When does Scotty M get the boot?

Originally posted by danimal:

Originally posted by fortyninerglory:
The 6 exceptional players on our team currently:

1. Franky Tanky Gore
2. Patty Willis
3. Andy Lee
4. TBD
5. TBD
6. TBD

personally I don't think Punters count in this type of conversation.

Also the trick is....you have to get the others before losing what you have, it can't be potential either, they have to be established already.

So I think it is.

1. Gore
2. Willis
3. TBD
4. TBD
5. TBD
6. TBD


And personally i think we have no shot in hell filling that list before Gore is past his prime.

I would agree except in todays game there is no accounting for what a good coffin kick gets you. Lee is damn near money on that. If you can pin the other guy deep in their own territory I think that Punter is worthy of the 6th spot. And likewise Kicker if he's money. Kind of like how Anderson was for the Visqueens. Okay well right up to when it mattered the most for them.

~Ceadder

I actually feel that he's had a few solid drafts.

I'd get rid of him for the right guy. Easily said then done though.

[ Edited by tjd808185 on Aug 31, 2009 at 16:06:23 ]

Originally posted by RDB4216:

Originally posted by miked1978:
You fairweather fans kill me. You guys would have called for his head if he didn't draft Crabtree at #10. Hell we would have been the laughing stock of the draft if we passed on Crabs. He also got us 2 first rounders last year.

Actually no, I was calling for his head when he didn't get us a pass rush. Ever. "We would have been the laughing stock if we passed on Crabs"? Well what do you think we HAVE been? When the opposing QB has time for a 7-step drop, grab his cell phone and order a pizza, AND check the scores of the other games? Do you remember the last time we were in the Playoffs? Who cares what Mel Kiper the so-called draft experts think we "should do". The last I checked, NONE of them were running an NFL team. I wonder why that is?

And to the people that say "he got us 2 first round picks NEXT year", that's great. I'm glad to be so excited about next year, while having to wallow through yet another year of mediocrity. This team used to be about WINNING...not settling for "next year"...year after year.

well put

Originally posted by theninermaniac:

Originally posted by RDB4216:

Originally posted by miked1978:
You fairweather fans kill me. You guys would have called for his head if he didn't draft Crabtree at #10. Hell we would have been the laughing stock of the draft if we passed on Crabs. He also got us 2 first rounders last year.

Actually no, I was calling for his head when he didn't get us a pass rush. Ever. "We would have been the laughing stock if we passed on Crabs"? Well what do you think we HAVE been? When the opposing QB has time for a 7-step drop, grab his cell phone and order a pizza, AND check the scores of the other games? Do you remember the last time we were in the Playoffs? Who cares what Mel Kiper the so-called draft experts think we "should do". The last I checked, NONE of them were running an NFL team. I wonder why that is?

And to the people that say "he got us 2 first round picks NEXT year", that's great. I'm glad to be so excited about next year, while having to wallow through yet another year of mediocrity. This team used to be about WINNING...not settling for "next year"...year after year.

well put

Hey kids, let's do something productive. It's called history. When was Bill Walsh hired? What year was his first winning season? In that first winning season, who did he draft? Was it Joe Montana? No, that was a couple of seasons earlier.

Maybe it takes a couple of years to right a ship. Let's see if we can make some assumptions based on these questions.

[ Edited by nvninerfan1 on Aug 31, 2009 at 16:29:25 ]

If Jed can entice Holmgren to sign on as GM, then I'm down for it. You've got to replace Mac with someone better...IMO, Holmgren is. The big stinkeroo WRT Mac is Alex Smith...but that was as much or more Nolan's doing than his. I think overall, he's done a pretty good job. Like I said, though, if Holmgren wants to come back to the Niners, then he's the guy to go forward with.

Originally posted by miked1978:
You fairweather fans kill me. You guys would have called for his head if he didn't draft Crabtree at #10. Hell we would have been the laughing stock of the draft if we passed on Crabs. He also got us 2 first rounders last year.

Amen. These guys are just idiots.

Originally posted by CorvaNinerFan:
If Jed can entice Holmgren to sign on as GM, then I'm down for it. You've got to replace Mac with someone better...IMO, Holmgren is. The big stinkeroo WRT Mac is Alex Smith...but that was as much or more Nolan's doing than his. I think overall, he's done a pretty good job. Like I said, though, if Holmgren wants to come back to the Niners, then he's the guy to go forward with.

holmgren isnt really a good gm though. he was stripped of gm duties in seattle.

Originally posted by tjd808185:
I'd get rid of him for the right guy. Easily said then done though.

Great point. If you decide to fire a guy you need to have someone in mind that's better (Refrence: Steve Mariucci, Jeff Garcia, TO). I feel this is a critical year for his job security. Players like Balmer and Lawson need to produce.

Originally posted by Memphis9er:

Originally posted by miked1978:
You fairweather fans kill me. You guys would have called for his head if he didn't draft Crabtree at #10. Hell we would have been the laughing stock of the draft if we passed on Crabs. He also got us 2 first rounders last year.

