Crabtree Discussion Thread

Originally posted by srenin_evoli:
Bill Simmons of ESPN gives his take on the Crabtree situation. Scroll down to near the bottom of the page and read the Great Call of the Week box. Definitely some holes in his analogy, but funny nonetheless.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090910

Not the perfect analogy, but his argument has some strong similarities to this evil poster.

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by Bill Simmons:
Crabtree is being called crazy, but really, he just believes in his own talent. He really WOULD throw away this season to prove a point. That's not crazy, that's conviction! Michael Crabtree might be ruining his career and setting hundreds of thousands of dollars on fire, but at least he earned my Miller Lite Great Call of the Week.

A. If he believes in his talent so much, why not take the fair offer and "prove a point" when he has some negotiating leverage?

B. Crabtree is possible "ruining his career and setting hundreds of thousands [actually millions] of dollars on fire" and gets a Great Call out of it?
The moment you characterize the offer as fair, and that is the hangup. Crabtree doesn't believe the 10th overall slot in guaranteed and total money is fair compensation, and I think he's got a strong argument.

Fair is a subjective word in your statement.

Originally posted by tohara3:
Moving fast towards those 200 pages

oh yea, 200 here we come

Originally posted by lamontb:

Originally posted by NickV:

Originally posted by Thizz415:

Originally posted by NickV:

Originally posted by Thizz415:
ehh. If he signs then he is a niner and i will support him, if he doesn't the we trade his ass to a weak team or a stupid team will to give way more.

Call washington. Tell them we want their first round pick for the next 5 years. Snyder may go for it.

Im sure the cowboys/jags/ or bills after the season, they need a WR and i doubt TO will stay there once his deal is done.

What ever happened to the WR the bills drafted in the first round last season? i think he played ball at Indiana? I'm gonna guess and say his name is James Hardy?

I think they moved him to 4th string.

ACL surgery. He's trying to come back, but will be on the PUP for now.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by Bill Simmons:
Crabtree is being called crazy, but really, he just believes in his own talent. He really WOULD throw away this season to prove a point. That's not crazy, that's conviction! Michael Crabtree might be ruining his career and setting hundreds of thousands of dollars on fire, but at least he earned my Miller Lite Great Call of the Week.

A. If he believes in his talent so much, why not take the fair offer and "prove a point" when he has some negotiating leverage?

B. Crabtree is possible "ruining his career and setting hundreds of thousands [actually millions] of dollars on fire" and gets a Great Call out of it?

The moment you characterize the offer as fair, and that is the hangup. Crabtree doesn't believe the 10th overall slot in guaranteed and total money is fair compensation, and I think he's got a strong argument.

Fair is a subjective word in your statement.

compensation for what? he has nothing to be compensated for. you don't get paid in college football. no one picked him before us so he should receive money at the slot where he was picked. he will be compensated if he proves to be one of the best WR's in the league.

[ Edited by IdentityCrisis on Sep 10, 2009 at 14:18:36 ]

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
That is another poor argument. Crabtree does have leverage, as the Niners cannot force him to put on a uniform. The time I see Shaun Hill walking behind Crabtree with a gun pointed to his head is the time when the statement you made is accurate.

The lesson learned will not be the Niners are tough guys, and won't crack. It is that they lost their first rounder in a contract dispute.

You are choosing to only see things through one side of the lens. Try looking from another angle.

What leverage does he have? He loses a year of football and will likely get less money next year. SF loses a first round pick, or it could be downgraded to a second or third round pick. Big f**kin' deal.

Give me another angle from which to look at this situation. I've looked at this from Crabtree's angle. Not to get all biblical, but all I see is greed and pride.

edit: And so far, all you've done is tell me I'm making poor arguments without backing it up. You haven't made a decent argument yet (that I've seen).

Also, I really do want to know your opinion on what Crabtree could be traded for in March.

You stated earlier that Crabtree has zero leverage, but then you state in this post the Niners lose their first rounder by him sitting out.

So, you have changed your mind. Crabtree has leverage.

Originally posted by Thorhawk:
Sitting out the season just doesnt happen. It would look bad for the 49ers and Crabtree if that happened.

Smartest thing I have read yet...

Nobody wants to lose in this situation. The biggest possible way for BOTH parties to lose is if a deal does not get done and Crabtree enters next year's draft.

There is no magic date where we will all know he is truly going to sit out the year. This is a negotiation and right now both sides have dug in by the look of it. Eventually both will look to save face and meet in the middle somewhere.

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
That is another poor argument. Crabtree does have leverage, as the Niners cannot force him to put on a uniform. The time I see Shaun Hill walking behind Crabtree with a gun pointed to his head is the time when the statement you made is accurate.

The lesson learned will not be the Niners are tough guys, and won't crack. It is that they lost their first rounder in a contract dispute.

You are choosing to only see things through one side of the lens. Try looking from another angle.

