. Especially since you do not, and apparently cannot, point to a single instance of outstanding play by Heitmann to counter the numerous instances where his play has been below par.

The Rocky Bernard "whiff" for example.

The Dallas game two years ago when he got pushed back into the backfield, on two plays, once to destroy a shovel pass to Gore in the red zone, and again on a play when he was pushed back into a pulling Baas and completely destroyed a trap play.

The Minnesota game last year when he failed, miserably, to get a one foot push on a DT to allow Coffee to gain six inches for a first down in the last two minutes to keep possession, preserve the lead, and WIN the ballgame. Instead he got pushed backwards a foot or two and we had to punt the ball to Favre, who then had time to throw that godawful touchdown.

Give me a single instance of Heitmann's shining play to counter any of these. A single instance, at a crucial point in a game, when the Niners were able to gain that short yard, or less, on a fourth down. A single instance where he threw a key block.

Its a given that he's capable of making line calls. Its a given that he can pass protect somewhat in the first quarter, on a relatively meaningless second down.

But when and where has his play been really outstanding? (Being voted captain is not what I'm talking about. Neither is being voted Miss Congeniality.)

You say you watch the line play, and focus on the center play. Surely you can recall a play when he blocked low on a NG, allowing Gore to dive for a crucial TD? No?

When and where has he picked up a blitzing LB and given a QB that extra second to make a critical throw?

Give us an instance of his play (not what someone else says about him, or what you think the coaches think about him) that shows he's not too weak to consistently hold up the middle of the line, either in pass protection or on running plays. When's the last time, if ever, he's flattened an opposing player?

None of this will, of course, influence any coaching decisions about the center position once Heitmann returns.

But at least we will all get to air our own, individual opinions ABOUT THE PLAY WE SEE ON THE FIELD DURING GAMES without your gratuitous and self-serving insults regarding the intelligence of other posters. Thank you very much, in advance.

Are those crickets I hear?

C'mon MD, not even one play? One outstanding play at an important time in a game?
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
Yep, it's a head-scratcher why they haven't given Baas serious reps at C 'til now. I think he's just more naturally suited to it over OG. He can be a beast at that position...given the proper coaching and reps. Heitmann's injury just may've extended his Niner career. It should also hasten the departure of Wallace...

I don't see it as a head scratcher. Baas has had plenty of years (2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010) to show that he is the starting center for this team. For years in camp, he has practiced at center, in front of multiple head coaches, multiple offensive coordinators, multiple offensive line coaches. He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center, and inferior to Iupati at guard. Otherwise, we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point.

Baas is getting his chance to start right now. But, let's be realistic. He is holding the spot down until Heitmann returns. The best he can do is impress the team enough to replace Rachal or Iupati if they start the season slowly.

That a handful of Webzone board members believe they are so much more intelligent than all these coaches and scouts for all these years is either laughable or insanely arrogant.

That is why I respond. I am not prepared to call all of these coaches idiots for their naivity, especially when they daily see each player in the trenches, something that none of us have access to.

So, all those years that Baas was out with injury (two, I believe), or playing Guard, not Center (the other three), he was actually practicing EVERY DAY, at Center, so that the coaching staff could be absolutely SURE that he's not as good a center as Heitmann.

Who knew? Besides you, that is.

Really, Maddog, some of your statements, like the bolded above, are beyond asinine. They're really baseless, and dumb.

Here's another:

"He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center . . . [o]therwise we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point."

An excellent display of circuitous reasoning. Almost Yogi Berra like. ("Money, its like cash!")

BTW, in case you haven't noticed: we are seeing Baas as a starter at center. At this point.

According to your reasoning, he must, therefore, be better than Heitmann at center. Because he's now the starter there.

That's just really faulty logic, either way you argue it.

How about, instead of relying on the media, or on what you think (or make up) about what the coaches believe, let's just have the coaches make the final decision.

In the meantime, however, on this board--which surprisingly doesn't appear to have much effect on any actual coaching decisions--how about we simply express our opinions based on what we have actually seen, either live or on TV, and let it go at that.

