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So... is it Hill or is it our W.R.'s?

Originally posted by kronik:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
The issue isn't Hill or the WRs. We know what those guys are capable of doing, just look at last season's offense. If I remember right, we were right near the top of the league with passes of 20+ yards.
The issue is Raye's playcalling and Sings desire to be a running team.

20+ yards when J.T. O'Sullivan was starting. Not with Hill.

Hill had 27 20+ pass completions in 8 starts last year. Double that and that's 54 which would put him 3rd in the NFL behind only Drew Brees (66) & Jay Cutler (55). Even more impressive is that Hill's offense was a pared-down version compared to when J.T. O'Sullivan was our QB the first half of the year. So again, these arguments about Hill's weak arm is ignorant.

Umm, how many of those were 20 + yards in the air?????


So I reviewed the highlight reel against the Cards last year: (I only considered the vertical passing distance, not the extra yardage to the sideline or the yards the WR got after the catch):

25 yard TD pass along the right sideline
35 yard corner route to the left sideline
30 yard TD down the middle of the field
23 yard pass down the middle of the field
25 yard out pattern to the right sideline

So, whatever it is they are complaining about is total bogus. Many of those sideline routes passes traveled well over what I stated above, were right on a dime, were thrown with NO hesitation and put the WR in position to get out of bounds or pick up RAC.

How many of Jay Cutlers or Drew Brees were passes over 20 yards?
Originally posted by dhp318:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
The issue isn't Hill or the WRs. We know what those guys are capable of doing, just look at last season's offense. If I remember right, we were right near the top of the league with passes of 20+ yards.
The issue is Raye's playcalling and Sings desire to be a running team.

20+ yards when J.T. O'Sullivan was starting. Not with Hill.

Hill had 27 20+ pass completions in 8 starts last year. Double that and that's 54 which would put him 3rd in the NFL behind only Drew Brees (66) & Jay Cutler (55). Even more impressive is that Hill's offense was a pared-down version compared to when J.T. O'Sullivan was our QB the first half of the year. So again, these arguments about Hill's weak arm is ignorant.

sure, that's great and all, he's capable of throwing 20 yards... I think I am too. But it's about the velocity and fitting the balls into tight windows, and frankly, hill's arms limits him from throwing the ball deep without a lot of WR separation.

Now here is a person who knows their football.

I have to give credit to Hill, he does recognize (even if he wont' say it) his arm limitations and simply won't make a throw he can't make. Unfortunatly, the oppossing defenses also recognize Hill simply cannot make certain throws as well and so they really don't have to worry about certain parts of the field.

Im very interested in how Hill plays this weekend against the Vikes because I think the Vikes defense is going to invite Hill to make and prove he can hit WR's downfield.
  • ZWhite135
  • Info N/A
stop the negativity theres way too much on this site.... first of all its neither, when have we had to throw the ball down field? we have been up almost the entire season, when we were down, Hill drove us for the score. in the NFL when ur up there is no reason to take the chance... we cant judge them yet we havent needed to put the ball down field at this point... my opinion is they are doin exactly what they have been asked
Originally posted by ZWhite135:
stop the negativity theres way too much on this site.... first of all its neither, when have we had to throw the ball down field? we have been up almost the entire season, when we were down, Hill drove us for the score. in the NFL when ur up there is no reason to take the chance... we cant judge them yet we havent needed to put the ball down field at this point... my opinion is they are doin exactly what they have been asked

Fans are always enamored with the big-arm QB (the "sexy" QB). However, in the real world, that's very far down on the list of what makes a QB truly successful.
Singletary on Hill and the offense:

Singletary said he wants the defense, running game - and specifically, the offensive line - to be the areas on which the 49ers will rely this season.

The 49ers want to control the game and the clock with its running attack. They have accomplished that, as well, with an average six-minute advantage in time of possession.

“I believe that what he’s doing right now has been good enough the first two games,” Singletary said. “Going forward, to start with, we’re going to run the ball. We’re going to have to run the ball, and as we run the ball and Shaun Hill makes some plays here and there and as he gets more comfortable, he can open it up a bit.”

This probably isn't much a surprise to anyone but it does show you that this offensive philosophy of being conservative starts with Singletary and as Hill and the rest of the team gets more used to Raye's (NEW OFFENSE) Hill will be allowed to open up the offense more down the road. This is a good sign. Once the o-line solidifies, the WR's can be counted on, etc. we should start to see new wrinkles in the offense.