Amen. These guys are just idiots.

Seriously - this thread is just laughable... IMO, McCloughan put together certainly one of the top drafts of any team in the league this year and possibly one of the better hauls of the pas couple years.

Originally posted by mavfd9er:

Originally posted by tjd808185:
I'd get rid of him for the right guy. Easily said then done though.

Great point. If you decide to fire a guy you need to have someone in mind that's better (Refrence: Steve Mariucci, Jeff Garcia, TO). I feel this is a critical year for his job security. Players like Balmer and Lawson need to produce.

the thing with manny is he doesnt do what we need him to. he's a good olb and hes talented, but he cant rush the passer no matter and gets owned by the ot every time. scotty has drafted some talented players but guys havent turned out like we needed them to. vern hasnt turned out to be the recieving te he was supposed to be. and then in that draft we went for a combine freak/bpa type oveq ngata who would have really helped our d and that was when we were really trying to build our 3-4 d. we still dont have a pass rush and instead of getting a potential sack artist we still go bpa. hes done some good things too though so well see how this season goes.

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by nekst:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:
Are we so sad now that there is an assumption of sacking? How about making a case for it before inviting comments?

Alex Smith
Vernon Davis
Manny Lawson
Kentwan Balmer
Michael Crabtree

You need your first rounders to make an impact and ours have not made a big impact. There's your case. In defense of Scott M., he's picked up some really nice players in the later rounds. Still, you can't be whiffing with all of the Ones.

First of all, I'm not sure if you're aware... but Kentwan Balmer is a defensive linemen. Players don't normally make a big impact at that position right away. And it's not like Balmer was a top-ten pick. He was picked towards the END of Round 1. Plus, he has been looking pretty good in preseason. Let's give Balmer a chance shall we?

Second of all, I can't believe you actually included Michael Crabtree on this list. We haven't even signed him yet. How is he supposed to make a big impact already?

And lastly, Patrick Willis and Joe Staley are "Ones" too, but you're implying that "all of the ones" have failed to make an impact. That is incorrect.

Yes, I am aware that the non-existant marshmallow (last year, at least), Kentwan Balmer, is an interior defensive lineman, like Gary Johnson, Michael Carter, Jim Burt, Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young, who were good impact players for the 49ers.

I include Crabtree on the list because he was regarded by other teams as a head case and a diva. If he remains unsigned, and the Niners eat that pick, that is on McCloughan. If he signs, I will certainly be rooting for him and hope he lives up to all the hype.

Lastly, I didn't imply anything. Willis and Staley were good picks. The others don't look so good. Experience tells me that good players jump out at you, regardless of their place in draft. Ronnie Lott, it was obvious immediately the guy was a stud. Jerry Rice showed signs very early, despite a shaky first half of the first season. T.O., stud out of the gate. Charles Haley, despite being picked later than the featured pick, Larry Roberts, was clearly an impact pass rusher early. Along those lines, I have great hopes for Nate Davis. I know he's playing the scrubs, but he looks like a natural.

So, I credited Scott with picking up some nice steals in the later rounds, and I did not dismiss Willis or Staley as you suggest in your straw man argument. I merely pointed out the obvious, that many of Scott's first rounders are looking like duds, and that hurts.

TO "stud out of the gate". 35 receptions for 520 yards. Oooh.

Yes, as a rookie from Tennessee CHATTANOOGA, breaking into the lineup and sharing the ball with Jerry Rice, J.J. Stokes, Terry Kirby, William Floyd and Brent Jones, yes, getting 35 catches for 500 yards in his rookie year was an eye opener for a team that was 12-4 and went into the second round of the playoffs. And the stats don't reflect the whole story, that the guy was a raw, physical beast who would fight for a ball.

I am well aware of TO's ability. YOU used the term "stud out of the gate". I flagged it because he wasn't. End.

Originally posted by geturembedder:

Originally posted by WINiner:

Originally posted by miked1978:
You fairweather fans kill me. You guys would have called for his head if he didn't draft Crabtree at #10. Hell we would have been the laughing stock of the draft if we passed on Crabs. He also got us 2 first rounders last year.

Personal attacks will get you warned every time........

That's not a personal attack. At best it is a general attack, and that's stretching it since it isn't even an attack.

Calling someone fair weather is expressing an opinion about their fandom. You feel as if your fan hood has been questioned?

Calling someone a moron is expressing your opinion about their intelligence....no difference, they are both negative and intended to belittle and cause anger.

Originally posted by Ceadderman:

Originally posted by 9er2k:

Originally posted by excelsior:
Years ago, Bill Walsh explained that to be a Super Bowl caliber team, one needed a minimum of six exceptional, game-changing players. The rest of the team did not have to be exceptional, but there could be no glaring weak link in the line-up.

There is no doubt that McLoughan is much better than Donahue (who I think went down to the local magazine store and bought a Pro Football Weekly draft magazine to help him decide who to pick).