Oh, and stop calling other posters idiots simply because their opinion of a player's actual performance doesn't agree with your own. Especially since you do not, and apparently cannot, point to a single instance of outstanding play by Heitmann to counter the numerous instances where his play has been below par.

The Rocky Bernard "whiff" for example.

The Dallas game two years ago when he got pushed back into the backfield, on two plays, once to destroy a shovel pass to Gore in the red zone, and again on a play when he was pushed back into a pulling Baas and completely destroyed a trap play.

The Minnesota game last year when he failed, miserably, to get a one foot push on a DT to allow Coffee to gain six inches for a first down in the last two minutes to keep possession, preserve the lead, and WIN the ballgame. Instead he got pushed backwards a foot or two and we had to punt the ball to Favre, who then had time to throw that godawful touchdown.

Give me a single instance of Heitmann's shining play to counter any of these. A single instance, at a crucial point in a game, when the Niners were able to gain that short yard, or less, on a fourth down. A single instance where he threw a key block.

Its a given that he's capable of making line calls. Its a given that he can pass protect somewhat in the first quarter, on a relatively meaningless second down.

But when and where has his play been really outstanding? (Being voted captain is not what I'm talking about. Neither is being voted Miss Congeniality.)

You say you watch the line play, and focus on the center play. Surely you can recall a play when he blocked low on a NG, allowing Gore to dive for a crucial TD? No?

When and where has he picked up a blitzing LB and given a QB that extra second to make a critical throw?

Give us an instance of his play (not what someone else says about him, or what you think the coaches think about him) that shows he's not too weak to consistently hold up the middle of the line, either in pass protection or on running plays. When's the last time, if ever, he's flattened an opposing player?

None of this will, of course, influence any coaching decisions about the center position once Heitmann returns.

But at least we will all get to air our own, individual opinions ABOUT THE PLAY WE SEE ON THE FIELD DURING GAMES without your gratuitous and self-serving insults regarding the intelligence of other posters. Thank you very much, in advance.

Are those crickets I hear?

C'mon MD, not even one play? One outstanding play at an important time in a game?

Take a step back and think about how idiotic your thought process has become. So, Heitmann grades at 0% in important times in games? Then, you should spend less time debating me. You need to focus your attention on MM, MB, Singletary, Forester, Warhop, Scot, Nolan, Raye,McCarthy, Martz (yeah, he really doesn't know anything about offenses), Mariucci (a drooling moron), Erickson, the print media outside the Bay Area (they are just puppets), the scouts from multiple regimes that review and grade every player on every down in every year along with the coaching staff (what do scouts know), and all the broadcasters who have covered our games. They are all idiots, morons, they have no idea of how the game of football works. They are all blinded to the reality of Eric Heitmann, who has magically tricked all of these people into thinking he is a good player and starter for years. Is this what you really think? Is this how your world of logic works, that YOU have it all figured out. And, they are ALL colletively clueless.

The true knowledge resides from a handful of guys typing on some insignificant webpage. They are the true experts. Everyone else, who happened to do this for a living, have played and coached this game, is wrong.

Do you understand how stupid this makes you appear? Do you honestly think you are smarter than all these people? If so, then you should spent less time trying to argue with me, and demand all these people become fired.

Very much anticipating your response on how all these people, over all these years, are all are wrong. That you are smarter than ALL of these people. Please. I also look forward to your threads on the demanding of the firing of all the Niners are front office for their incompetence regarding Heitmann.

P.S. I am not repeating anything that can't be read from others. In other words, I tend to believe in the electronic media and that our coaches, scouts, and GM's know what the hell they are doing.

[ Edited by MadDog49er on Aug 20, 2010 at 19:21:39 ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
Yep, it's a head-scratcher why they haven't given Baas serious reps at C 'til now. I think he's just more naturally suited to it over OG. He can be a beast at that position...given the proper coaching and reps. Heitmann's injury just may've extended his Niner career. It should also hasten the departure of Wallace...

I don't see it as a head scratcher. Baas has had plenty of years (2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010) to show that he is the starting center for this team. For years in camp, he has practiced at center, in front of multiple head coaches, multiple offensive coordinators, multiple offensive line coaches. He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center, and inferior to Iupati at guard. Otherwise, we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point.