I'm hoping they start allowing Hill to audible out at times. That alone can REALLY make this offense more effective. No question.
[ Edited by NCommand on Sep 24, 2009 at 9:53 AM ]
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by dhp318:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by AKfanster:
The issue isn't Hill or the WRs. We know what those guys are capable of doing, just look at last season's offense. If I remember right, we were right near the top of the league with passes of 20+ yards.
The issue is Raye's playcalling and Sings desire to be a running team.

20+ yards when J.T. O'Sullivan was starting. Not with Hill.

Hill had 27 20+ pass completions in 8 starts last year. Double that and that's 54 which would put him 3rd in the NFL behind only Drew Brees (66) & Jay Cutler (55). Even more impressive is that Hill's offense was a pared-down version compared to when J.T. O'Sullivan was our QB the first half of the year. So again, these arguments about Hill's weak arm is ignorant.

sure, that's great and all, he's capable of throwing 20 yards... I think I am too. But it's about the velocity and fitting the balls into tight windows, and frankly, hill's arms limits him from throwing the ball deep without a lot of WR separation.

Now here is a person who knows their football.

I have to give credit to Hill, he does recognize (even if he wont' say it) his arm limitations and simply won't make a throw he can't make. Unfortunatly, the oppossing defenses also recognize Hill simply cannot make certain throws as well and so they really don't have to worry about certain parts of the field.

Im very interested in how Hill plays this weekend against the Vikes because I think the Vikes defense is going to invite Hill to make and prove he can hit WR's downfield.

I don't understand at all what you're getting at. Hill can throw the 15-20 yard out and make completions. It doesn't matter if it looks ugly getting there, as long as it actually does.

This team is all about the running game, and they're going to make plays regardless of how many people are put in the box. Both of the 75+ yard runs Gore had last Sunday are with 8-10 men in the box. People said the same thing last week that the Seahawks were going to try and test Hill and look how that turned out.

The Niners are going to do what they do best: pound the rock, make long drives and wear the defense down. Hill doesn't NEED to have a huge arm. As long as he moves the chains, scores touchdowns and wins games no one else should give a s**t. With this logic JTO should still be the starter. I'd rather have a QB who manages the game and doesn't make any stupid mistakes then one who can throw the ball 60 yards downfield and can't do anything else (Jamarcus Russell).
Originally posted by NCommand:
Singletary on Hill and the offense:

Singletary said he wants the defense, running game - and specifically, the offensive line - to be the areas on which the 49ers will rely this season.

The 49ers want to control the game and the clock with its running attack. They have accomplished that, as well, with an average six-minute advantage in time of possession.

“I believe that what he’s doing right now has been good enough the first two games,” Singletary said. “Going forward, to start with, we’re going to run the ball. We’re going to have to run the ball, and as we run the ball and Shaun Hill makes some plays here and there and as he gets more comfortable, he can open it up a bit.”

This probably isn't much a surprise to anyone but it does show you that this offensive philosophy of being conservative starts with Singletary and as Hill and the rest of the team gets more used to Raye's (NEW OFFENSE) Hill will be allowed to open up the offense more down the road. This is a good sign. Once the o-line solidifies, the WR's can be counted on, etc. we should start to see new wrinkles in the offense.

I'm hoping they start allowing Hill to audible out at times. That alone can REALLY make this offense more effective. No question.

But, it has been reported during the last 2 games, that Hill has attempted a total of 9 passes downfield mid-range to deep range and only connected 1 time out of 9 times.

Hill has to improve with that percentage.
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Singletary on Hill and the offense:

Singletary said he wants the defense, running game - and specifically, the offensive line - to be the areas on which the 49ers will rely this season.

The 49ers want to control the game and the clock with its running attack. They have accomplished that, as well, with an average six-minute advantage in time of possession.

“I believe that what he’s doing right now has been good enough the first two games,” Singletary said. “Going forward, to start with, we’re going to run the ball. We’re going to have to run the ball, and as we run the ball and Shaun Hill makes some plays here and there and as he gets more comfortable, he can open it up a bit.”

This probably isn't much a surprise to anyone but it does show you that this offensive philosophy of being conservative starts with Singletary and as Hill and the rest of the team gets more used to Raye's (NEW OFFENSE) Hill will be allowed to open up the offense more down the road. This is a good sign. Once the o-line solidifies, the WR's can be counted on, etc. we should start to see new wrinkles in the offense.

