Stop blaming Raye . . .

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by chico49erfan:

Originally posted by Blitz:
It ain't the offense's job to get first downs, convert 3rd downs or anything of the sort, it is simply to score more points than the other guy, anyway you can get it, and to protect that ball along the way.

No offense, but this is absolute nonsense. That's the ENTIRE point of the offense. To convert on 3rd downs to keep the drive alive -- to keep the D off the field. When you do this, you do the next thing: score points. And you want to score more than the opponent.

No offense, but this is complete BS. I can prove it very easily.

A team is awarded a win based upon ONE thing and ONE thing only: Scoring more points than the opposing team. At the end of the day, there are only two stat's that matter, points for and points against. Make a thousand first downs, hold sustaining drives that hog up 59 minutes of the game and it still doesn't mean jack s**t if at the end of the day you don't have more points for than points against.

Now to prove how faulty this logic is that people are using here is: People are forgetting that the offense had another chance to score and win, but VD dropped the ball. He should have caught the ball, and he should have scored. See how f**ked up that line of reasoning is? See how it IGNORES ALL MITIGATING FACTS surrounding the situation? How about Walker giving up on the route? If he hadn't of done that we would have won. IN other words, the logic your using is faulty because even if the niner's had done something differently, it doesn't necessarily change the outcome. They had the game until THE DEFENSE FAILED TO DO IT'S JOB, which happened approximately 2 seconds before the end of the game. The offense did it's part (score more points than the opponent) and the defense did theirs right up until 2 seconds before the game at which time they blew it, epically, with the help of a hall of fame, once in many thousands throw and catch by the opposing team.

The facts: The offense scored enough points to win the game. The decision was made for the offense to protect the ball as much as possible and eat up clock first and foremost, then put the protection of that lead into the defense's hands, which was the right decision based upon the mitigating circumstances. The defense failed to do that.

Playcalling at the end of the game is what killed us...we let Favre march down the field uncontested, and we finished the game leaving the back of the endzone and corners completely unprotected. Why we deviated from the defense that was successful all game long in the final 90 sec is what is killing me...you play soft at the end and you will find yourself with a loss...

i will never stop blaming him for the loss !

Originally posted by leebert81:

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by 4evrfan:

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by baltien:

Originally posted by Blitz:
Ok, here's the deal from someone who knows something about this type of situation, Tony Dungy, who just went over this with some film illustrating how the defense f**ked up.

Right from his mouth: The 49ers didn't defend this well, they defended the middle of the field instead of the sidelines and the end zone. This was a situation we (the colts) used practice once a week on Saturday, put the ball on the thirty and practice a "last play of the game" defense. Mike Singletary will learn from this and not let this this happen again, you can bet they will be practicing it once a week from now on, is what he said.

There you go, from somebody who knows what the f**k they are talking about. This loss didn't have a f**king thing to do with the offense, it was the defense who played an outstanding game who f**ked up in the end, and it was because neither Manusky nor Singletary recognized that they needed to focus on defending the sideline and the endzone. Before the snap...the middle of the field was loaded up defensively.

Not to pick a fight, but you don't think that maybe if we got a first down on our last drive, we would've won? You don't think our Offense bears any blame for failing to run some 90 seconds off the clock? Due to VERY predictable playcalling?

In my eyes, Raye is just as at fault as the 'D'.

All woulda coulda shoulda. I can name a thousand other woulda coulda shoulda scenarios. A dropped ball, a bit of a wrong route, giving up on a route a missed block, a bad play call, a bad call by the refs..it goes on and on and on. All of it is part of the game, all of it woulda shoulda coulda. Stick with the facts, which is that the defense did not defend that play well at all, and it cost the game. The offense didd it's job, including the coaches...they put enough points on the board to win the game. Then we gave it to the defense to win for us, which was wholly the smart, odds on thing to do considering a field goal would not do it for them and they had no timeouts with one minute left and the d hadn't even allowed them to drive into filed goal range the entire second half, yet alone 80 yards and a td.

This reminds of the argument about the Patsy's when they lost the superbowl, how the offense failed them when the reality was that the defense failed them because they didn't stop the Giants from scoring after the Patsy's had gone ahead.