Baas is getting his chance to start right now. But, let's be realistic. He is holding the spot down until Heitmann returns. The best he can do is impress the team enough to replace Rachal or Iupati if they start the season slowly.

That a handful of Webzone board members believe they are so much more intelligent than all these coaches and scouts for all these years is either laughable or insanely arrogant.

That is why I respond. I am not prepared to call all of these coaches idiots for their naivity, especially when they daily see each player in the trenches, something that none of us have access to.

So, all those years that Baas was out with injury (two, I believe), or playing Guard, not Center (the other three), he was actually practicing EVERY DAY, at Center, so that the coaching staff could be absolutely SURE that he's not as good a center as Heitmann.

Who knew? Besides you, that is.

Really, Maddog, some of your statements, like the bolded above, are beyond asinine. They're really baseless, and dumb.

Here's another:

"He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center . . . [o]therwise we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point."

An excellent display of circuitous reasoning. Almost Yogi Berra like. ("Money, its like cash!")

BTW, in case you haven't noticed: we are seeing Baas as a starter at center. At this point.

According to your reasoning, he must, therefore, be better than Heitmann at center. Because he's now the starter there.

That's just really faulty logic, either way you argue it.

How about, instead of relying on the media, or on what you think (or make up) about what the coaches believe, let's just have the coaches make the final decision.

In the meantime, however, on this board--which surprisingly doesn't appear to have much effect on any actual coaching decisions--how about we simply express our opinions based on what we have actually seen, either live or on TV, and let it go at that.

Oh, and stop calling other posters idiots simply because their opinion of a player's actual performance doesn't agree with your own. Especially since you do not, and apparently cannot, point to a single instance of outstanding play by Heitmann to counter the numerous instances where his play has been below par.

The Rocky Bernard "whiff" for example.

The Dallas game two years ago when he got pushed back into the backfield, on two plays, once to destroy a shovel pass to Gore in the red zone, and again on a play when he was pushed back into a pulling Baas and completely destroyed a trap play.

The Minnesota game last year when he failed, miserably, to get a one foot push on a DT to allow Coffee to gain six inches for a first down in the last two minutes to keep possession, preserve the lead, and WIN the ballgame. Instead he got pushed backwards a foot or two and we had to punt the ball to Favre, who then had time to throw that godawful touchdown.

Give me a single instance of Heitmann's shining play to counter any of these. A single instance, at a crucial point in a game, when the Niners were able to gain that short yard, or less, on a fourth down. A single instance where he threw a key block.

Its a given that he's capable of making line calls. Its a given that he can pass protect somewhat in the first quarter, on a relatively meaningless second down.

But when and where has his play been really outstanding? (Being voted captain is not what I'm talking about. Neither is being voted Miss Congeniality.)

You say you watch the line play, and focus on the center play. Surely you can recall a play when he blocked low on a NG, allowing Gore to dive for a crucial TD? No?

When and where has he picked up a blitzing LB and given a QB that extra second to make a critical throw?

Give us an instance of his play (not what someone else says about him, or what you think the coaches think about him) that shows he's not too weak to consistently hold up the middle of the line, either in pass protection or on running plays. When's the last time, if ever, he's flattened an opposing player?

None of this will, of course, influence any coaching decisions about the center position once Heitmann returns.

But at least we will all get to air our own, individual opinions ABOUT THE PLAY WE SEE ON THE FIELD DURING GAMES without your gratuitous and self-serving insults regarding the intelligence of other posters. Thank you very much, in advance.

Are those crickets I hear?

C'mon MD, not even one play? One outstanding play at an important time in a game?

Take a step back and think about how idiotic your thought process has become. So, Heitmann grades at 0% in important times in games? Then, you should spend less time debating me. You need to focus your attention on MM, MB, Singletary, Forester, Warhop, Scot, Nolan, Raye,McCarthy, Martz (yeah, he really doesn't know anything about offenses), Mariucci (a drooling moron), Erickson, the print media outside the Bay Area (they are just puppets), the scouts from multiple regimes that review and grade every player on every down in every year along with the coaching staff (what do scouts know), and all the broadcasters who have covered our games. They are all idiots, morons, they have no idea of how the game of football works. They are all blinded to the reality of Eric Heitmann, who has magically tricked all of these people into thinking he is a good player and starter for years. Is this what you really think? Is this how your world of logic works, that YOU have it all figured out. And, they are ALL colletively clueless.