What leverage does he have? He loses a year of football and will likely get less money next year. SF loses a first round pick, or it could be downgraded to a second or third round pick. Big f**kin' deal.

Give me another angle from which to look at this situation. I've looked at this from Crabtree's angle. Not to get all biblical, but all I see is greed and pride.

edit: And so far, all you've done is tell me I'm making poor arguments without backing it up. You haven't made a decent argument yet (that I've seen).

Also, I really do want to know your opinion on what Crabtree could be traded for in March.

As for my arguments, I have written extensively in this thread and in another thread. In some posts, they were as long as a typical newspaper article. It would take another hour or so to retype the enter argument, but please feel free to dig back a couple hundred pages if you wish.

As for the value that Crabtree could be traded for, nobody knows at this point. It may be that a team is willing to offer a mid-late first rounder, or something outside the first round. Each team will need to assess their needs after the season.

Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
I think the argument of "the Niners' management will look weak and fragile, and will be taken advantage in future draft" is one of the weaker arguments on the side of management. History does not show this to be true.

The best argument is that Crabtree has no leverage.

If SF refuses to give in and trades him or loses his rights, though, they will show that they will 100 percent not pay anyone over slot. This WILL discourage future draft picks from holding out. I don't think anyone thinks that rookies will start walking all over SF's management if they cave and sign Crabtree.

That is another poor argument. Crabtree does have leverage, as the Niners cannot force him to put on a uniform. The time I see Shaun Hill walking behind Crabtree with a gun pointed to his head is the time when the statement you made is accurate.

The lesson learned will not be the Niners are tough guys, and won't crack. It is that they lost their first rounder in a contract dispute.

You are choosing to only see things through one side of the lens. Try looking from another angle.

Giving in to his demand doesn't not affect future draft picks. Next years class will have to deal with the knowledge that there might be a lock out in 2011, so they can not use the "sitting out the season" threat. There should be a new CBA after that which will probably included a rookie pay scale. There is more to this dispute then any of us know.

I agree that storm clouds are brewing. We need to enjoy football the next couple of years, because we might see an extended offseason if a new CBA is not agreed upon.

Hey Maddog, who has more leverage, Crabtree or the 9ers?

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
That is another poor argument. Crabtree does have leverage, as the Niners cannot force him to put on a uniform. The time I see Shaun Hill walking behind Crabtree with a gun pointed to his head is the time when the statement you made is accurate.

The lesson learned will not be the Niners are tough guys, and won't crack. It is that they lost their first rounder in a contract dispute.

You are choosing to only see things through one side of the lens. Try looking from another angle.

What leverage does he have? He loses a year of football and will likely get less money next year. SF loses a first round pick, or it could be downgraded to a second or third round pick. Big f**kin' deal.

Give me another angle from which to look at this situation. I've looked at this from Crabtree's angle. Not to get all biblical, but all I see is greed and pride.

edit: And so far, all you've done is tell me I'm making poor arguments without backing it up. You haven't made a decent argument yet (that I've seen).

Also, I really do want to know your opinion on what Crabtree could be traded for in March.

As for my arguments, I have written extensively in this thread and in another thread. In some posts, they were as long as a typical newspaper article. It would take another hour or so to retype the enter argument, but please feel free to dig back a couple hundred pages if you wish.

As for the value that Crabtree could be traded for, nobody knows at this point. It may be that a team is willing to offer a mid-late first rounder, or something outside the first round. Each team will need to assess their needs after the season.

Regarding his special situation that you have referred to multiple times, do you agree with Deion that Crab's should be paid in the $30mil range...or do you agree that, that is crazy?

Originally posted by baltien:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Ninerbowl6:
This is going to be an epic fail for the front office.....I feel like the niners are the new Bengals.....pay him the damn money and let's ball....we've been waiting for a true #1 since Owens left.....these guys don't grow on trees.

And please stop comparing him to Owens...because it's not even close. He's a good kid getting bad advice...it has nothing to do with his attitude.

You clearly dont know what your talking about.

You get pushed around by one 1st round rookie, you will get pushed around by all of them.

Can you support your baseless claim ?

Has a team ever paid anyone higher then what they were slotted for ?

Cleveland and Brady Quinn.

QBs are the exception.

What positions do Barry Sanders, Darrelle Revis and Larry Fitzgerald play? There are a lot of examples of non-QB's who were paid outside the slot.

And because there have been SOME irregularities in the slotting system over time that means that WE should be the ones to break it again?

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

I'd do just what the front office is doing, and stand pat. If Crabs is the man like I'm sure he thinks he is, then he should show it ON THE FIELD. Not whine about where he thinks he should have been drafted (because that doesn't make any damn sense). And come time he's a free agent, he'll get the big payday that's he's looking for now.

Fact is, Crabs is NOT being low balled here, so anyone trying to paint the 9ers offer as unfair is absurd. I say call his bluff. Let him sit the season out if we can't trade him first, and cry to some other team about where he "should have been drafted" next year (where he'll be lucky to go top 15).