The bottom line was that it was a much safer bet to put the game in the defense's hand. It's a team game, when the game gets turned over to the defense (regardless of why) it's their job to do their part which is first and foremost not allow the score. When it gets turned over to the offense, it's their job to score enough to win, and they did that. It ain't the offense's job to get first downs, convert 3rd downs or anything of the sort, it is simply to score more points than the other guy, anyway you can get it, and to protect that ball along the way.

Have you actually watched the last 3 games? It's 3 games in a row that the defense held our opponents in check and all the offense had to do was get first downs to ice it away. All 3 games they couldn't and went 3 and outs, giving the other guys last ditch opportunities. If we could have just gotten a first down near the end today, Favre wouldn't have had a chance at last-minute heroics! The offense, thanks in great part to aye, is anemic and something needs to be done. Now that gore's probably out, it may actually force him to get a little creative. Pray that it's so!

I have watched the games, now here is the reality of the situation you speak of:

"The 49ers have ended all three of their games the same way, by lining up with only one wide receiver and running three times in a row. I do think there are times when offensive coordinator Jimmy Raye should show more trust in Shaun Hill. This was not necessarily one of those times. The 49ers had thrown eight previous times on third down in this game without converting one of them, including a third-and-1 play when they tried to spread the field with three receivers instead of running. Their best pass-protector, left tackle Joe Staley, had suffered a leg injury late in the game. Barry Sims was at left tackle. If Raye had called for a pass and something had gone terribly wrong, the 49ers would be hearing about how they strayed from their identity at the worst possible time, and how Raye should have known the passing game hadn't done anything on third down all game, even with Staley. The 49ers' defense allowed a 32-yard touchdown pass on the final play when only a 32-yard touchdown pass could beat them. That was the bigger story to me. "

That's the reality, on the ground, instead of from a the armchair coaches position.

Now to say the offense is anemic is complete and utter BS. It's ugly as hell, but it's been damn good enough to win. Here are the stats to prove it:

Avg points for: 22.3
Avg points against: 17.7

You see, 22.3 points is plenty good enough to win when you have a defense that only allows an average of 17.7. The offense is good enough to win, with the defense we have, and vice versa. Utter BS about the offense being anemic, as it ignores the most important stat of all, points for.

I have a theory, I think there is a lot of people who simply don't have the nerves to sit through this type of football. It's too uncomfortable for them, win or lose. Gives them ulcer's, even when we win.

Well, actually it's 19.97 points per game for the offense. At least 7 points yesterday was from a blocked field goal and return. To me that's not enough offense to consistently win.

LB

Yeah, well there you go. I knew someone would chime in about that. But it works both ways. You don't get your cake and get to eat it to. Didn't the ST give up 7 yesterday as well? Doesn't that show up in the points against stats, on the defense side of the ball? How come your working the math to support your argument and neglecting to work it the other way? It's a wash, ST giveth and taketh away yesterday.

Our defense just got even more stingier stat wise, when you take away those 7 points ST gave up on the kickoff return.

We can play this woulda shoulda could game for ever and regardless, the outcome is the same...the defense failed in the end, after we had accumulated enough points to win.

not blaming anyone but cmon we need to fool the D a lil, we should have had a short pass on that last drive to get a first down and then we could have ran out the damn clock...

Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:

Originally posted by tommyncal:
. . . . he is calling the plays that Singletary wants. This is Singletary's philosphy . . conservative, conservative and more conservative. Singletary could override any call that Raye calls. Singletary has done a remarkable job, but I am having trouble getting onboard his bandwagon. You need a qb that defenses have to game plan for. These are the 49ers, where's our legacy?? The game is there to be won with a simple short pass and they can't, or choose not to, make a first down! That's alot of pressure to be put on any defense game after game. Singletary needs to change or the Scott needs to tell him to change.

Yeah its Raye's fault. We lose our best player on offense and Raye manages to squeeze 2 TD's out in the second half on the road against a top 5 defense and it's his fault. You guys a f**king ridiculous.
QuoteEdit

Originally posted by tommyncal:
. . . . he is calling the plays that Singletary wants. This is Singletary's philosphy . . conservative, conservative and more conservative. Singletary could override any call that Raye calls. Singletary has done a remarkable job, but I am having trouble getting onboard his bandwagon. You need a qb that defenses have to game plan for. These are the 49ers, where's our legacy?? The game is there to be won with a simple short pass and they can't, or choose not to, make a first down! That's alot of pressure to be put on any defense game after game. Singletary needs to change or the Scott needs to tell him to change.