The true knowledge resides from a handful of guys typing on some insignificant webpage. They are the true experts. Everyone else, who happened to do this for a living, have played and coached this game, is wrong.

Do you understand how stupid this makes you appear? Do you honestly think you are smarter than all these people? If so, then you should spent less time trying to argue with me, and demand all these people become fired.

Very much anticipating your response on how all these people, over all these years, are all are wrong. That you are smarter than ALL of these people. Please. I also look forward to your threads on the demanding of the firing of all the Niners are front office for their incompetence regarding Heitmann.

lol. That's more like it. I thought you were slipping there for a day or so.

Okay, so all these media guys you so constantly rely upon as your basis, and apparently the ONLY basis for your overwhelmingly enthusiastic support of Heitmann, just how many Pro Bowls have they so voted him into so far?

What? None? Why, how can that be, if their opinion of him is anywhere near as great as you contend.

How about answering my question? Can you cite a single play that offsets the instances of subpar play we've seen over the years from Heitmann?

No?

Perhaps that explains why, despite what you believe to be their constant, overwhelming praise for and belief in Heitmann, those same media guys have never voted him All Pro, nor has he played in a single Pro Bowl to date.

My opinion is only based on what I've seen. And make no mistake, I'm not saying I don't think Heitmann's a good football player. He obviously is, or he wouldn't have been starting in the NFL in the first place. But he has his weaknesses, like all players do, and some of us on this board have seen some instances of those weaknesses and would like to discuss our opinions about them.

If you don't mind.

BTW, its a well known psychological phenomenon that people who are insecure about themselves sometimes try to hide that insecurity by claiming others have the problem they, themselves, are insecure about. You might consider that when you try to advise so many of us, so often, about what you perceive to be our limited intellectual abilities.

Doing so has a tendency to reflect back on you, and frankly, I have always thought you to be alot smarter than that.
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
Yep, it's a head-scratcher why they haven't given Baas serious reps at C 'til now. I think he's just more naturally suited to it over OG. He can be a beast at that position...given the proper coaching and reps. Heitmann's injury just may've extended his Niner career. It should also hasten the departure of Wallace...

I don't see it as a head scratcher. Baas has had plenty of years (2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010) to show that he is the starting center for this team. For years in camp, he has practiced at center, in front of multiple head coaches, multiple offensive coordinators, multiple offensive line coaches. He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center, and inferior to Iupati at guard. Otherwise, we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point.

Baas is getting his chance to start right now. But, let's be realistic. He is holding the spot down until Heitmann returns. The best he can do is impress the team enough to replace Rachal or Iupati if they start the season slowly.

That a handful of Webzone board members believe they are so much more intelligent than all these coaches and scouts for all these years is either laughable or insanely arrogant.

That is why I respond. I am not prepared to call all of these coaches idiots for their naivity, especially when they daily see each player in the trenches, something that none of us have access to.

So, all those years that Baas was out with injury (two, I believe), or playing Guard, not Center (the other three), he was actually practicing EVERY DAY, at Center, so that the coaching staff could be absolutely SURE that he's not as good a center as Heitmann.

Who knew? Besides you, that is.

Really, Maddog, some of your statements, like the bolded above, are beyond asinine. They're really baseless, and dumb.

Here's another:

"He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center . . . [o]therwise we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point."

An excellent display of circuitous reasoning. Almost Yogi Berra like. ("Money, its like cash!")

BTW, in case you haven't noticed: we are seeing Baas as a starter at center. At this point.

According to your reasoning, he must, therefore, be better than Heitmann at center. Because he's now the starter there.

That's just really faulty logic, either way you argue it.

How about, instead of relying on the media, or on what you think (or make up) about what the coaches believe, let's just have the coaches make the final decision.