The Niners don't have to do anything. It is their perogative. I am just crushing the argument that the Niners are tied to some concrete "slotting", which is simply untrue. It would be irregular, but I think the situation with Crabtree is irregular.

Originally posted by baltien:

Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Ninerbowl6:
This is going to be an epic fail for the front office.....I feel like the niners are the new Bengals.....pay him the damn money and let's ball....we've been waiting for a true #1 since Owens left.....these guys don't grow on trees.

And please stop comparing him to Owens...because it's not even close. He's a good kid getting bad advice...it has nothing to do with his attitude.

You clearly dont know what your talking about.

You get pushed around by one 1st round rookie, you will get pushed around by all of them.

Can you support your baseless claim ?

Has a team ever paid anyone higher then what they were slotted for ?

Cleveland and Brady Quinn.

QBs are the exception.

What positions do Barry Sanders, Darrelle Revis and Larry Fitzgerald play? There are a lot of examples of non-QB's who were paid outside the slot.

I guess it just proves that the niners don't think hes worth more than his slotted value.

So any team that doesn't decide to pay a pick more than their slotted value is being stingy? That's a doosy, considering that most other NFL teams do the same thing, they just lucked up to not get a player who demanded more.

But while we're on topic...is there anything in the world that we CANT blame the 49ers front office for?

The question you have to ask yourself is: Is Crabtree just any other player? And, that is where the core of the argument lies. On draft day, he was certainly not just any other 10th overall. But, since contract talks have started, fans have begun to embrace the idea that he's just your average 10th overall.

Originally posted by jreff22:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
That is another poor argument. Crabtree does have leverage, as the Niners cannot force him to put on a uniform. The time I see Shaun Hill walking behind Crabtree with a gun pointed to his head is the time when the statement you made is accurate.

The lesson learned will not be the Niners are tough guys, and won't crack. It is that they lost their first rounder in a contract dispute.

You are choosing to only see things through one side of the lens. Try looking from another angle.

What leverage does he have? He loses a year of football and will likely get less money next year. SF loses a first round pick, or it could be downgraded to a second or third round pick. Big f**kin' deal.

Give me another angle from which to look at this situation. I've looked at this from Crabtree's angle. Not to get all biblical, but all I see is greed and pride.

edit: And so far, all you've done is tell me I'm making poor arguments without backing it up. You haven't made a decent argument yet (that I've seen).

Also, I really do want to know your opinion on what Crabtree could be traded for in March.

As for my arguments, I have written extensively in this thread and in another thread. In some posts, they were as long as a typical newspaper article. It would take another hour or so to retype the enter argument, but please feel free to dig back a couple hundred pages if you wish.

As for the value that Crabtree could be traded for, nobody knows at this point. It may be that a team is willing to offer a mid-late first rounder, or something outside the first round. Each team will need to assess their needs after the season.

Regarding his special situation that you have referred to multiple times, do you agree with Deion that Crab's should be paid in the $30mil range...or do you agree that, that is crazy?

No he was picked at the 10 spot so he gets paid as so. Rodgers didn't get 10% less than Smith when he "could" have been the 1st pick instead of Smith, same goes for Quinn. It is what it is. He will sign. He will lose to much money if he doesn't. What Deon said was just a ploy. You cant lose what you don't have is not a logical and realistic statement. No team will pay him that much. I expect Crabs to sign at the lastest on Saturday IMO.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by KRS-1:
From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.

And we don't have to. SF offered Crabtree what he's worth. He was the No. 10 pick in the draft. He was offerd more than the 11th and less than the ninth. Crabtree has ZERO leverage. If I were SF, I'd laugh at him and his agent if they tried to negotiate from their position. Most logical people would.

Worth is based on what the market will offer.

Zero leverage is a bad argument. Crabtree doesn't have to play. That is his leverage.

As Mike Sando astutely pointed out, Crabtree was a "value" pick, not a "need", pick by the Niners. Given the run heavy offense the Niners intend to employ, they will not be lost this year if Crabtree sits out. If the Niners were trying to use the same kind of offense as an Arizona with the WR's they have now, then the Niners would be quite desperate for Crabtree and he would have some leverage.

The Niners would LIKE to have Crabtree, but do not NEED him. Crabtree would like to have the money the Niners do have, but apparently, according to Sanders, he doesn't need it. If Crabtree really doesn't need millions of dollars right now, and doesn't care about playing in the NFL right now, wasting a year of productivity and potential money earning, and he has no plans to budge, and, the Niners, who have everything to lose if they cave-in to his terrorist demands, then I can see a year long hold out.

In short, though Crabtree appears to have talent, his leverage is miniscule, because, as of yet, he is an unproven NFL talent, and the Niners do not NEED him for a run heavy offense. In the words of a very wise man, "you can't miss what you don't have." The Niners will get value for Crabtree whether or not he signs, while Crabtree risks the possibility of ending up somewhere else where he will make less money.

Good luck Crabs, you'll need it.