I'm hoping they start allowing Hill to audible out at times. That alone can REALLY make this offense more effective. No question.

But, it has been reported during the last 2 games, that Hill has attempted a total of 9 passes downfield mid-range to deep range and only connected 1 time out of 9 times.

Hill has to improve with that percentage.

NOTE: Against SEA, Hill attempted 4 passes over 20 yards. 1 was completed but called back. The other was dropped by Bruce.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Singletary on Hill and the offense:

Singletary said he wants the defense, running game - and specifically, the offensive line - to be the areas on which the 49ers will rely this season.

The 49ers want to control the game and the clock with its running attack. They have accomplished that, as well, with an average six-minute advantage in time of possession.

“I believe that what he’s doing right now has been good enough the first two games,” Singletary said. “Going forward, to start with, we’re going to run the ball. We’re going to have to run the ball, and as we run the ball and Shaun Hill makes some plays here and there and as he gets more comfortable, he can open it up a bit.”

This probably isn't much a surprise to anyone but it does show you that this offensive philosophy of being conservative starts with Singletary and as Hill and the rest of the team gets more used to Raye's (NEW OFFENSE) Hill will be allowed to open up the offense more down the road. This is a good sign. Once the o-line solidifies, the WR's can be counted on, etc. we should start to see new wrinkles in the offense.

I'm hoping they start allowing Hill to audible out at times. That alone can REALLY make this offense more effective. No question.

But, it has been reported during the last 2 games, that Hill has attempted a total of 9 passes downfield mid-range to deep range and only connected 1 time out of 9 times.

Hill has to improve with that percentage.

NOTE: Against SEA, Hill attempted 4 passes over 20 yards. 1 was completed but called back. The other was dropped by Bruce.

I'd have to go back again at the few times and review them but yeah, the 50 yarder on a dime to Bruce, the called back one to Walker. What about the dropped TD pass by Morgan? Either way, 9 passes is nothing and % of those passes decrease with each yard. The bottom line is Singletary/Raye are NOT asking Hill to take more then a few shots a game and those passes are hard to hit when all game you've been handing the ball off and only passing to RB's and TE's. QB...ALL QB's...need to get into a rhythm.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Singletary on Hill and the offense:

Singletary said he wants the defense, running game - and specifically, the offensive line - to be the areas on which the 49ers will rely this season.

The 49ers want to control the game and the clock with its running attack. They have accomplished that, as well, with an average six-minute advantage in time of possession.

“I believe that what he’s doing right now has been good enough the first two games,” Singletary said. “Going forward, to start with, we’re going to run the ball. We’re going to have to run the ball, and as we run the ball and Shaun Hill makes some plays here and there and as he gets more comfortable, he can open it up a bit.”

This probably isn't much a surprise to anyone but it does show you that this offensive philosophy of being conservative starts with Singletary and as Hill and the rest of the team gets more used to Raye's (NEW OFFENSE) Hill will be allowed to open up the offense more down the road. This is a good sign. Once the o-line solidifies, the WR's can be counted on, etc. we should start to see new wrinkles in the offense.

I'm hoping they start allowing Hill to audible out at times. That alone can REALLY make this offense more effective. No question.

/thread
Originally posted by SybErkRimInAL:
hill. He can make the short throws. Hitting a receiver in stride, 30 yards down the field is another story.

That pass to Bruce @ AZ looked nice. No velocity on his stuff though. I think its the bad pass blocking (especially the interior) and the some of the play calling. IMO, I don't think Raye is as confident in our QBs, as of yet, to let them loose and that's the reason for the conservative calls. I do believe we need better Play-Action calls, especially when our run game gets going, like it did last week. It will help Hill a lot!!! But again we need to block better.

We are not Tards or the Saints, so don't expect exotic, down the field pass calls all the time.
Originally posted by babbabooey:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Singletary on Hill and the offense:

Singletary said he wants the defense, running game - and specifically, the offensive line - to be the areas on which the 49ers will rely this season.

The 49ers want to control the game and the clock with its running attack. They have accomplished that, as well, with an average six-minute advantage in time of possession.

“I believe that what he’s doing right now has been good enough the first two games,” Singletary said. “Going forward, to start with, we’re going to run the ball. We’re going to have to run the ball, and as we run the ball and Shaun Hill makes some plays here and there and as he gets more comfortable, he can open it up a bit.”