In the meantime, however, on this board--which surprisingly doesn't appear to have much effect on any actual coaching decisions--how about we simply express our opinions based on what we have actually seen, either live or on TV, and let it go at that.

Oh, and stop calling other posters idiots simply because their opinion of a player's actual performance doesn't agree with your own. Especially since you do not, and apparently cannot, point to a single instance of outstanding play by Heitmann to counter the numerous instances where his play has been below par.

The Rocky Bernard "whiff" for example.

The Dallas game two years ago when he got pushed back into the backfield, on two plays, once to destroy a shovel pass to Gore in the red zone, and again on a play when he was pushed back into a pulling Baas and completely destroyed a trap play.

The Minnesota game last year when he failed, miserably, to get a one foot push on a DT to allow Coffee to gain six inches for a first down in the last two minutes to keep possession, preserve the lead, and WIN the ballgame. Instead he got pushed backwards a foot or two and we had to punt the ball to Favre, who then had time to throw that godawful touchdown.

Give me a single instance of Heitmann's shining play to counter any of these. A single instance, at a crucial point in a game, when the Niners were able to gain that short yard, or less, on a fourth down. A single instance where he threw a key block.

Its a given that he's capable of making line calls. Its a given that he can pass protect somewhat in the first quarter, on a relatively meaningless second down.

But when and where has his play been really outstanding? (Being voted captain is not what I'm talking about. Neither is being voted Miss Congeniality.)

You say you watch the line play, and focus on the center play. Surely you can recall a play when he blocked low on a NG, allowing Gore to dive for a crucial TD? No?

When and where has he picked up a blitzing LB and given a QB that extra second to make a critical throw?

Give us an instance of his play (not what someone else says about him, or what you think the coaches think about him) that shows he's not too weak to consistently hold up the middle of the line, either in pass protection or on running plays. When's the last time, if ever, he's flattened an opposing player?

None of this will, of course, influence any coaching decisions about the center position once Heitmann returns.

But at least we will all get to air our own, individual opinions ABOUT THE PLAY WE SEE ON THE FIELD DURING GAMES without your gratuitous and self-serving insults regarding the intelligence of other posters. Thank you very much, in advance.

Are those crickets I hear?

C'mon MD, not even one play? One outstanding play at an important time in a game?

Take a step back and think about how idiotic your thought process has become. So, Heitmann grades at 0% in important times in games? Then, you should spend less time debating me. You need to focus your attention on MM, MB, Singletary, Forester, Warhop, Scot, Nolan, Raye,McCarthy, Martz (yeah, he really doesn't know anything about offenses), Mariucci (a drooling moron), Erickson, the print media outside the Bay Area (they are just puppets), the scouts from multiple regimes that review and grade every player on every down in every year along with the coaching staff (what do scouts know), and all the broadcasters who have covered our games. They are all idiots, morons, they have no idea of how the game of football works. They are all blinded to the reality of Eric Heitmann, who has magically tricked all of these people into thinking he is a good player and starter for years. Is this what you really think? Is this how your world of logic works, that YOU have it all figured out. And, they are ALL colletively clueless.

The true knowledge resides from a handful of guys typing on some insignificant webpage. They are the true experts. Everyone else, who happened to do this for a living, have played and coached this game, is wrong.

Do you understand how stupid this makes you appear? Do you honestly think you are smarter than all these people? If so, then you should spent less time trying to argue with me, and demand all these people become fired.

Very much anticipating your response on how all these people, over all these years, are all are wrong. That you are smarter than ALL of these people. Please. I also look forward to your threads on the demanding of the firing of all the Niners are front office for their incompetence regarding Heitmann.

lol. That's more like it. I thought you were slipping there for a day or so.

Okay, so all these media guys you so constantly rely upon as your basis, and apparently the ONLY basis for your overwhelmingly enthusiastic support of Heitmann, just how many Pro Bowls have they so voted him into so far?

What? None? Why, how can that be, if their opinion of him is anywhere near as great as you contend.

How about answering my question? Can you cite a single play that offsets the instances of subpar play we've seen over the years from Heitmann?

