There are 126 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

49ers vs. Crabtree (Contract - Who Won?)

49ers vs. Crabtree (Contract - Who Won?)

Originally posted by AmpLee:
Originally posted by backontop:
No matter how much I get harassed and accused at least I will have peace of mind that I am not hated more than Maddog. Thank you Maddog for being you.

Who hates you?

really guy, are you seriously asking that? I can probably put a small list together and you sir would be one of the top three people listed.
Originally posted by domesik:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The most important thing is that the deal is done, whether someone "won" or "lost".

In the end, as I predicted for some time now, it would take a unique contract to get both sides to agree, and one that both sides can claim victory. And, both sides did win, if the argument was about maintaining or breeching the slot.

And, as I predicted, the Niners held onto the slot in guaranteed money, and Crabtree signed out of the slot in total money.

While Mike Florio goes around pounding his chest in "victory", since he was an antagonist against the Crabtree postion from the beginning (Crabtree must have done something to him in a previous life), even he concedes that Crabtree's deal is better than Raji's (not in that language), as Raji can only close up to Crabtree's numbers if he hits his incentives, while Crabtree does not reach his. If both hit all incentives, Crabtree's contract far surpasses Raji's.

And, while those who stood against Crabtree are happy that this is a six year deal, and calculate the numbers in this way, in the end, with 5 or 6 missed games in 2009, this is really a prorated 5 2/3 year deal that could be voided down to a 4 2/3 year deal.

So, the real calculation for Crabtree's number should not be at 6 years, but 5.66 years, since he did not join the team until today.

So, with no penalties for signing late, 5.66 years at a base of $32 million (6 years at $40 million is the number if escalators are hit) is not bad. Certainly, Crabtree and Parker won this battle. Raji's base is 5 years at $22.5 million.

I think both sides are satisfied with the contract. The Niners admirably fought hard to stick to the slot in guaranteed money, and Crabtree was able to generate an outstanding payday ahead over the life of this contract. It will be interesting to hear how this contract played out in the mind of Eugene Parker, but he rarely, if ever, discusses contracts with the media. He is more of a ghost than anything else.

P.S. I believe that some people who are desperate to claim a Crabtree defeat state that this contract was the same offered in July. I sincerely doubt that this was the same one. I think both sides met in the middle, and this contract was not the one originally offered by the Niners (even in a 5-year deal).

Cheers.

Simply unbelievable.

Come on bro, you didn't really think MD would admit to being wrong. It's just not in his personality. MadDog, I'm on 49ers ecstacy right now, so I love all things 49ers, including all the fans, including you.....

I love you man.

In the end, as I predicted, he is not man enough to admit when he is wrong (again)..
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by AllTimeGreat:
I'm still a little confused on the contract breakdown.

He has 17 million n guaranteed money. And can gain an extra 8 million with a highly unlikely (but possible if he's a beast) 8 million excellerator to bring it up to 40 million total. But what exactly is the other 15 million? Is this signing bonus stuff or what?

The other 15 million is base salary, or yearly salary. So hypothetically, it could be...

2009: 1 million
2010: 2 million
2011: 2 million
2012: 3 million
2013: 3 million
2014: 4 million

Those numbers aren't accurate, just used for the purpose of explanation.

So then he still got more than Raji since Raji only has 22.5 million(not including escalators).

If you take out the 6th year to make all things equal it's 5 years 28 million (17 guaranteed) as apposed to 5 years 22.5 million (18 million guaranteed) with a 6 million escalator. Plus Crabtree has missed 4 games.

It sure seems to me like no one won or lost and they pretty much met in the middle.
Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by AmpLee:
Originally posted by backontop:
No matter how much I get harassed and accused at least I will have peace of mind that I am not hated more than Maddog. Thank you Maddog for being you.

Who hates you?

really guy, are you seriously asking that? I can probably put a small list together and you sir would be one of the top three people listed.