We're rebuilding that. I agree that Raye is nothing more than a scapegoat for the masses, but you can't ask where our legacy is anymore. We haven't had one since before Mooch, despite having the core group of our dynasty.

In any case I agree that Raye is not to blame. If we had a QB that Defenses had to respect I can just about guarantee that the play calling would not be so one sided and conservative. Conservative is great but as the last game showed us it's not something to hang your hat on if you wish to remain in the hunt for the entire season.

~Ceadder

Originally posted by tommyncal:

Originally posted by ObePwnD:

Originally posted by tommyncal:
. . . . he is calling the plays that Singletary wants. This is Singletary's philosphy . . conservative, conservative and more conservative. Singletary could override any call that Raye calls. Singletary has done a remarkable job, but I am having trouble getting onboard his bandwagon. You need a qb that defenses have to game plan for. These are the 49ers, where's our legacy?? The game is there to be won with a simple short pass and they can't, or choose not to, make a first down! That's alot of pressure to be put on any defense game after game. Singletary needs to change or the Scott needs to tell him to change.

You new guys, I swear.

just cause us 'new guys' don't post every time we get a brain fart, doesn't make our opinions inferior to yours, I've been on this forum for years, just choose not to get into every ridiculous debate.

except for this one.

Originally posted by Giant9er:

Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:

Originally posted by tommyncal:
. . . . he is calling the plays that Singletary wants. This is Singletary's philosphy . . conservative, conservative and more conservative. Singletary could override any call that Raye calls. Singletary has done a remarkable job, but I am having trouble getting onboard his bandwagon. You need a qb that defenses have to game plan for. These are the 49ers, where's our legacy?? The game is there to be won with a simple short pass and they can't, or choose not to, make a first down! That's alot of pressure to be put on any defense game after game. Singletary needs to change or the Scott needs to tell him to change.

Yeah its Raye's fault. We lose our best player on offense and Raye manages to squeeze 2 TD's out in the second half on the road against a top 5 defense and it's his fault. You guys a f**king ridiculous.
QuoteEdit

Sure is a lot of blame going around. Can someone lead me to the blame Roman thread.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by tommyncal:
. . . . he is calling the plays that Singletary wants. This is Singletary's philosphy . . conservative, conservative and more conservative. Singletary could override any call that Raye calls. Singletary has done a remarkable job, but I am having trouble getting onboard his bandwagon. You need a qb that defenses have to game plan for. These are the 49ers, where's our legacy?? The game is there to be won with a simple short pass and they can't, or choose not to, make a first down! That's alot of pressure to be put on any defense game after game. Singletary needs to change or the Scott needs to tell him to change.

We're rebuilding that. I agree that Raye is nothing more than a scapegoat for the masses, but you can't ask where our legacy is anymore. We haven't had one since before Mooch, despite having the core group of our dynasty.

In any case I agree that Raye is not to blame. If we had a QB that Defenses had to respect I can just about guarantee that the play calling would not be so one sided and conservative. Conservative is great but as the last game showed us it's not something to hang your hat on if you wish to remain in the hunt for the entire season.

~Ceadder

That's it in a nutshell , no one and I mean no one is game planning to stop Shaun Hill , why would they, he doesn't scare anyone except himself . If the coaches don't trust him to make a play on 3rd down to ice the game then how are fans supposed to

Blame the- O-line
-Jimmy Raye
-Greg Manusky
-Mark Roman
-Dre Bly
-Singletary
It doesn't matter, we lose as team and win as a team. We were seconds away from being 3-0.

Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:

Originally posted by cNiner:

Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:

Originally posted by tommyncal:
. . . . he is calling the plays that Singletary wants. This is Singletary's philosphy . . conservative, conservative and more conservative. Singletary could override any call that Raye calls. Singletary has done a remarkable job, but I am having trouble getting onboard his bandwagon. You need a qb that defenses have to game plan for. These are the 49ers, where's our legacy?? The game is there to be won with a simple short pass and they can't, or choose not to, make a first down! That's alot of pressure to be put on any defense game after game. Singletary needs to change or the Scott needs to tell him to change.

Yeah its Raye's fault. We lose our best player on offense and Raye manages to squeeze 2 TD's out in the second half on the road against a top 5 defense and it's his fault. You guys a f**king ridiculous.
QuoteEdit

when hill was hot in 4th we should have kept throwing the ball insted run run punt !