No?

Perhaps that explains why, despite what you believe to be their constant, overwhelming praise for and belief in Heitmann, those same media guys have never voted him All Pro, nor has he played in a single Pro Bowl to date.

My opinion is only based on what I've seen. And make no mistake, I'm not saying I don't think Heitmann's a good football player. He obviously is, or he wouldn't have been starting in the NFL in the first place. But he has his weaknesses, like all players do, and some of us on this board have seen some instances of those weaknesses and would like to discuss our opinions about them.

If you don't mind.

BTW, its a well known psychological phenomenon that people who are insecure about themselves sometimes try to hide that insecurity by claiming others have the problem they, themselves, are insecure about. You might consider that when you try to advise so many of us, so often, about what you perceive to be our limited intellectual abilities.

Doing so has a tendency to reflect back on you, and frankly, I have always thought you to be alot smarter than that.

As expected, you dodged the question. Your criticism of Heitmann's play means all these coaches and writers and broadcasters and scouts and the Niner teammates who continue to vote him team captain are are delusional. Your response, please.

P.S. I have never claimed Heitmann is a Pro-Bowler. You will never find one post. My argument has been that David Baas is not in Eric Heitmann's league as a football player, whether at center or guard. Show me one instance from a scout, coach, player, broadcaster, writer says that I am wrong, and I will concede.

You will not find one expert who agrees with your assessment. I have catalogued for years, in many different threads, how writers, broadcasters, coaches and more agree with me.

Once again, I ask for your response on how all these professionals are wrong, and you are right. And, I look forward to your post demanding the resignation of the Niners coaching staff and front office for incompetence, as well as the print and electronic media.

[ Edited by MadDog49er on Aug 20, 2010 at 20:09:35 ]
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by oldninerdude:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
Yep, it's a head-scratcher why they haven't given Baas serious reps at C 'til now. I think he's just more naturally suited to it over OG. He can be a beast at that position...given the proper coaching and reps. Heitmann's injury just may've extended his Niner career. It should also hasten the departure of Wallace...

I don't see it as a head scratcher. Baas has had plenty of years (2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and 2010) to show that he is the starting center for this team. For years in camp, he has practiced at center, in front of multiple head coaches, multiple offensive coordinators, multiple offensive line coaches. He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center, and inferior to Iupati at guard. Otherwise, we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point.

Baas is getting his chance to start right now. But, let's be realistic. He is holding the spot down until Heitmann returns. The best he can do is impress the team enough to replace Rachal or Iupati if they start the season slowly.

That a handful of Webzone board members believe they are so much more intelligent than all these coaches and scouts for all these years is either laughable or insanely arrogant.

That is why I respond. I am not prepared to call all of these coaches idiots for their naivity, especially when they daily see each player in the trenches, something that none of us have access to.

So, all those years that Baas was out with injury (two, I believe), or playing Guard, not Center (the other three), he was actually practicing EVERY DAY, at Center, so that the coaching staff could be absolutely SURE that he's not as good a center as Heitmann.

Who knew? Besides you, that is.

Really, Maddog, some of your statements, like the bolded above, are beyond asinine. They're really baseless, and dumb.

Here's another:

"He is simply inferior to Heitmann at center . . . [o]therwise we would have seen Baas as a starter at center at some point."

An excellent display of circuitous reasoning. Almost Yogi Berra like. ("Money, its like cash!")

BTW, in case you haven't noticed: we are seeing Baas as a starter at center. At this point.

According to your reasoning, he must, therefore, be better than Heitmann at center. Because he's now the starter there.

That's just really faulty logic, either way you argue it.

How about, instead of relying on the media, or on what you think (or make up) about what the coaches believe, let's just have the coaches make the final decision.

In the meantime, however, on this board--which surprisingly doesn't appear to have much effect on any actual coaching decisions--how about we simply express our opinions based on what we have actually seen, either live or on TV, and let it go at that.

Oh, and stop calling other posters idiots simply because their opinion of a player's actual performance doesn't agree with your own. Especially since you do not, and apparently cannot, point to a single instance of outstanding play by Heitmann to counter the numerous instances where his play has been below par.