Just because I think you're a previously banned member doesn't mean I hate you. I'm not sure where you got that from. I haven't even been giving you a hard time since you made it clear it was affecting you. I am curious, however, why you use a proxy.
Originally posted by AllTimeGreat:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by AllTimeGreat:
I'm still a little confused on the contract breakdown.

He has 17 million n guaranteed money. And can gain an extra 8 million with a highly unlikely (but possible if he's a beast) 8 million excellerator to bring it up to 40 million total. But what exactly is the other 15 million? Is this signing bonus stuff or what?

The other 15 million is base salary, or yearly salary. So hypothetically, it could be...

2009: 1 million
2010: 2 million
2011: 2 million
2012: 3 million
2013: 3 million
2014: 4 million

Those numbers aren't accurate, just used for the purpose of explanation.

So then he still got more than Raji since Raji only has 22.5 million(not including escalators).

If you take out the 6th year to make all things equal it's 5 years 28 million (17 guaranteed) as apposed to 5 years 22.5 million (18 million guaranteed) with a 6 million escalator. Plus Crabtree has missed 4 games.

It sure seems to me like no one won or lost and they pretty much met in the middle.

From what I understand, Raji's escalator is very reasonably attainable, whereas Crabtree's isn't. Plus, the sixth year is a big deal because he'll be signed for a base salary of $4M...which means another year before he can get a big second contract.

All that being said, I was under the impression that DHB was the benchmark, not Raji.
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The most important thing is that the deal is done, whether someone "won" or "lost".

In the end, as I predicted for some time now, it would take a unique contract to get both sides to agree, and one that both sides can claim victory. And, both sides did win, if the argument was about maintaining or breeching the slot.

And, as I predicted, the Niners held onto the slot in guaranteed money, and Crabtree signed out of the slot in total money.

While Mike Florio goes around pounding his chest in "victory", since he was an antagonist against the Crabtree postion from the beginning (Crabtree must have done something to him in a previous life), even he concedes that Crabtree's deal is better than Raji's (not in that language), as Raji can only close up to Crabtree's numbers if he hits his incentives, while Crabtree does not reach his. If both hit all incentives, Crabtree's contract far surpasses Raji's.

And, while those who stood against Crabtree are happy that this is a six year deal, and calculate the numbers in this way, in the end, with 5 or 6 missed games in 2009, this is really a prorated 5 2/3 year deal that could be voided down to a 4 2/3 year deal.

So, the real calculation for Crabtree's number should not be at 6 years, but 5.66 years, since he did not join the team until today.

So, with no penalties for signing late, 5.66 years at a base of $32 million (6 years at $40 million is the number if escalators are hit) is not bad. Certainly, Crabtree and Parker won this battle. Raji's base is 5 years at $22.5 million.

I think both sides are satisfied with the contract. The Niners admirably fought hard to stick to the slot in guaranteed money, and Crabtree was able to generate an outstanding payday ahead over the life of this contract. It will be interesting to hear how this contract played out in the mind of Eugene Parker, but he rarely, if ever, discusses contracts with the media. He is more of a ghost than anything else.

P.S. I believe that some people who are desperate to claim a Crabtree defeat state that this contract was the same offered in July. I sincerely doubt that this was the same one. I think both sides met in the middle, and this contract was not the one originally offered by the Niners (even in a 5-year deal).

Cheers.




it was well known that the measuring stick was not raji's contract, it was dhb. while 32mill is there for him, it does sound like he would have to be a superman type effort to get even a penny more. this could not have been the contract he held out all of training camp and 25% of the season for. his guaranteed is 6.5 mill less then bey's guaranteed, and another 6.25 less on the base. he pails in comparison to dhb's contract, the one he was widely regarded to be holding out for by 12.75 million. dhb's incentives also take his up past 54.5$. all for 3/4's of a year more of work for crabtree as well.. its been readily noted by multiple sources that crabtree's 8 mill in incentives is at suerhuman levels whereas not reading that yet on bey's 15.75 million in incentives, almost double that of crabtree's incentives.

monroe's deal is 2 mill more guaranteed, 3.4 on the base, again, with crabtree working another 3/4ths of a year more then them

as you stated, raji got 1 mill more guaranteed, and 3.5 less on the course of the contract but again, without having to waste 3/4th of another year of play for it

1. dhb was the target contract to beat, they came way, way, way far behind on that one.

