Crabtree Discussion Thread

Originally posted by Thorhawk:

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by Thorhawk:
Losing or wasting a 1st round pick is a recipe for disaster.

Crabtree has more to lose in this situation.

Either way the 49ers still look like buffoons for getting their 1st round pick under contract.

I don't think they do. I'm sure others agree. Crabtree decided not to accept a slotted contract. SF looks stingy, but not like buffoons.

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by BigMar:
Just a reminder....the 9ers have 2 first round picks in 2010 draft they will have to negotiate with and sign. Therfore, they Cannot cave in to Craptree outrages demands as that will clearly set a bad stage for our 2010 1st round negotiations.

9er are being MORE than fair and should not get strongarmed by Craptree.

No one knows for sure if paying Crabtree will have a negative effect on next years picks or not. Will never know until next year.

Stop speculating when you have no basis for your claim.

This statement you are arguing against is being parrotted without any thought at all. If anyone has studied the league, first round picks, irregular contracts, they cannot find a team who had problems in the following years after offering a slot busting contract.

If someone has one example, please share. Until then, drop this silly argument. It has no basis historically in the league, and is purely a scare tactic.

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Ninerbowl6:
This is going to be an epic fail for the front office.....I feel like the niners are the new Bengals.....pay him the damn money and let's ball....we've been waiting for a true #1 since Owens left.....these guys don't grow on trees.

And please stop comparing him to Owens...because it's not even close. He's a good kid getting bad advice...it has nothing to do with his attitude.

You clearly dont know what your talking about.

You get pushed around by one 1st round rookie, you will get pushed around by all of them.

Can you support your baseless claim ?

Has a team ever paid anyone higher then what they were slotted for ?

Cleveland and Brady Quinn.

QBs are the exception.

What positions do Barry Sanders, Darrelle Revis and Larry Fitzgerald play? There are a lot of examples of non-QB's who were paid outside the slot.

And because there have been SOME irregularities in the slotting system over time that means that WE should be the ones to break it again?

Sorry, but I have to disagree.

I'd do just what the front office is doing, and stand pat. If Crabs is the man like I'm sure he thinks he is, then he should show it ON THE FIELD. Not whine about where he thinks he should have been drafted (because that doesn't make any damn sense). And come time he's a free agent, he'll get the big payday that's he's looking for now.

Fact is, Crabs is NOT being low balled here, so anyone trying to paint the 9ers offer as unfair is absurd. I say call his bluff. Let him sit the season out if we can't trade him first, and cry to some other team about where he "should have been drafted" next year (where he'll be lucky to go top 15).

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by KRS-1:
Seems most teams decided to fill needs as opposed to selecting the BPA. Outside of the Jets no team traded up into the top 10, as again it is costly especially when factoring in what one has to also pay the draft pick as well.

Or they didn't think he was the bpa. The point is that the only evidence to support the fact that Crabtree was a top-3 talent was that analysts said he was.

My point: I don't care what he thinks he's worth. He's been offered a fair deal. He's holding out for more money that he won't get. What he's doing is f**king stupid. Period.

I bet there are teams out there who if they had taken him at 10 would be willing to pay him, unlike us. Why ? Probably because players with ceilings as high as his being taken at 10 don't come around or happen often if hardly ever.

And FWIW some of those analysts are former players and or NFL execs and know talent when they see it.

The league is full of history of draftee's with ceilings higher than what has come before falling right on their ass and not amounting to anything.

Those draftee's however rarely ever fall like Crabtree did.

Normally when you get a player like that you want to get him signed. Does it really seem like the 49ers really want to get Crabtree signed with their stance ?

Look here's the deal. The guy is unproven, he could be the second coming of Jerry Rice, but he damn sure isn't until he proves otherwise, which is far from an easy thing to do (making the jump from being a top talent in the collegiate's to being one in the NFL). If this was an easy correlation, there wouldn't be much issue to this s**t, people wouldn't fall or rise in the draft at all..they would be slotted and it would pan out the way it was slotted and everything would be nice and tidy. HOWEVER, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY, TOP TALENTS IN THE COLLEGIATE MORE OFTEN THAN NOT DON'T PAN OUT AS A TOP NFL TALENT NO MATTER WHICH SLOT THEY ARE DRAFTED AT, NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY HAVE FALLEN OR RISEN. IT'S A CRAP SHOOT THAT THEY WILL TRANSLATE INTO A TOP NFL TALENT.

You can't fault the organization for adhering to good business sense. They are investing in a top collegiate talent that is unproven in a league with a history full of top collegiate talents who have fallen and/or risen in the draft and have not translated into top NFL talents.


The fact is this: It's the NFL, it's an entirely different animal than the collegiates....you gotta prove yourself against the best now, every week. If you do, you get rewarded with a big contract, if you don't, your sent packing in one way or another, and you take a big cut along the way.

Another bad argument. Come on guys, rally. There are good arguments against Crabtree's position. The statement that "he hasn't proven anything" applies to all rookies, whether they are seventh rounder or the first overall. Making this statement does not to add to your argument, it only argues that all high-priced rookies should not gain a sizable first contract.