However, McL has presided over five drafts, and with extra picks in most rounds, he has had the equivalent of six drafts. Many of our first round picks were top ten, so they should have been exceptional, game-changers. Yet, in all honesty, too many of these elite picks have not produced as well as their position suggested. For this reason, I am afraid that McL has been a bit of a disappointment. He is probably good, but is not good enough to put together a team that will compete with the elite teams in the league.

For those who contend that Nolan had some say in the first four drafts, remember that McL was the talent evaluator. I am sure Nolan's decisions were based on what McL told him about a player. Nolan had to rely on these assessments. He had too much else going on to do his own independant study of game film etc.

NEWSFLASH: *Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep* This just in Scott McCloughan takes over GM responsibilities in '08. He will have final say over any and all personnel decisions that were formerly Head Coach Mike Nolan's duties and responsibilities. You will now be directed back to our regularly scheduled whining session*Beep beep* *bit* *bedeep deep*

So much for presiding over 5 years of personnel decisions.

~Ceadder

Scott M has been quoted that he and Nolan were in agreement for EVERY 1st taken under Nolan except 1 and that one he changed Nolans mind about. He is also quoted as saying the only picks Nolan ever actually made were the 1st's, but that Nolan chose every player he would have in those drafts.

So much for not presiding over 5 years of personnel decisions

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by nekst:

Originally posted by BSofSF:

Originally posted by English:
Are we so sad now that there is an assumption of sacking? How about making a case for it before inviting comments?

Alex Smith
Vernon Davis
Manny Lawson
Kentwan Balmer
Michael Crabtree

You need your first rounders to make an impact and ours have not made a big impact. There's your case. In defense of Scott M., he's picked up some really nice players in the later rounds. Still, you can't be whiffing with all of the Ones.

First of all, I'm not sure if you're aware... but Kentwan Balmer is a defensive linemen. Players don't normally make a big impact at that position right away. And it's not like Balmer was a top-ten pick. He was picked towards the END of Round 1. Plus, he has been looking pretty good in preseason. Let's give Balmer a chance shall we?

Second of all, I can't believe you actually included Michael Crabtree on this list. We haven't even signed him yet. How is he supposed to make a big impact already?

And lastly, Patrick Willis and Joe Staley are "Ones" too, but you're implying that "all of the ones" have failed to make an impact. That is incorrect.

Yes, I am aware that the non-existant marshmallow (last year, at least), Kentwan Balmer, is an interior defensive lineman, like Gary Johnson, Michael Carter, Jim Burt, Dana Stubblefield and Bryant Young, who were good impact players for the 49ers.

I include Crabtree on the list because he was regarded by other teams as a head case and a diva. If he remains unsigned, and the Niners eat that pick, that is on McCloughan. If he signs, I will certainly be rooting for him and hope he lives up to all the hype.

Lastly, I didn't imply anything. Willis and Staley were good picks. The others don't look so good. Experience tells me that good players jump out at you, regardless of their place in draft. Ronnie Lott, it was obvious immediately the guy was a stud. Jerry Rice showed signs very early, despite a shaky first half of the first season. T.O., stud out of the gate. Charles Haley, despite being picked later than the featured pick, Larry Roberts, was clearly an impact pass rusher early. Along those lines, I have great hopes for Nate Davis. I know he's playing the scrubs, but he looks like a natural.

So, I credited Scott with picking up some nice steals in the later rounds, and I did not dismiss Willis or Staley as you suggest in your straw man argument. I merely pointed out the obvious, that many of Scott's first rounders are looking like duds, and that hurts.

TO "stud out of the gate". 35 receptions for 520 yards. Oooh.

Yes, as a rookie from Tennessee CHATTANOOGA, breaking into the lineup and sharing the ball with Jerry Rice, J.J. Stokes, Terry Kirby, William Floyd and Brent Jones, yes, getting 35 catches for 500 yards in his rookie year was an eye opener for a team that was 12-4 and went into the second round of the playoffs. And the stats don't reflect the whole story, that the guy was a raw, physical beast who would fight for a ball.

I am well aware of TO's ability. YOU used the term "stud out of the gate". I flagged it because he wasn't. End.

Hmmm...I think you just want the last word at this point. You are dismissive of the immediate contribution and demonstrated potential of TO in his rookie season. Were you watching back in '96? Because most of the people I was watching with knew right away that we had a steal with TO. You try to diminish his impact, I guess, by showing that his rookie stats weren't as good as his counterpart, Jerry Rice, the best receiver to ever step on the field, and sidestep the issue that the ball was being shared with Rice, Kirby, Jones and Stokes. So I stand by my point. If you break into the lineup of the top passing offense in the league as a rookie from a small school, playing amongst hall of famers, and making a very solid contribution, that is a studly performance. And going back to original premise, please point out to me how the rookie performances of Alex Smith, Vernon Davis, Manny Lawson and Kentwan Balmer compare to TO.