2. didnt beat the slot of the 8th pick either

3. beat the base of the pick ahead but with one more year of commitment.

4. didnt find the incentives right away for monroe or raji so not sure how that factors in.

5. and the most important in my eyes, all three guys ahead of him will hit free agency 1 full calendar year ahead of him and will start that cycle of multiple contracts over the course of their life, one full calendar year before crabtree. this is the biggest loss for crabtree in my eyes. while its possible he could get it voided, the likeyhood is against him. he will hit free agency a year later then most of his peers and unless he pans out and scores a more dynamic contract at that time, he has started a cycle that will see him making less for some time.

from everything i know and that may not be much, crabtree's one win was having a higher base built in then before, roughly 8 mill for the course of 5 years. i did think the incentives offered at that time could have gotten it close to if not over 28 million though and at that point, there wasnt much talk of unatainable incentives like there is now. more importantly, again, by accepting something less in guarantee now(but something that could have been made up in incentives), he delays his free agency by a year more then it would have been had he not held out. more so, whose to say the niners base offer was non negotiable, the incentives were non negotiable. it was the stance of wanting dhb money that killed this off, i am sure niners could have uped the incentives and base in good faith had the offer out of the parker/crabtree cmp not been so ridiculous in nature.
Originally posted by AmpLee:
Originally posted by backontop:
Originally posted by AmpLee:
Originally posted by backontop:
No matter how much I get harassed and accused at least I will have peace of mind that I am not hated more than Maddog. Thank you Maddog for being you.

Who hates you?

really guy, are you seriously asking that? I can probably put a small list together and you sir would be one of the top three people listed.

Just because I think you're a previously banned member doesn't mean I hate you. I'm not sure where you got that from. I haven't even been giving you a hard time since you made it clear it was affecting you. I am curious, however, why you use a proxy.

work
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The most important thing is that the deal is done, whether someone "won" or "lost".

In the end, as I predicted for some time now, it would take a unique contract to get both sides to agree, and one that both sides can claim victory. And, both sides did win, if the argument was about maintaining or breeching the slot.

And, as I predicted, the Niners held onto the slot in guaranteed money, and Crabtree signed out of the slot in total money.

While Mike Florio goes around pounding his chest in "victory", since he was an antagonist against the Crabtree postion from the beginning (Crabtree must have done something to him in a previous life), even he concedes that Crabtree's deal is better than Raji's (not in that language), as Raji can only close up to Crabtree's numbers if he hits his incentives, while Crabtree does not reach his. If both hit all incentives, Crabtree's contract far surpasses Raji's.

And, while those who stood against Crabtree are happy that this is a six year deal, and calculate the numbers in this way, in the end, with 5 or 6 missed games in 2009, this is really a prorated 5 2/3 year deal that could be voided down to a 4 2/3 year deal.

So, the real calculation for Crabtree's number should not be at 6 years, but 5.66 years, since he did not join the team until today.

So, with no penalties for signing late, 5.66 years at a base of $32 million (6 years at $40 million is the number if escalators are hit) is not bad. Certainly, Crabtree and Parker won this battle. Raji's base is 5 years at $22.5 million.

I think both sides are satisfied with the contract. The Niners admirably fought hard to stick to the slot in guaranteed money, and Crabtree was able to generate an outstanding payday ahead over the life of this contract. It will be interesting to hear how this contract played out in the mind of Eugene Parker, but he rarely, if ever, discusses contracts with the media. He is more of a ghost than anything else.