This is not a debate about the rookie salary structure, but about the fair market compensation for Michael Crabtree.

People, rally.

Originally posted by Thorhawk:

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by Thorhawk:
Losing or wasting a 1st round pick is a recipe for disaster.

Crabtree has more to lose in this situation.

Either way the 49ers still look like buffoons for getting their 1st round pick under contract.

I am affriad you are right.... There is no way this looks good for us even though I do believe it is the Craptree camps fault.

Originally posted by dirtysouthniner:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Ninerbowl6:
This is going to be an epic fail for the front office.....I feel like the niners are the new Bengals.....pay him the damn money and let's ball....we've been waiting for a true #1 since Owens left.....these guys don't grow on trees.

And please stop comparing him to Owens...because it's not even close. He's a good kid getting bad advice...it has nothing to do with his attitude.

You clearly dont know what your talking about.

You get pushed around by one 1st round rookie, you will get pushed around by all of them.

Can you support your baseless claim ?

Has a team ever paid anyone higher then what they were slotted for ?

Cleveland and Brady Quinn.

QBs are the exception.

What positions do Barry Sanders, Darrelle Revis and Larry Fitzgerald play? There are a lot of examples of non-QB's who were paid outside the slot.

I guess it just proves that the niners don't think hes worth more than his slotted value.

So any team that doesn't decide to pay a pick more than their slotted value is being stingy? That's a doosy, considering that most other NFL teams do the same thing, they just lucked up to not get a player who demanded more.

But while we're on topic...is there anything in the world that we CANT blame the 49ers front office for?

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by KRS-1:
From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.

And we don't have to. SF offered Crabtree what he's worth. He was the No. 10 pick in the draft. He was offerd more than the 11th and less than the ninth. Crabtree has ZERO leverage. If I were SF, I'd laugh at him and his agent if they tried to negotiate from their position. Most logical people would.

Worth is based on what the market will offer.

Zero leverage is a bad argument. Crabtree doesn't have to play. That is his leverage.

Crabtree will sign. A deal will get done.

Jamarcus Russel held out the first two games of the season. Bryant Mckinnie held out the first 8 games in 2002. Reggie Bush threatened to sit out the whole season.
Sitting out the season just doesnt happen. It would look bad for the 49ers and Crabtree if that happened.

He will sign.

Moving fast towards those 200 pages

Originally posted by 9erfan4life:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by Blitz:

Originally posted by KRS-1:

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by KRS-1:
Seems most teams decided to fill needs as opposed to selecting the BPA. Outside of the Jets no team traded up into the top 10, as again it is costly especially when factoring in what one has to also pay the draft pick as well.

Or they didn't think he was the bpa. The point is that the only evidence to support the fact that Crabtree was a top-3 talent was that analysts said he was.

My point: I don't care what he thinks he's worth. He's been offered a fair deal. He's holding out for more money that he won't get. What he's doing is f**king stupid. Period.

I bet there are teams out there who if they had taken him at 10 would be willing to pay him, unlike us. Why ? Probably because players with ceilings as high as his being taken at 10 don't come around or happen often if hardly ever.

And FWIW some of those analysts are former players and or NFL execs and know talent when they see it.

The league is full of history of draftee's with ceilings higher than what has come before falling right on their ass and not amounting to anything.

Those draftee's however rarely ever fall like Crabtree did.

Normally when you get a player like that you want to get him signed. Does it really seem like the 49ers really want to get Crabtree signed with their stance ?

Look here's the deal. The guy is unproven, he could be the second coming of Jerry Rice, but he damn sure isn't until he proves otherwise, which is far from an easy thing to do (making the jump from being a top talent in the collegiate's to being one in the NFL). If this was an easy correlation, there wouldn't be much issue to this s**t, people wouldn't fall or rise in the draft at all..they would be slotted and it would pan out the way it was slotted and everything would be nice and tidy. HOWEVER, IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY, TOP TALENTS IN THE COLLEGIATE MORE OFTEN THAN NOT DON'T PAN OUT AS A TOP NFL TALENT NO MATTER WHICH SLOT THEY ARE DRAFTED AT, NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY HAVE FALLEN OR RISEN. IT'S A CRAP SHOOT THAT THEY WILL TRANSLATE INTO A TOP NFL TALENT.

You can't fault the organization for adhering to good business sense. They are investing in a top collegiate talent that is unproven in a league with a history full of top collegiate talents who have fallen and/or risen in the draft and have not translated into top NFL talents.


The fact is this: It's the NFL, it's an entirely different animal than the collegiates....you gotta prove yourself against the best now, every week. If you do, you get rewarded with a big contract, if you don't, your sent packing in one way or another, and you take a big cut along the way.

If we trade him for another pick and that pick busts and MC has a storied career will we still have made a move would we have adhered to a good business sense ?

Is a good business sense to not try and negotiate ? To make one offer and if the offer is balked at to walk away in hopes eventually the other side might cave and if not oh well ?