Your defense has play great all game and they need a TD to win. You pass and they almost have have 3 minutes to score, you run and they have to burn thier last time out and have under 2 minutes to score a TD. Not a FG. If it were a FG it would be a different story. It was the right call. Prevent defense was the wrong call.

Run, Run, Run Punt was not the right call regardless if were up 1 or 4. 3rd and managable you need to throw the football. Shaun Hill looked impressive as can be on the drive they let him drop back and throw the football.. Jimmy Raye is a dumbs**t... The Vikings Defense cood could have called the game from a bathroom stall while taking a s**t nowhere near the field and knew exactly what we were going to do...

Blame whoever you want for this one, just know that the blame you place and the anger you have will only affect one person.

It was a gut-wrenching loss, but if you told me before the game that that would be the outcome without Gore for the ENTIRE GAME, I would be OK with that. Not that I am, but there's just not much sense in steaming over this one. We played great, and more importantly, left it all out on the field.

Originally posted by Stevec9932:

Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:

Originally posted by cNiner:

Originally posted by 49wyztoscore:

Originally posted by tommyncal:
. . . . he is calling the plays that Singletary wants. This is Singletary's philosphy . . conservative, conservative and more conservative. Singletary could override any call that Raye calls. Singletary has done a remarkable job, but I am having trouble getting onboard his bandwagon. You need a qb that defenses have to game plan for. These are the 49ers, where's our legacy?? The game is there to be won with a simple short pass and they can't, or choose not to, make a first down! That's alot of pressure to be put on any defense game after game. Singletary needs to change or the Scott needs to tell him to change.

Yeah its Raye's fault. We lose our best player on offense and Raye manages to squeeze 2 TD's out in the second half on the road against a top 5 defense and it's his fault. You guys a f**king ridiculous.
QuoteEdit

when hill was hot in 4th we should have kept throwing the ball insted run run punt !

Your defense has play great all game and they need a TD to win. You pass and they almost have have 3 minutes to score, you run and they have to burn thier last time out and have under 2 minutes to score a TD. Not a FG. If it were a FG it would be a different story. It was the right call. Prevent defense was the wrong call.

Run, Run, Run Punt was not the right call regardless if were up 1 or 4. 3rd and managable you need to throw the football. Shaun Hill looked impressive as can be on the drive they let him drop back and throw the football.. Jimmy Raye is a dumbs**t... The Vikings Defense cood could have called the game from a bathroom stall while taking a s**t nowhere near the field and knew exactly what we were going to do...

We didn't give a s**t if they knew exactly what we wanted to do. We wanted to, in order of prioroty:

1)Protect the ball. (Don't put it in the air deep in your own terrority, especially with Staley out and Sims in and the offense not being able to convert a passing 1st down any damn ways the prior umpteen possessions, even with Staley in.
2)Burn time off the clock
3)Force the Vikings to burn timeouts.
4) If we can't get a 1st down running, use our bad ass relaible punter to punt the ball deep into their territory.
5) Let the defense who had not allowed the Vikes to even get in field goal range the whole second half defend the 4 point lead, which would require about 80 yds of driving down the field i about a 75 seconds, with no timeouts, and then scoring a TD.

We succeeded in the first 4, and all but the last two seconds of the 5th, at which time it took a ridiculous throw, with a ridiculous catch, for the Vikings to win.

Not sure why people are having such a hard time with this. There was absolutely ZERO need to be unpredictable in that situation and about 100% need to keep things as predictable as possible.

I agree. Favre has a long history of winning games on one big play. When he played for Green Bay two years ago he beat Denver by throwing a bomb in overtime. One play, game over! By the way the cornerback that was beaten on the play... Dre Bly.

The Dallas Cowboys when Jimmy Johnson was coaching were a run-first team but they threw to get a closeout-first-down. You don't give these quarterbacks a second chance to beat you: Brady,Peyton Manning, Brett Favre,Eli Manning,Kurt Warner, and Big Ben. Those guys will beat you if there's a way. Eli tore up the Cowboys last week and Peyton tore up the Dolphins on a last drive and Kurt Warner set a record last week and Big Ben will either run or throw for a big play to beat the opponent. Romo,Delhomme, and others are not consistent at the end of games but the guys I mentioned before have confidence they can lead their teams to victory everytime.

Originally posted by D-NOTTE:
I just hate that we didnt even try to get the first down........ I get the reasoning but you dont do that with a HOF QB on the other side