P.S. I believe that some people who are desperate to claim a Crabtree defeat state that this contract was the same offered in July. I sincerely doubt that this was the same one. I think both sides met in the middle, and this contract was not the one originally offered by the Niners (even in a 5-year deal).

Cheers.

Translation: Next time Eugine Parker convinces he can get a rookie more money...never.
Originally posted by ssahnan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The most important thing is that the deal is done, whether someone "won" or "lost".

In the end, as I predicted for some time now, it would take a unique contract to get both sides to agree, and one that both sides can claim victory. And, both sides did win, if the argument was about maintaining or breeching the slot.

And, as I predicted, the Niners held onto the slot in guaranteed money, and Crabtree signed out of the slot in total money.

While Mike Florio goes around pounding his chest in "victory", since he was an antagonist against the Crabtree postion from the beginning (Crabtree must have done something to him in a previous life), even he concedes that Crabtree's deal is better than Raji's (not in that language), as Raji can only close up to Crabtree's numbers if he hits his incentives, while Crabtree does not reach his. If both hit all incentives, Crabtree's contract far surpasses Raji's.

And, while those who stood against Crabtree are happy that this is a six year deal, and calculate the numbers in this way, in the end, with 5 or 6 missed games in 2009, this is really a prorated 5 2/3 year deal that could be voided down to a 4 2/3 year deal.

So, the real calculation for Crabtree's number should not be at 6 years, but 5.66 years, since he did not join the team until today.

So, with no penalties for signing late, 5.66 years at a base of $32 million (6 years at $40 million is the number if escalators are hit) is not bad. Certainly, Crabtree and Parker won this battle. Raji's base is 5 years at $22.5 million.

I think both sides are satisfied with the contract. The Niners admirably fought hard to stick to the slot in guaranteed money, and Crabtree was able to generate an outstanding payday ahead over the life of this contract. It will be interesting to hear how this contract played out in the mind of Eugene Parker, but he rarely, if ever, discusses contracts with the media. He is more of a ghost than anything else.

P.S. I believe that some people who are desperate to claim a Crabtree defeat state that this contract was the same offered in July. I sincerely doubt that this was the same one. I think both sides met in the middle, and this contract was not the one originally offered by the Niners (even in a 5-year deal).

Cheers.




it was well known that the measuring stick was not raji's contract, it was dhb. while 32mill is there for him, it does sound like he would have to be a superman type effort to get even a penny more. this could not have been the contract he held out all of training camp and 25% of the season for. his guaranteed is 6.5 mill less then bey's guaranteed, and another 6.25 less on the base. he pails in comparison to dhb's contract, the one he was widely regarded to be holding out for by 12.75 million. dhb's incentives also take his up past 54.5$. all for 3/4's of a year more of work for crabtree as well.. its been readily noted by multiple sources that crabtree's 8 mill in incentives is at suerhuman levels whereas not reading that yet on bey's 15.75 million in incentives, almost double that of crabtree's incentives.

monroe's deal is 2 mill more guaranteed, 3.4 on the base, again, with crabtree working another 3/4ths of a year more then them

as you stated, raji got 1 mill more guaranteed, and 3.5 less on the course of the contract but again, without having to waste 3/4th of another year of play for it

1. dhb was the target contract to beat, they came way, way, way far behind on that one.

2. didnt beat the slot of the 8th pick either

3. beat the base of the pick ahead but with one more year of commitment.

4. didnt find the incentives right away for monroe or raji so not sure how that factors in.