It's a team sport. Look, I want Craptree signed, not because I think he is the best, not could be the best. I could give two s**ts if he was drafted at 1, 3, 10, 60, or 200 or even came on as an undrafted FA. I want him signed because I want all the talent the team can it's hands on and I want them to get on the field and compete and then I want the best of all those to go out on Sunday and kick some ass. Craptree isn't doing any of that, hasn't done any of that in the past at this level, which makes his value (to me) less than any other talent on the team. Why?

Because, there is a standing system by which contracts are negotiated and signed in place that every single other draftee and undrafted FA in this league this year has had no problem adjusting to. That's a lot of people, and yet..here we have this ONE, ONE out of how many (500?), that somehow thinks it should be a different system for him for whatever reason. That's a crock of s**t my man, it doesn't fly when you don't have a lick of experience playing in the pro's, no matter who the f**k think you are talent wise, or anybody else thinks you are, including all the so called talent experts, GM's, ex player's or team mascots. And, it damn sure doesn't fly when you only have so many roster spots, and the competition for those spots is fierce, like it is in the NFL.

I don't know where are getting this "not negotiating" thin from. The only being done with media involvement. That doesn't translate into there is nothing going on, including negotiations.

Bottom line is that is has happened in the past that a team has negotiated outside of the slotted worth, position of the player drafted is meaningless because any way you look at that it WAS done before.

The real problem here is that there is no rookie salary cap and until there is players & agents can continue to pull this if they so choose. Our best bet would be to try and get him signed and be more aggressive in our pursuit.

From all speculation we have heard it does not sound like we are negotiating at all.

The difference is guaranteed money I broke down the average in another thread.

On average contracts are the same per position drafted like the two QB’s taken last year and this year same exact contract with a 25% increase in guaranteed money this year.

Crabs wants about a 50% increase it doesn’t work that way.

Nobody knows what Crabtree wants.

Originally posted by drama:
who cares about crab i want dez bryant!!!!!!!!!!!! hes the truth

The problem is it would then be the second year the Niners used a first to go after a wide reciever. This teams has a lot of areas that need to be addressed and having to use one of the firsts on a receiver is a recipe that could turn you into the Lions.

Originally posted by HessianDud:

Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Bill Simmons' novel of a take on the situation:

Quote:
Basically, this is Crabtree's argument. He is better than Heyward-Bey. Everyone agreed in April. The Raiders passed for the simple reason that they are the dumbest franchise in the league, as we keep remembering every few months. San Francisco was blessed to get a top-five talent at No. 10. It should pay for this blessing. So far, it has not done so. Crabtree is being called crazy, but really, he just believes in his own talent. He really WOULD throw away this season to prove a point. That's not crazy, that's conviction! Michael Crabtree might be ruining his career and setting hundreds of thousands of dollars on fire, but at least he earned my Miller Lite Great Call of the Week.

what an awful argument. just because crabtree believes he's great doesn't make it so. Conviction doesn't equal reason.

lots of teams had questions about him coming out of college: he played in a spread offense, he never had blazing speed, some accused him of being a "diva", he had a slight injury. Crabtree's skills don't exist in a vacuum.

Crabtree is not the only one believing he is great....our own GM the man who could have chose anyone he really wanted in this entire draft thinks he is great.

FACTS :

-Our GM likened him to Anquan Boldin...in fact from Scott's mouth :

Quote:
He’s the closest thing that I’ve seen to Anquan Boldin in college. He’s got excellent hands. He’s got the physical attributes to play on the NFL level and to make plays.

He’s a highly competitive guy that’s not afraid whatsoever. There’s faster guys in the draft, no doubt about it. There’ll be faster guys in the NFL. But he brings unique qualities—he can play physical and make plays on the NFL level.

-Our GM has called him the best WR in the draft hands down

-Our GM has called him a home run, an impact player who gives us something we don’t have

-Our GM went on record BEFORE the draft stating this is who he wanted most of all in this draft

Originally posted by srenin_evoli:
Bill Simmons of ESPN gives his take on the Crabtree situation. Scroll down to near the bottom of the page and read the Great Call of the Week box. Definitely some holes in his analogy, but funny nonetheless.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090910

Not the perfect analogy, but his argument has some strong similarities to this evil poster.

Originally posted by jame-gumb:

Originally posted by Bill Simmons:
Crabtree is being called crazy, but really, he just believes in his own talent. He really WOULD throw away this season to prove a point. That's not crazy, that's conviction! Michael Crabtree might be ruining his career and setting hundreds of thousands of dollars on fire, but at least he earned my Miller Lite Great Call of the Week.

A. If he believes in his talent so much, why not take the fair offer and "prove a point" when he has some negotiating leverage?

B. Crabtree is possible "ruining his career and setting hundreds of thousands [actually millions] of dollars on fire" and gets a Great Call out of it?
The moment you characterize the offer as fair, and that is the hangup. Crabtree doesn't believe the 10th overall slot in guaranteed and total money is fair compensation, and I think he's got a strong argument.

Fair is a subjective word in your statement.

Originally posted by tohara3:
Moving fast towards those 200 pages

oh yea, 200 here we come