The Rocky Bernard "whiff" for example.

The Dallas game two years ago when he got pushed back into the backfield, on two plays, once to destroy a shovel pass to Gore in the red zone, and again on a play when he was pushed back into a pulling Baas and completely destroyed a trap play.

The Minnesota game last year when he failed, miserably, to get a one foot push on a DT to allow Coffee to gain six inches for a first down in the last two minutes to keep possession, preserve the lead, and WIN the ballgame. Instead he got pushed backwards a foot or two and we had to punt the ball to Favre, who then had time to throw that godawful touchdown.

Give me a single instance of Heitmann's shining play to counter any of these. A single instance, at a crucial point in a game, when the Niners were able to gain that short yard, or less, on a fourth down. A single instance where he threw a key block.

Its a given that he's capable of making line calls. Its a given that he can pass protect somewhat in the first quarter, on a relatively meaningless second down.

But when and where has his play been really outstanding? (Being voted captain is not what I'm talking about. Neither is being voted Miss Congeniality.)

You say you watch the line play, and focus on the center play. Surely you can recall a play when he blocked low on a NG, allowing Gore to dive for a crucial TD? No?

When and where has he picked up a blitzing LB and given a QB that extra second to make a critical throw?

Give us an instance of his play (not what someone else says about him, or what you think the coaches think about him) that shows he's not too weak to consistently hold up the middle of the line, either in pass protection or on running plays. When's the last time, if ever, he's flattened an opposing player?

None of this will, of course, influence any coaching decisions about the center position once Heitmann returns.

But at least we will all get to air our own, individual opinions ABOUT THE PLAY WE SEE ON THE FIELD DURING GAMES without your gratuitous and self-serving insults regarding the intelligence of other posters. Thank you very much, in advance.

Are those crickets I hear?

C'mon MD, not even one play? One outstanding play at an important time in a game?

Take a step back and think about how idiotic your thought process has become. So, Heitmann grades at 0% in important times in games? Then, you should spend less time debating me. You need to focus your attention on MM, MB, Singletary, Forester, Warhop, Scot, Nolan, Raye,McCarthy, Martz (yeah, he really doesn't know anything about offenses), Mariucci (a drooling moron), Erickson, the print media outside the Bay Area (they are just puppets), the scouts from multiple regimes that review and grade every player on every down in every year along with the coaching staff (what do scouts know), and all the broadcasters who have covered our games. They are all idiots, morons, they have no idea of how the game of football works. They are all blinded to the reality of Eric Heitmann, who has magically tricked all of these people into thinking he is a good player and starter for years. Is this what you really think? Is this how your world of logic works, that YOU have it all figured out. And, they are ALL colletively clueless.

The true knowledge resides from a handful of guys typing on some insignificant webpage. They are the true experts. Everyone else, who happened to do this for a living, have played and coached this game, is wrong.

Do you understand how stupid this makes you appear? Do you honestly think you are smarter than all these people? If so, then you should spent less time trying to argue with me, and demand all these people become fired.

Very much anticipating your response on how all these people, over all these years, are all are wrong. That you are smarter than ALL of these people. Please. I also look forward to your threads on the demanding of the firing of all the Niners are front office for their incompetence regarding Heitmann.

lol. That's more like it. I thought you were slipping there for a day or so.

Okay, so all these media guys you so constantly rely upon as your basis, and apparently the ONLY basis for your overwhelmingly enthusiastic support of Heitmann, just how many Pro Bowls have they so voted him into so far?

What? None? Why, how can that be, if their opinion of him is anywhere near as great as you contend.

How about answering my question? Can you cite a single play that offsets the instances of subpar play we've seen over the years from Heitmann?

No?

Perhaps that explains why, despite what you believe to be their constant, overwhelming praise for and belief in Heitmann, those same media guys have never voted him All Pro, nor has he played in a single Pro Bowl to date.

My opinion is only based on what I've seen. And make no mistake, I'm not saying I don't think Heitmann's a good football player. He obviously is, or he wouldn't have been starting in the NFL in the first place. But he has his weaknesses, like all players do, and some of us on this board have seen some instances of those weaknesses and would like to discuss our opinions about them.