5. and the most important in my eyes, all three guys ahead of him will hit free agency 1 full calendar year ahead of him and will start that cycle of multiple contracts over the course of their life, one full calendar year before crabtree. this is the biggest loss for crabtree in my eyes. while its possible he could get it voided, the likeyhood is against him. he will hit free agency a year later then most of his peers and unless he pans out and scores a more dynamic contract at that time, he has started a cycle that will see him making less for some time.

from everything i know and that may not be much, crabtree's one win was having a higher base built in then before, roughly 8 mill for the course of 5 years. i did think the incentives offered at that time could have gotten it close to if not over 28 million though and at that point, there wasnt much talk of unatainable incentives like there is now. more importantly, again, by accepting something less in guarantee now(but something that could have been made up in incentives), he delays his free agency by a year more then it would have been had he not held out. more so, whose to say the niners base offer was non negotiable, the incentives were non negotiable. it was the stance of wanting dhb money that killed this off, i am sure niners could have uped the incentives and base in good faith had the offer out of the parker/crabtree cmp not been so ridiculous in nature.

Very well articulated, especially #5.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by AllTimeGreat:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by AllTimeGreat:
I'm still a little confused on the contract breakdown.

He has 17 million n guaranteed money. And can gain an extra 8 million with a highly unlikely (but possible if he's a beast) 8 million excellerator to bring it up to 40 million total. But what exactly is the other 15 million? Is this signing bonus stuff or what?

The other 15 million is base salary, or yearly salary. So hypothetically, it could be...

2009: 1 million
2010: 2 million
2011: 2 million
2012: 3 million
2013: 3 million
2014: 4 million

Those numbers aren't accurate, just used for the purpose of explanation.

So then he still got more than Raji since Raji only has 22.5 million(not including escalators).

If you take out the 6th year to make all things equal it's 5 years 28 million (17 guaranteed) as apposed to 5 years 22.5 million (18 million guaranteed) with a 6 million escalator. Plus Crabtree has missed 4 games.

It sure seems to me like no one won or lost and they pretty much met in the middle.

From what I understand, Raji's escalator is very reasonably attainable, whereas Crabtree's isn't. Plus, the sixth year is a big deal because he'll be signed for a base salary of $4M...which means another year before he can get a big second contract.

All that being said, I was under the impression that DHB was the benchmark, not Raji.

That's a good point.

My main point is that that's still a nice little contract and better than the 20 million (16 g.) that was offered to him earlier. Parker and Crabtree hardly got owned on this deal and obviously neither did the niners.
The only person who lost in this is Eugene Parker. Even Crabtree called this a "humbling" experience. Not exactly winning words and guess what, he gave all the credit to his agent on the holdout.

Sorry Parker, but you just lost a lot of credibility with draftees.
Originally posted by ssahnan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The most important thing is that the deal is done, whether someone "won" or "lost".

In the end, as I predicted for some time now, it would take a unique contract to get both sides to agree, and one that both sides can claim victory. And, both sides did win, if the argument was about maintaining or breeching the slot.

And, as I predicted, the Niners held onto the slot in guaranteed money, and Crabtree signed out of the slot in total money.

While Mike Florio goes around pounding his chest in "victory", since he was an antagonist against the Crabtree postion from the beginning (Crabtree must have done something to him in a previous life), even he concedes that Crabtree's deal is better than Raji's (not in that language), as Raji can only close up to Crabtree's numbers if he hits his incentives, while Crabtree does not reach his. If both hit all incentives, Crabtree's contract far surpasses Raji's.

And, while those who stood against Crabtree are happy that this is a six year deal, and calculate the numbers in this way, in the end, with 5 or 6 missed games in 2009, this is really a prorated 5 2/3 year deal that could be voided down to a 4 2/3 year deal.

So, the real calculation for Crabtree's number should not be at 6 years, but 5.66 years, since he did not join the team until today.

So, with no penalties for signing late, 5.66 years at a base of $32 million (6 years at $40 million is the number if escalators are hit) is not bad. Certainly, Crabtree and Parker won this battle. Raji's base is 5 years at $22.5 million.