This probably isn't much a surprise to anyone but it does show you that this offensive philosophy of being conservative starts with Singletary and as Hill and the rest of the team gets more used to Raye's (NEW OFFENSE) Hill will be allowed to open up the offense more down the road. This is a good sign. Once the o-line solidifies, the WR's can be counted on, etc. we should start to see new wrinkles in the offense.

I'm hoping they start allowing Hill to audible out at times. That alone can REALLY make this offense more effective. No question.

/thread

If we can and we're really going in that direction, I like the idea a lot. If we can slowly build our passing game throughout the season and roll that into playoffs it's a great strategy. I can sleep on that.

New Orleans - this isn't the first time the aints have come out blazing. But I wouldn't be suspired if late in the year teams catch on and those number aren't as astounding.
[ Edited by pannin4gold on Sep 24, 2009 at 10:46 AM ]
  • JC49
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 169
It's Raye, Raye, Raye, and by extention Singletary who picked him. Everyone calls Hill a game manager. Well he's doing just that, managing the offense he's given, all the while knowing his head coach is averse to taking risks. If forced to choose between WRs and QB I guess I would go with WRs. Singletary has confidence in hill. If the WRs were the kind of receivers who came down with jump balls maybe they would inspire the coaches to go for it more. I worry we are creating a team culture where everyone is afraid to do anything daring because the downside will turn you into a J.T.O'Sullivan in Singeltary's view and get you in hot water. To have success our players will have to be consistently dominant if our schemes never surprise anyone.
Originally posted by JC49:
It's Raye, Raye, Raye, and by extention Singletary who picked him. Everyone calls Hill a game manager. Well he's doing just that, managing the offense he's given, all the while knowing his head coach is averse to taking risks. If forced to choose between WRs and QB I guess I would go with WRs. Singletary has confidence in hill. If the WRs were the kind of receivers who came down with jump balls maybe they would inspire the coaches to go for it more. I worry we are creating a team culture where everyone is afraid to do anything daring because the downside will turn you into a J.T.O'Sullivan in Singeltary's view and get you in hot water. To have success our players will have to be consistently dominant if our schemes never surprise anyone.

Raye's offense the way I understand it is very similar to a Norv Turner offense.

First and foremost, be run domenient

Secondly, when you cross the 50 yard line, take some deep shots downfield.

Is it just me, because I have not seen Hill taking those down field shots. However, I have seen Morgan OPEN downfield and Hill ignoring him
Originally posted by BigMar:
Originally posted by JC49:
It's Raye, Raye, Raye, and by extention Singletary who picked him. Everyone calls Hill a game manager. Well he's doing just that, managing the offense he's given, all the while knowing his head coach is averse to taking risks. If forced to choose between WRs and QB I guess I would go with WRs. Singletary has confidence in hill. If the WRs were the kind of receivers who came down with jump balls maybe they would inspire the coaches to go for it more. I worry we are creating a team culture where everyone is afraid to do anything daring because the downside will turn you into a J.T.O'Sullivan in Singeltary's view and get you in hot water. To have success our players will have to be consistently dominant if our schemes never surprise anyone.

Raye's offense the way I understand it is very similar to a Norv Turner offense.

First and foremost, be run domenient

Secondly, when you cross the 50 yard line, take some deep shots downfield.

Is it just me, because I have not seen Hill taking those down field shots. However, I have seen Morgan OPEN downfield and Hill ignoring him

You're also correct BigMar in that Raye's offense is similar to Turner (who consequently lost a game by running it on 4th and 2 up the gut into the strength of the Raven's defense despite his RB only have 30 yards rushing all day). That said, Norv's offense seems to be way more adaptive and designed more around balance and CAN be tailored for a game like last week where Rivers had to throw for 400 yards. Raye? I'm not so sure. But it does appear he's working Hill in very slowly, trying to establish a run-dominant offense, etc.

It's funny, when Singletary was talking about his philosophy on winning, he didn't even MENTION the QB "or" WR's as being a focus. They are after-thoughts.

But you are right too in that there have been plays where Morgan was open or Bruce or Battle, even Davis but Hill has not thrown to them. The big difference I see between Hill this year vs. last year is that he won't pass this year unless that receiver is WIDE open and it's a high % pass...this plays into what JC49 is talking about...about how Singletary is teaching our offense, in general, how not to lose (conservative) as opposed to playing to win (aggressive).

But given what Singletary stated above, it sounds like with each week, as Hill and the entire offense settles down and learns this new offense, he'll have Raye open up the playbook a little more (but not too much).