If you don't mind.

BTW, its a well known psychological phenomenon that people who are insecure about themselves sometimes try to hide that insecurity by claiming others have the problem they, themselves, are insecure about. You might consider that when you try to advise so many of us, so often, about what you perceive to be our limited intellectual abilities.

Doing so has a tendency to reflect back on you, and frankly, I have always thought you to be alot smarter than that.

As expected, you dodged the question. Your criticism of Heitmann's play means all these coaches and writers and broadcasters and scouts and the Niner teammates who continue to vote him team captain are are delusional. Your response, please.

P.S. I have never claimed Heitmann is a Pro-Bowler. You will never find one post. My argument has been that David Baas is not in Eric Heitmann's league as a football player, whether at center or guard. Show me one instance from a scout, coach, player, broadcaster, writer says that I am wrong, and I will concede.

You will not find one expert who agrees with your assessment. I have catalogued for years, in many different threads, how writers, broadcasters, coaches and more agree with me.

Once again, I ask for your response on how all these professionals are wrong, and you are right.

Golly, I could swear that I read just this week that Head Coach Mike Singletary was impressed with Baas' ability at Center. In a game played this past week. An NFL preseason game--making Baas in the same league as Heitmann. At Center.

Pretty sure MM reported the same thing, and I read MB in the Bee this morning saying as much as well! And see PB's blog, which is, btw, the featured story on the front page of this website.

http://blog.pressdemocrat.com/49ers/2010/center-is-baas-job-to-lose.html

Concession accepted. And very gracious of you.

Now, if you don't mind, could you answer my question?

See cause this whole debate started with a simple attempt to discuss the merits of Heitmann's play as seen by us fans. (You know, cause its a fan forum.) What we have seen of him on the field.

You then came at us with "you fools, everybody knows he's the best center evar. . . " etc. Really not the question, and not what we were trying to discuss. You've been missing the point entirely.

The closest you've ever come to rebuttal is your attempt to cite some stats about third down conversions last year. What do they say about "lies, damn lies, and statistics?"

Still doesn't answer the question: have you seen a single, outstanding play by Heitmann where he dominates his opponent?

Didn't think so.

Don't think for a minute that you have a duty to report this newfound (to you) information to the Niners. They probably already know, and that's not the purpose of this forum in the first place. We're just here to talk about the Niners. We don't coach em, we don't scout em, we don't pay em, we don't report on em. We just follow them, support them, and talk about them on this board.

PS: My criticism of several of Heitmann's plays means that all his coaches, scouts, teammates, and the media who cover them are delusional?!? That doesn't even make sense.

My guess is that some of his coaches, scouts and teammates might agree with the criticisms, some might not. We will never know for sure. As to the media, if any of them ever actually looked at and addressed the plays in question, some of them might agree also. Again, until they have the actual issue before them, who knows what they'd say.

[ Edited by oldninerdude on Aug 20, 2010 at 21:16:58 ]
Had to bump it
Originally posted by PatrickJira411:
Had to bump it


lot of crow to be eaten in this thread....


I still disagree that Heitmann is or has ever been the weak link on our Oline, but I think Baas is a natural center and is doing a great job.
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by PatrickJira411:
Had to bump it


lot of crow to be eaten in this thread....


I still disagree that Heitmann is or has ever been the weak link on our Oline, but I think Baas is a natural center and is doing a great job.

I've had my share of crow to eat but at least I eat it. So far, MD keeps denying incorrect opinions:

Brooks
Walker
Baas
Heitmann

hopefully more crow to come:
Taylor Mays
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by HessianDud:
Originally posted by PatrickJira411:
Had to bump it


lot of crow to be eaten in this thread....


I still disagree that Heitmann is or has ever been the weak link on our Oline, but I think Baas is a natural center and is doing a great job.

I've had my share of crow to eat but at least I eat it. So far, MD keeps denying incorrect opinions:

Brooks
Walker
Baas
Heitmann

hopefully more crow to come:
Taylor Mays

bump!