I think both sides are satisfied with the contract. The Niners admirably fought hard to stick to the slot in guaranteed money, and Crabtree was able to generate an outstanding payday ahead over the life of this contract. It will be interesting to hear how this contract played out in the mind of Eugene Parker, but he rarely, if ever, discusses contracts with the media. He is more of a ghost than anything else.

P.S. I believe that some people who are desperate to claim a Crabtree defeat state that this contract was the same offered in July. I sincerely doubt that this was the same one. I think both sides met in the middle, and this contract was not the one originally offered by the Niners (even in a 5-year deal).

Cheers.




it was well known that the measuring stick was not raji's contract, it was dhb. while 32mill is there for him, it does sound like he would have to be a superman type effort to get even a penny more. this could not have been the contract he held out all of training camp and 25% of the season for. his guaranteed is 6.5 mill less then bey's guaranteed, and another 6.25 less on the base. he pails in comparison to dhb's contract, the one he was widely regarded to be holding out for by 12.75 million. dhb's incentives also take his up past 54.5$. all for 3/4's of a year more of work for crabtree as well.. its been readily noted by multiple sources that crabtree's 8 mill in incentives is at suerhuman levels whereas not reading that yet on bey's 15.75 million in incentives, almost double that of crabtree's incentives.

monroe's deal is 2 mill more guaranteed, 3.4 on the base, again, with crabtree working another 3/4ths of a year more then them

as you stated, raji got 1 mill more guaranteed, and 3.5 less on the course of the contract but again, without having to waste 3/4th of another year of play for it

1. dhb was the target contract to beat, they came way, way, way far behind on that one.

2. didnt beat the slot of the 8th pick either

3. beat the base of the pick ahead but with one more year of commitment.

4. didnt find the incentives right away for monroe or raji so not sure how that factors in.

5. and the most important in my eyes, all three guys ahead of him will hit free agency 1 full calendar year ahead of him and will start that cycle of multiple contracts over the course of their life, one full calendar year before crabtree. this is the biggest loss for crabtree in my eyes. while its possible he could get it voided, the likeyhood is against him. he will hit free agency a year later then most of his peers and unless he pans out and scores a more dynamic contract at that time, he has started a cycle that will see him making less for some time.

from everything i know and that may not be much, crabtree's one win was having a higher base built in then before, roughly 8 mill for the course of 5 years. i did think the incentives offered at that time could have gotten it close to if not over 28 million though and at that point, there wasnt much talk of unatainable incentives like there is now. more importantly, again, by accepting something less in guarantee now(but something that could have been made up in incentives), he delays his free agency by a year more then it would have been had he not held out. more so, whose to say the niners base offer was non negotiable, the incentives were non negotiable. it was the stance of wanting dhb money that killed this off, i am sure niners could have uped the incentives and base in good faith had the offer out of the parker/crabtree cmp not been so ridiculous in nature.

I think the bottom line is he could have got this contract in August. That is the reason why this is a complete lost by Parker/Crabtree.
Originally posted by AllTimeGreat:
That's a good point.

My main point is that that's still a nice little contract and better than the 20 million (16 g.) that was offered to him earlier. Parker and Crabtree hardly got owned on this deal and obviously neither did the niners.

While I agree that he's bringing home a very nice paycheck, it's well short of what they wanted, and much closer to the Niner's original offer. And it's a deal that probably could have been signed a couple of months ago. And in the process, Crabtree's public perception took a significant hit, which hurts endorsement deals that go beyond toasted submarine sandwiches.
Originally posted by Joecool:
The only person who lost in this is Eugene Parker. Even Crabtree called this a "humbling" experience. Not exactly winning words and guess what, he gave all the credit to his agent on the holdout.

Sorry Parker, but you just lost a lot of credibility with draftees.

This.

Its fresh on everyone's mind now but if Crabtree lives up to his hype everyone will soon pretty much forget about it. College players are probably not going to sign with Parker though as they see he can't get the job done without a holdout.
  • 49er4life26
  • Info N/A
49ers won this battle!!!!